Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[AlastairFraser]

A couple of points.

So called low-cost airlines will pay what they need to pay to access markets. There is no one size fits all scenario here. Inevitably it costs a lot to operate into Gatwick and slots are at a premium, but they do this because it’s the second largest airport in the U.K. Heathrow is for the flag carriers, no airport outside of Heathrow will ever be able to charge what Heathrow charge.

The growth envisaged at Newcastle and Leeds Bradford will be primarily driven by these low-cost airlines. Landing and handling agreements are a two way street, but as I outlined previously, airports like LBA and NCL will agree terms with airlines individually, and typically on the basis of higher volume in passengers = rebates on aviation fees to recoup the revenue from passengers in retain and other ancillaries. So no, they won’t look to relocate.

Ah so essentially, there's no point in a secondary airport for lower fees model, unless you get to the megacity-sized market i.e Paris/London/New York.

 

[pug1]

Ah so essentially, there's no point in a secondary airport for lower fees model, unless you get to the megacity-sized market i.e Paris/London/New York.

Exactly, hence the assumptions made by Peel when they took on Teesside and built DSA were misplaced. Liverpool was a success due to Manchester reluctance to initially entertain Low Cost, and also because it’s by far the largest aviation market in the U.K. outside of London. Yorkshire/North Lincolnshire/North Nottinghamshire just does not compare I’m afraid.

 

[daodao]

To me the east side of the Pennines should be served by Newcastle for the NE, Leeds (and Manchester as already happens) for Yorkshire and East Mids or Stansted for the rest. Most of the area is at low population density and it's madness expecting it to sustain three more small airports in the mix.

While this is de facto what is happening, it does leave Sheffield and South Yorkshire with poor airport access, which is likely to harm the local economy. Yeadon airport is badly sited and while it is close to Leeds and Bradford, access from other major urban areas in West and South Yorkshire is poor. It is unfortunate that an airport was not developed close to the A1/M62 junction that could have served the whole of South and West Yorkshire as well as Humberside, but that isn't going to happen now. DSA has gone for good, so I wonder whether the OP ( @thejuggler ) might wish to amend the thread title.

 

[pug1]

While this is de facto what is happening, it does leave Sheffield and South Yorkshire with poor airport access, which is likely to harm the local economy. Yeadon airport is badly sited and while it is close to Leeds and Bradford, access from other major urban areas in West and South Yorkshire is poor. It is unfortunate that an airport was not developed close to the A1/M62 junction that could have served the whole of South and West Yorkshire as well as Humberside, but that isn't going to happen now. DSA has gone for good, so I wonder whether the OP ( @thejuggler ) might wish to amend the thread title.

I don’t think DSA is dead and buried yet, the City of Doncaster Council are currently running a tender process to appoint a private sector investor/operator for a planned reopening of DSA with the understanding that Peel will agree to a leasehold of the land.

Regarding South Yorkshire and its poor airport access, I beg to differ. It’s actually ideally located to provide the choice of numerous departure or entry points. Manchester being the main one and the one which offers the most airlines and destinations. If anything the surface connections between Sheffield and Manchester Airport should be improved as a priority, after all, it’s not actually that far as the crow flies. Hypothetically had the M67 tan straight across from Hyde to Sheffield it would probably be a journey of around 40 minutes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Teesside similarly, however it has less to a reason d’etre, and its population centres are closer in travel time to Newcastle and LBA.

Teesside should have been allowed to die, but Houchen had other ideas. There’s also a bit of smell around some of his dealings at Teesside Airport if Private Eye is to be believed.

 

[daodao]

Regarding South Yorkshire and its poor airport access, I beg to differ. It’s actually ideally located to provide the choice of numerous departure or entry points. Manchester being the main one and the one which offers the most airlines and destinations. If anything the surface connections between Sheffield and Manchester Airport should be improved as a priority, after all, it’s not actually that far as the crow flies. Hypothetically had the M67 tan straight across from Hyde to Sheffield it would probably be a journey of around 40 minutes.

It may not be all that far as the crow flies from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, but the journey options are appallingly slow and of poor quality, both by rail and road, with all the road routes subject to frequent closures in winter. There is no realistic prospect of major road improvements across the Pennines themselves, although the M67 may be extended to the east of Tintwistle. The premier electrified Woodhead main line closed for ever more than 40 years ago.

 

[pug1]

It may not be all that far as the crow flies from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, but the journey options are appallingly slow and of poor quality, both by rail and road, with all the road routes subject to frequent closures in winter. There is no realistic prospect of major road improvements across the Pennines themselves, although the M67 may be extended to the east of Tintwistle. The premier electrified Woodhead main line closed for ever more than 40 years ago.

I know, and it’s a shame. However I would argue that trying to find a suitable solution to that problem would contribute far more to the local populous and its economy than trying to reopen an unviable airport. It would take some pretty drastic measures to make DSA a major airport, and there are simply far too many fingers in pies which will ensure that can never happen.

 

[westv]

I'm sure this will raise the blood pressure of some on here.

Government offers £30m towards reopening of Doncaster Sheffield airport | Travel Weekly

Same funding was used to support Teesside airport

travelweekly.co.uk

Efforts to reopen Doncaster Sheffield airport (DSA) have been thrown a £30 million government lifeline.

Transport secretary Mark Harper disclosed the availability of a grant in a letter to South Yorkshire mayor Oliver Coppard yesterday (Thursday).

 

[BrianW]

I'm sure this will raise the blood pressure of some on here.

Government offers £30m towards reopening of Doncaster Sheffield airport | Travel Weekly

Same funding was used to support Teesside airport

travelweekly.co.uk

So a Reopening Your Airport Fund, seeded from the Magic Money tree to accommodate perching lame 'redwall' ducks?

 

[zwk500]

So a Reopening Your Airport Fund, seeded from the Magic Money tree to accommodate perching lame 'redwall' ducks?

No, it seems to be a specific pot set aside for Combined Authorities/Metro Mayors to support general investment (google Gainshare Funding, which is what the Transport Sec refers to in his letter). Presumably the mayors will need to demonstrate a credible case to be awarded the funding.

 

[BrianW]

No, it seems to be a specific pot set aside for Combined Authorities/Metro Mayors to support general investment (google Gainshare Funding, which is what the Transport Sec refers to in his letter). Presumably the mayors will need to demonstrate a credible case to be awarded the funding.

It's not 'taxpayers' money' then, that could have be spent on Opening Your Railway, or on more/newer trains, or HJS2, or drivers' pay, or diverts funds from NHS or Social care, but into consultants' coffers

 

[zwk500]

It's not 'taxpayers' money' then, that could have be spent on Opening Your Railway, or on more/newer trains, or HJS2, or drivers' pay, or diverts funds from NHS or Social care

It's taxpayers money in the same way that all government capital expenditure is, i.e. a mix of tax receipts and bonds issued against future tax receipts.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sure this will raise the blood pressure of some on here.

Government offers £30m towards reopening of Doncaster Sheffield airport | Travel Weekly

Same funding was used to support Teesside airport

travelweekly.co.uk

Diversion tactic to try and protect T Ben Houchen.

“It can’t be a corrupt payment if everyone can have it…”

 

[AlterEgo]

Diversion tactic to try and protect T Ben Houchen.

“It can’t be a corrupt payment if everyone can have it…”

Almost certainly.

 

[Bantamzen]

No, it seems to be a specific pot set aside for Combined Authorities/Metro Mayors to support general investment (google Gainshare Funding, which is what the Transport Sec refers to in his letter). Presumably the mayors will need to demonstrate a credible case to be awarded the funding.

That's how I understand it (from aviation forums). Now all they need to do is show that spending it all on DSA and not the rest of Doncaster / South Yorkshire is going to be worth it.... Easy....

Seriously, its just a handful of local politicians desperately hanging on to their "promise" to have the airport up, running and making a profit inside 5 years. Something an experienced company couldn't manage in 17. There's a very long running thread over at Forums4Airports that goes into a lot of detail on the matter. But to cut a long story short, it ain't happening and will likely fade into the background post general election.

 

[pug1]

I'm sure this will raise the blood pressure of some on here.

Government offers £30m towards reopening of Doncaster Sheffield airport | Travel Weekly

Same funding was used to support Teesside airport

travelweekly.co.uk

May I suggest, if you’re going to post in an attempt to gloat, that you do so after at least having a look into the details.

The money available has always been available. Today SYMCA detailed the sources of the funding, that being £138million available to Doncaster over the next 26 years. The mention of £30million per year is disingenuous, that is the amount available from Central Government for any project requiring funding in the entire South Yorkshire MCA area of responsibility.

The problems with viability still stand. Because there is commercial confidentiality at play, the Doncaster Council and SYMCA have only released redacted documents so we do not know exactly how much this is going to cost. Also, we do not know which private sector bidders are interested (if any) nor what the terms of the lease agreement are likely to look like. At this time neither have been agreed. This is purely to show how much public money the authority are happy to throw at it. What is looking likely though is the ongoing costs of operating the airport will fall to the private sector operator. No airport with any ambition will be profitable within 5 years, so they are effectively asking an operator to invest in a capital intensive operation, the land of which they do not own and the leasehold of which they also will not own. I struggle to understand, given the huge investment schemes currently under way at Leeds Bradford and East Midlands airports to significantly increase capacity and passenger experience, how there is any demand for an airport in the middle of those two. This is a viewpoint shared by a number of colleagues and also airport/airline consultants.

This will be a monumental waste of money if allowed to progress. Funding would be better directed at more pressing matters such as improvement in regional rail infrastructure and other sustainable transport initiatives. The easyJet’s and Ryanair’s were not interested before, when the market was more buoyant, I fail to see how they would be interested now, particularly as the airport has already closed once!

 

[YorkRailFan]

It feels like a waste of money being thrown at Doncaster-Sheffield, which could be better spent on more essential projects like housing, bus services, rail infrastructure projects, health care, etc.

There are multiple different airports close to Doncaster-Sheffield; Leeds-Bradford, Manchester, East Midlands, Liverpool and Newcastle. Additionally, both Doncaster and Sheffield have regular trains to London. Doncaster-Sheffield would be competing in an extremely competitive and congested space, both in passengers and cargo.

It feels ironic for Mark Harper to throw money at a project that is a dead duck but not to invest in a much needed project.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It feels like a waste of money being thrown at Doncaster-Sheffield, which could be better spent on more essential projects like housing, bus services, rail infrastructure projects, health care, etc.

There are multiple different airports close to Doncaster-Sheffield; Leeds-Bradford, Manchester, East Midlands, Liverpool and Newcastle. Additionally, both Doncaster and Sheffield have regular trains to London. Doncaster-Sheffield would be competing in an extremely competitive and congested space, both in passengers and cargo.

It feels ironic for Mark Harper to throw money at a project that is a dead duck but not to invest in a much needed project.

It's all about attempted porkbarreling in certain areas to shore up at least some of the Tory vote. It helps that Leeds Bradford was built on a very poorly chosen site (the former RAF Church Fenton would have been a much better choice), but ultimately it's a sop to the people of the area to say "look we are delivering for your area, vote for us".

 

[Iskra]

It feels like a waste of money being thrown at Doncaster-Sheffield, which could be better spent on more essential projects like housing, bus services, rail infrastructure projects, health care, etc.

There are multiple different airports close to Doncaster-Sheffield; Leeds-Bradford, Manchester, East Midlands, Liverpool and Newcastle. Additionally, both Doncaster and Sheffield have regular trains to London. Doncaster-Sheffield would be competing in an extremely competitive and congested space, both in passengers and cargo.

It feels ironic for Mark Harper to throw money at a project that is a dead duck but not to invest in a much needed project.

Totally agree, a complete vanity project and a total waste of resources that could be better used elsewhere within South Yorkshire. It was a nice airport, mainly because of how quiet it was, but it’s gone and everyone should just move on and use one of the many other available options.

It's all about attempted porkbarreling in certain areas to shore up at least some of the Tory vote. It helps that Leeds Bradford was built on a very poorly chosen site (the former RAF Church Fenton would have been a much better choice), but ultimately it's a sop to the people of the area to say "look we are delivering for your area, vote for us".

But it was still an RAF base until fairly recently (I’ve flown out of it).

Edit: Although I suppose that’s not actually a dealbreaker with RAF St Mawgan hosting Newquay airport, although there is/was a lot less recent RAF flying activity from there.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But it was still an RAF base until fairly recently (I’ve flown out of it).

Edit: Although I suppose that’s not actually a dealbreaker with RAF St Mawgan hosting Newquay airport, although there is/was a lot less recent RAF flying activity from there.

That's not much of a barrier, there's surplus RAF sites in the area that they could move to (e.g Linton on Ouse, or indeed Finningley/DSA.)

 

[pug1]

Totally agree, a complete vanity project and a total waste of resources that could be better used elsewhere within South Yorkshire. It was a nice airport, mainly because of how quiet it was, but it’s gone and everyone should just move on and use one of the many other available options.


But it was still an RAF base until fairly recently (I’ve flown out of it).

Edit: Although I suppose that’s not actually a dealbreaker with RAF St Mawgan hosting Newquay airport, although there is/was a lot less recent RAF flying activity from there.

I agree completely, York Aviation (one of the leading airport consultancy firms in the U.K.) have stated as much. Trends are towards a smaller number of big departure points. Increasing costs allied with a reduction in the number of airline players in the U.K. regional market means there is very little to go around. DSA was the right idea in theory but when you have Manchester not too far from the core market, and East Midlands and Leeds having much larger catchment areas, Doncaster just isn’t an attractive proposition, as easyJet found to their cost.

That's not much of a barrier, there's surplus RAF sites in the area that they could move to (e.g Linton on Ouse, or indeed Finningley/DSA.)

Again it assumes that Leeds is going to close, but it’s not. In fact the £100million renovation and expansion is under way now which will double the capacity to around 7 million passengers per year. In addition, ten extra aircraft parking stands will be created, that’s an increase of 30% which suggests LBA management have at least one airline in their crosshairs for a base, and that airline is likely to be easyjet, perhaps TUI will make a return too. Should they be successful there will be no market at all for DSA.

Can only guess at the cost of reinstating the equipment and staff and getting all the regulatory alignment and approval, but I would be surprised if there was any change for £70,000,000 at the very least. This is before they start paying ground rent to Peel and subsidise the operating costs for up to 2 years. When Peel ran the airport it averaged losses of £10-12million per year. Thats a huge amount for the local taxpayer to be burdened with.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Again it assumes that Leeds is going to close, but it’s not. In fact the £100million renovation and expansion is under way now which will double the capacity to around 7 million passengers per year. In addition, ten extra aircraft parking stands will be created, that’s an increase of 30% which suggests LBA management have at least one airline in their crosshairs for a base, and that airline is likely to be easyjet, perhaps TUI will make a return too. Should they be successful there will be no market at all for DSA.

Can only guess at the cost of reinstating the equipment and staff and getting all the regulatory alignment and approval, but I would be surprised if there was any change for £70,000,000 at the very least. This is before they start paying ground rent to Peel and subsidise the operating costs for up to 2 years. When Peel ran the airport it averaged losses of £10-12million per year. Thats a huge amount for the local taxpayer to be burdened with.

Yep, ideally LBA should have been relocated and it gives the DSA proposal oxygen, but we both know DSA is a dead duck. The government are just using it as a political football.

 

[pug1]

Yep, ideally LBA should have been relocated and it gives the DSA proposal oxygen, but we both know DSA is a dead duck. The government are just using it as a political football.

If they could encourage all airlines to abandon Leeds and East Midlands and put it all into DSA they would have my unwavering support. As it is they won’t, regardless of what a local Mayor might think. Hope people get wise to this monumental waste of money before long.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If they could encourage all airlines to abandon Leeds and East Midlands and put it all into DSA they would have my unwavering support. As it is they won’t, regardless of what a local Mayor might think. Hope people get wise to this monumental waste of money before long.

I think you'd only need to transfer all services from Leeds Bradford, but I get your point.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's all about attempted porkbarreling in certain areas to shore up at least some of the Tory vote. It helps that Leeds Bradford was built on a very poorly chosen site (the former RAF Church Fenton would have been a much better choice), but ultimately it's a sop to the people of the area to say "look we are delivering for your area, vote for us".

You mean somewhere like Leeds East Airport?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Totally agree, a complete vanity project and a total waste of resources that could be better used elsewhere within South Yorkshire. It was a nice airport, mainly because of how quiet it was, but it’s gone and everyone should just move on and use one of the many other available options.

Airlines and passengers will choose with their feet, if they still fly from other airports even if DSA is reopened, then DSA is completely useless, the same with cargo, as if passengers would choose another airport, airlines would simply follow to that airport.

 

[pug1]

I think you'd only need to transfer all services from Leeds Bradford, but I get your point.

Realistically, you’d have a task requesting all airlines to move to DSA with EMA still open as Ryanair and Jet2 have bases at EMA, besides, the other issue is that it just makes Manchester more attractive to West Yorkshire passengers, and this is the catch 22 situation.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's all about attempted porkbarreling in certain areas to shore up at least some of the Tory vote. It helps that Leeds Bradford was built on a very poorly chosen site (the former RAF Church Fenton would have been a much better choice), but ultimately it's a sop to the people of the area to say "look we are delivering for your area, vote for us".

The Mayor of South Yorkshire is Labour/Co-Op Party member.

 

[BrianW]

Realistically, you’d have a task requesting all airlines to move to DSA with EMA still open as Ryanair and Jet2 have bases at EMA, besides, the other issue is that it just makes Manchester more attractive to West Yorkshire passengers, and this is the catch 22 situation.

This is the nub of the 'problem'- too many competing regional airports. 'The North' is not an entity; unlike the South east which is clearly focused on London. Municipal ownerships, almost tribal allegiances, and political footballs, ideologies and pork barrels all play their part. This fragmentation has 'cost' HS2 too.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yep, ideally LBA should have been relocated and it gives the DSA proposal oxygen, but we both know DSA is a dead duck. The government are just using it as a political football.

Its more the case of some South Yorkshire politicians using it as a football, the government are pretty clear that its a non-starter.

If they could encourage all airlines to abandon Leeds and East Midlands and put it all into DSA they would have my unwavering support. As it is they won’t, regardless of what a local Mayor might think. Hope people get wise to this monumental waste of money before long.

Even if this were to happen, what makes you think passengers wouldn't just instead use Manchester & Birmingham leaving DSA in exactly the same position and two less airports elsewhere? I'm sure Manchester could easily swallow much of any released LBA capacity, and Birmingham some of East Midlands. Doncaster failed because it was in the wrong place to attract enough traffic, closing other airports won't change that fact. Its time to let DSA rest in peace, its not coming back.