SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Bikeman78]

Because the contract to complete the conversion has already been agreed and the penalty clause of aborting the work is higher than completing it.



The agreed contact has dates units are to go off for the refurb, Porterbrook was asked to defer this but isn’t prepared to.

I really despair when I read things like this. Objectively, what you have described cannot be seen as a sensible course of action. Especially if the 458s don't run again.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It looks like two 458/4 should be delivered to Bournemouth next week. I am guessing that one of them is 458424 post rectification. 458420 has only been in Widnes since 23.01.24, so I am guessing that the other one will be 458416?

The return paths from Bournemouth TMD on Tuesday and Thursday are not currently showing on RTT, but @Benno has previously posted that Tuesday is the day planned day for 458515 to be transferred from Bournemouth to Widnes. I presume 458515 was on this mornings 5B39 from Wimbledon Park to Bournemouth TMD?

Monday 12th February 2024
5Z51 1219 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Z51 1219 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 12/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z51 1219 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 12/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q62 1846 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

Realtime Trains | 5Q62 1846 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 12/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q62 1846 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 12/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Tuesday 13th February 2024
5X62 0524 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5X62 0524 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 13/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5X62 0524 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 13/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q64 1321 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1321 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech | 13/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1321 departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech on 13/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wednesday 14th February 2024
5Q62 1846 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

Realtime Trains | 5Q62 1846 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 14/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q62 1846 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 14/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thursday 15th February 2024
5X62 0524 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5X62 0524 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 15/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5X62 0524 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 15/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Ciderking]

458515 seen at Eastleigh heading to Bournemouth this morning.

5B39 1001 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

 

[55017]

Is there any further information about the status of 458533 please?

 

[Siemens Staines]

458515 seen at Eastleigh heading to Bournemouth this morning.

5B39 1001 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Thank you for that confirmation.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Is there any further information about the status of 458533 please?

It’s in the shed. More parts have turned up for it.

 

[55017]

It’s in the shed. More parts have turned up for it.

Thank you

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This maybe on here already but search didn't throw it up. A FOI was made about utilisation of the 458's on Pompy Direct on 14 Jan 24

Following on from previous FOIs I have made about the Class 701s for South Western Railways, I would like to know how the subsequent cascade of Class 458s will impact the Portsmouth to Waterloo via Guildford and Basingstoke services.

The main issue on the Portsmouth line has always been the use of rolling stock with 3+2 seating (class 450s) that are not appropriate for these services.

I am led to understand that the class 458s (which are to be refurbished to 2+2 seating) may be cascaded to Alton and Basingstoke services instead, largely because of driver familiarity.

My question is: if the class 458 will not be cascaded to Portsmouth services, will the class 450s (that will invariably be left on these services) be refurbished to 2+2 seating appropriate for these longer distance services? If not, then the issue remains.

DafT responsed fairly quickly on 24 Jan 24

I am writing to let you know that your request has been considered under the FOI Act 2000 and that the Department has completed its search for the information. I can confirm that the Department does hold information that falls within the scope of your request.

The class 458 reconfiguration programme is ongoing with multiple units sent for refurbishment with a further unit going this month as the programme continues. There is also an extensive programme of testing, certification and approvals needed before they could be introduced back
onto any part of the South Western Railway network.

The operator continues to work with the Department to assess demand and customer requirements across the network and will update the Department on future timetable plans following the established industry processes. The Department is mindful of customer and accessibility requirements when assessing timetable plans balanced with rolling stock availability and infrastructure constraints.

Make what you want of that although i'd like to know what approvals it needs other than standard testing to make sure it all works as it should after any works visit.

 

[Goldfish62]

This maybe on here already but search didn't throw it up. A FOI was made about utilisation of the 458's on Pompy Direct on 14 Jan 24


DafT responsed fairly quickly on 24 Jan 24

Make what you want of that although i'd like to know what approvals it needs other than standard testing to make sure it all works as it should after any works visit.

What a load of tripe from the DfT. Do they seriously expect us to believe that a unit that's operated on the network for over 20 years in both 4 and 5 car formations needs "an extensive programme blah blah blah.."!?

 

[Doomotron]

What a load of tripe from the DfT. Do they seriously expect us to believe that a unit that's operated on the network for over 20 years in both 4 and 5 car formations needs "an extensive programme blah blah blah.."!?

To be fair, they have already gone through an 'extensive programme' once and if unions have any say in it they'll need to go through another.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This maybe on here already but search didn't throw it up. A FOI was made about utilisation of the 458's on Pompy Direct on 14 Jan 24


DafT responsed fairly quickly on 24 Jan 24

+

.................

The operator continues to work with the Department to assess demand and customer requirements across the network and will update the Department on future timetable plans following the established industry processes. The Department is mindful of customer and accessibility requirements when assessing timetable plans balanced with rolling stock availability and infrastructure constraints.

Make what you want of that although i'd like to know what approvals it needs other than standard testing to make sure it all works as it should after any works visit.

Ah well plenty of excuses there for not introducing the 458s in 4car form.
The bit I have put in bold says to me that they are hoping to find no reason to need them.

 

[Snow1964]

I really despair when I read things like this. Objectively, what you have described cannot be seen as a sensible course of action. Especially if the 458s don't run again.

I think you are looking at it wrong way round chronologically.

The class 458 conversion to 4car 100mph express units came first. You have to ask why it was then approved, that units should become disused when so much money had been committed.

Either way it isn't very good long term planning

 

[Goldfish62]

I think you are looking at it wrong way round chronologically.

The class 458 conversion to 4car 100mph express units came first. You have to ask why it was then approved, that units should become disused when so much money had been committed.

Either way it isn't very good long term planning

The whole thing was bizarre from the day it was announced:

"We're going to withdraw the 442s because they're no longer required due to the fall in passenger numbers.

However, the 458s, which we were going to withdraw will instead be kept and refurbished and used for additional capacity which we've just said isn't needed."

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The fall in passenger numbers meant that the 458s could be used to replace the 442s.

IIRC the new traction package on the 442s allegedly had a fundamental defect which made them unsafe to operate, and rectifying it was not considered cost-effective because it would require replacing most or all of the traction package.

 

[43096]

The fall in passenger numbers meant that the 458s could be used to replace the 442s.

That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The 458s were available (or should have been) as they were displaced by the 701s.

 

[pompeyfan]

Didn’t the 442s only have accessibility exemptions until 2024 anyway, with the government refusing to allow an extension? And so when the retractioning became unviable it became a sensible decision to retaining the 458s and reconfigure them. The Pompey direct has seen one of the slowest recoveries in revenue because of the volume of people able to work at home, and so the off peak is reduced to 3tph compared to 4, and the peak now only getting 4tph compared to the previous 6. Had those gold card holders returned we probably would have seen the 458s in traffic.

 

[D7666]

Didn’t the 442s only have accessibility exemptions until 2024 anyway, with the government refusing to allow an extension? And so when the retractioning became unviable it became a sensible decision to retaining the 458s and reconfigure them.

Correct.

 

[Beemax]

Some government departments are moving from 3 days max WFH to 2 days max WFH from April. Will be interesting to see what effect this has on pax loading and capacity requirements.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think you are looking at it wrong way round chronologically.

The class 458 conversion to 4car 100mph express units came first. You have to ask why it was then approved, that units should become disused when so much money had been committed.

Either way it isn't very good long term planning

I must be missing something. In 2019, the whole mainline service was covered by 444s and 450s. There are fewer people travelling now so why would more units be required? Meanwhile there is a shortage of metro units but money is being spent converting the 458s from a usable metro unit to a useless one.

 

[Wolfie]

Some government departments are moving from 3 days max WFH to 2 days max WFH from April. Will be interesting to see what effect this has on pax loading and capacity requirements.

They are and they aren't.... There are a number of departments and locations where there just isn't the space to actually do that

Oh, and while we constantly get told about evidence-based decision making absolutely zero evidence of benefits, other than unsubstantiated assertions, has been given to the workforce.

 

[cactustwirly]

Didn’t the 442s only have accessibility exemptions until 2024 anyway, with the government refusing to allow an extension? And so when the retractioning became unviable it became a sensible decision to retaining the 458s and reconfigure them. The Pompey direct has seen one of the slowest recoveries in revenue because of the volume of people able to work at home, and so the off peak is reduced to 3tph compared to 4, and the peak now only getting 4tph compared to the previous 6. Had those gold card holders returned we probably would have seen the 458s in traffic.

I struggle to buy the argument that everyone is working from home, as the vast majority of companies are now hybrid.
Anecdotally the number of commuters on Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursdays is back to pre Covid levels

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I struggle to buy the argument that everyone is working from home, as the vast majority of companies are now hybrid.
Anecdotally the number of commuters on Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursdays is back to pre Covid levels

Yes it’s frankly insulting to stand all the way from Aldershot or Guildford every morning and then be told repeatedly by someone else that the trains aren’t busy.

 

[DelW]

I must be missing something. In 2019, the whole mainline service was covered by 444s and 450s. There are fewer people travelling now so why would more units be required? Meanwhile there is a shortage of metro units but money is being spent converting the 458s from a usable metro unit to a useless one.

IIRC part of the aim was to remove the 2+3 seated 450s from long distance trains, especially the semi-fast Pompeys, and move them wholly to suburban services. That was why the 458s are being re-seated to 2+2.

 

[43096]

IIRC part of the aim was to remove the 2+3 seated 450s from long distance trains, especially the semi-fast Pompeys, and move them wholly to suburban services. That was why the 458s are being re-seated to 2+2.

The 458s were changed to 2+2 seating when they were converted to 5-car sets.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anecdotally the number of commuters on Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursdays is back to pre Covid levels

Anecdotally in the AM Peak on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which I have most experience of I'd say it's around 50% still, based on the use of Reading services, which have a had 50% cut, and the ability to actually not be caught in a crush when using Clapham Junction.

You have to remember that SWR has moved from a 10 car to 8 car inner suburban network at the same time as cutting services, plus reduced the length of mainline services.

 

[pompeyfan]

Yes it’s frankly insulting to stand all the way from Aldershot or Guildford every morning and then be told repeatedly by someone else that the trains aren’t busy.

I completely agree trains are busy, I’m not saying they aren’t, but a lot of the routes the revenue hasn’t returned because of the lack of season tickets (although from memory weekly tickets are still often cheaper than two anytime day returns)

 

[Bikeman78]

IIRC part of the aim was to remove the 2+3 seated 450s from long distance trains, especially the semi-fast Pompeys, and move them wholly to suburban services. That was why the 458s are being re-seated to 2+2.

Where would the displaced 450s go? Aren't the 701 meant to work all metro services, including Reading? If the 450s don't run to Portsmouth that leaves, Alton, Basingstoke, Guildford to Ascot and a few local services around Southampton. We don't need 127 units for that.

 

[cactustwirly]

Where would the displaced 450s go? Aren't the 701 meant to work all metro services, including Reading? If the 450s don't run to Portsmouth that leaves, Alton, Basingstoke, Guildford to Ascot and a few local services around Southampton. We don't need 127 units for that.

Where did the 450s go when Reading was mostly 458s?

 

[Goldfish62]

Where did the 450s go when Reading was mostly 458s?

Windsor and Hounslow loop/Weybridge pretty much since their introduction.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Where would the displaced 450s go? Aren't the 701 meant to work all metro services, including Reading? If the 450s don't run to Portsmouth that leaves, Alton, Basingstoke, Guildford to Ascot and a few local services around Southampton. We don't need 127 units for that.

They will always do Portsmouth via Basingstoke too, but yes I agree, I said something rly similar in the thread before.