I noticed that, though what was the 0804 from Glasgow becomes 0745 and takes 4 hours to Liverpool.Pre-Covid TPE services back in from June timetable :- first and last trains to/from Oxenholme, and 3tpd Lime Street to Glasgow Central and return. A welcome and good start .
The relative populations Greater Manchester 2.8m v Liverpool City Region 1.6mI wouldn't agree at all. Liverpool probably has about 1/5 of the catchment of Manchester Piccadilly (yet say 1/3 of the London service), and I think that's being kind.
You can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere.
The relative populations Greater Manchester 2.8m v Liverpool City Region 1.6m
That doesn't tell the whole story. The catchment of Liverpool Lime St is basically just the two peninsulas (and not even the bit near the WCML or Chester). The catchment of Manchester Piccadilly including connectional journeys is absolutely massive and extends well beyond GM, because it isn't "cut off" by rivers and the sea.
Indeed, and I'd say Liverpool has a far bigger tourist pull, especially overseas tourists who are likely to be seeing lots of Britain, and often by train. Edinburgh may be a more useful destination than Glasgow though for this group.That's not to say that Liverpool doesn't justify a better service.
That's not to say that Liverpool doesn't justify a better service.
Indeed, and I'd say Liverpool has a far bigger tourist pull, especially overseas tourists who are likely to be seeing lots of Britain, and often by train. Edinburgh may be a more useful destination than Glasgow though for this group.
I'm not convinced it does.
Almost certainly, so they'll change at Wigan/Warrington/Preston for an Edinburgh service, or fly there. Tourists just work with what's there, they don't get het up at places not having the service they might want.
I think it could justify a reasonable frequency to the Scottish central belt.
Well Chester's services to Scotland and many other locations is also pretty dire.That doesn't tell the whole story. The catchment of Liverpool Lime St is basically just the two peninsulas (and not even the bit near the WCML or Chester). The catchment of Manchester Piccadilly including connectional journeys is absolutely massive and extends well beyond GM, because it isn't "cut off" by rivers and the sea.
Well Chester's services to Scotland and many other locations is also pretty dire.
If you move not so far from the GM boundaries then the natural places of connection would be the WCML itself or Leeds rather than Central Manchester.
Fundamentally the discussion is about direct services.Wha? Take the shuttle to Crewe and you've got approximately 1tph, totally adequate for the level of demand.
Depends which way you move. I'd say the catchment of Manchester Piccadilly to all destinations is probably about 5m, noting that it can be cheaper to go Scotland/north WCML-London changing there due to the higher frequency.
Fundamentally the discussion is about direct services.
The last point is saying Manchester should have all the direct trains because passengers go to connect that way because of its direct trains. Which sounds like a circular argument to me.
Surely most passengers from Chester to Scotland actually change at Warrington Bank Quay to where they have 2tph to Scotland.Wha? Take the shuttle to Crewe and you've got approximately 1tph, totally adequate for the level of demand.
Surely most passengers from Chester to Scotland actually change at Warrington Bank Quay to where they have 2tph to Scotland.
It runs via Carmyle, Mossend and Wishaw to waste 13 minutes, and no doubt is overtaken by Avanti (times not yet up).I noticed that, though what was the 0804 from Glasgow becomes 0745 and takes 4 hours to Liverpool.
A lot of people take services from Manchester to various other places by connecting into Manchester; do you think this is likely true of Liverpool to the same extent?I cant believe how awfully inconvenient the Liverpool to Scotland services are for a city with identical population to Manchester....
Given that that's not existed since the 1970s I rather doubt that (and how frequent was the service via Ormskirk? I bet it wasn't hourly.)
2tpd of 2-car 158s is the most it's had in recent years - that's hardly a lot of demand. And in my experience they were nowhere near full.
You can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere.
Obviously it isn't but that doesn't mean it should have no direct trains at all (e.g Cardiff a few times a day, rather than every single one heading to Manchester)A lot of people take services from Manchester to various other places by connecting into Manchester; do you think this is likely true of Liverpool to the same extent?
People can't have their cake and eat it though; these limited services per day often hinder reliability and it has often being said that a frequent, robust service with good, clear connections, such is the model oft used on the continent, outweighs the benefits of this handful of services.Obviously it isn't but that doesn't mean it should have no direct trains at all (e.g Cardiff a few times a day, rather than every single one heading to Manchester)
None of which is a reason for the Liverpool service to be so poor.
Overtaken by both 1V56 (07:48) CrossCountry and 9M51 (08:00) Avanti departures from Glasgow Central.It runs via Carmyle, Mossend and Wishaw to waste 13 minutes, and no doubt is overtaken by Avanti (times not yet up).
However, it might be worth attaching a unit to the Manchester service every two or three hours.
Yes quite. You have the Wirral which would feed into Liverpool. Liverpool is an extremely popular weekend destination, it really should be better connected.
3tpd near enough is the latter, or not far off.
Indeed, and I'd say Liverpool has a far bigger tourist pull, especially overseas tourists who are likely to be seeing lots of Britain, and often by train. Edinburgh may be a more useful destination than Glasgow though for this group.
Probably a portion every couple of hours in that case.
ThanksIt runs via Carmyle, Mossend and Wishaw to waste 13 minutes, and no doubt is overtaken by Avanti (times not yet up).
Is there a reason it couldn't be 0804 as before?Overtaken by both 1V56 (07:48) CrossCountry and 9M51 (08:00) Avanti departures from Glasgow Central.
The class 397 fleet appears to have been sized against 8 units to run Manchester Airport to Scotland hourly, and 2 units to run Liverpool to Glasgow every four hours, with 2 spare. It would be difficult to move too far from this.3tpd near enough is the latter, or not far off.