LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Wallsendmag]

Particularly given that we now know from this month's Modern Railways that the idea came from LNER and a member of the GBR Transition Team, not from the DfT or Treasury.

My memory must be going I thought this idea was around well before GBRTT

 

[MrJeeves]

My memory must be going I thought this idea was around well before GBRTT

Adding to the list of evidence that it could have been someone on secondment!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Adding to the list of evidence that it could have been someone on secondment!

I don't follow

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't follow

Wrong thread I think.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Indeed

 

[MrJeeves]

Wrong thread I think.

Indeed

Not at all:

Was this member someone also employed by LNER, "on secondment" to GBR?

I've long questioned the ability of some of those working for GBRTT to do their jobs impartially when they're still employed by the very entities that their decisions impact.

My point being that if LNER wanted to do it before GBRTT, and one of those members of staff in favour moved to GBRTT under a secondment, it would explain both LNER and GBRTT being described as being in favour of the proposal. (Though, of course, this is puuuure speculation.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not at all:


My point being that if LNER wanted to do it before GBRTT, and one of those members of staff in favour moved to GBRTT under a secondment, it would explain both LNER and GBRTT being described as being in favour of the proposal. (Though, of course, this is puuuure speculation.)

I think we've fallen foul of a mod struggling to correct the quoting as they moved the wrong-thread post to the correct one!

But on the above point I agree completely.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not at all:


My point being that if LNER wanted to do it before GBRTT, and one of those members of staff in favour moved to GBRTT under a secondment, it would explain both LNER and GBRTT being described as being in favour of the proposal. (Though, of course, this is puuuure speculation.)

I know all LNER secondees at GBRTT and can't think of anyone but you never know.
Edit aha may have found someone,

 

[Starmill]

Ah: the politician's syllogism: We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do this.

To address your question, it's hard to know because instead of an honest discussion of the possibilities we've been presented with a rather nasty scheme as a fait accompli.

Maybe the only way the railway can survive is to turn into an airline style system which can no longer cater for those who need more than the most minimal flexibility.

Or perhaps it would be possible to increase revenue without completely abandoning fare regulation, and without forcing people into playing a lottery as to how far ahead they should risk buying an unrefundable ticket in case fares move out of their reach if they leave it too long - something I personally hate. Meanwhile if you choose to drive you just go.

Certainly most of the supposed justifications for this scheme make little sense to me. Is the only way to prevent trains from being overcrowded really to force almost everyone into inflexible, unrefundable tickets? Are LNER trains really overcrowded because, despite bookings being reservation compulsory, they fill up with people using off peak tickets on trains they don't have a reservation for? (Even though only 11% of passengers are using off peak tickets?)

I can certainly think of ways that fares could be increased in ways that gave passengers more certainty over what they'd pay and without having to plan their lives weeks or months ahead for the priviledge of using a train. Maybe they're impractical but it doesn't mean that I have to accept that this is the only possible action that could be taken.

I agree with this. If LNER management, public relations, and indeed Ministers had been honest about the nature of these proposals, they would have side-stepped the majority of the criticism they're now facing. Of course, there would have still been some criticism - as is more than permitted and indeed perfectly healthy - but they would have been able to rebut this more effectively.

As they haven't done that, I think senior management know they're now stuck defending the indefensible, and they're just too weak to admit it...

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with this. If LNER management, public relations, and indeed Ministers had been honest about the nature of these proposals, they would have side-stepped the majority of the criticism they're now facing. Of course, there would have still been some criticism - as is more than permitted and indeed perfectly healthy - but they would have been able to rebut this more effectively.

As they haven't done that, I think senior management know they're now stuck defending the indefensible, and they're just too weak to admit it...

I think we get to absorbed in whether a policy is announced or implemented in the right way when the main problem is that it's a bad policy to begin with.

This is just a bad policy however it is announced or implemented. As the saying goes, you can't polish a turd.

 

[setdown]

I swear I'd heard of this plan a few years ago, could this be the origin? Or maybe even earlier than this. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...et-rid-of-off-peak-fares.228169/#post-5534793

In hindsight the thread appears to be both depressing and foreshadowing.

 

[AdamWW]

I think we get to absorbed in whether a policy is announced or implemented in the right way when the main problem is that it's a bad policy to begin with.

Perhaps but it is much harder to judge the necessity of the policy when it has been announced in such a dishonest manner and without any discussion of the alternatives (or indeed evidence for some of the more unconvincing claims made as to the problems it addresses).

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the saying goes, you can't polish a turd.

There are ways in which it could be made less unpalatable, to be fair. But yes, fundamentally, big fare increases are a big steaming fly-covered turd however you present them.

Perhaps but it is much harder to judge the necessity of the policy when it has been announced in such a dishonest manner and without any discussion of the alternatives (or indeed evidence for some of the more unconvincing claims made as to the problems it addresses).

That's modern life in general. We seem to have got to a point where businesses and Governments of all kinds feel the need to sugar-coat and polish everything, rather than simply being open and honest about potentially difficult* choices that have to be made and why.

* Though overuse of the phrase "difficult decision" is another irritant - it's often used where the decision wasn't difficult at all, just unpalatable to the public.

 

[BRX]

I'm in this kind of position at the moment - very regular trips from one end of the country to the other to care for a sick parent.

At this time last year I was doing this too.

Had the pilot fare structure applied to my journeys then, it either would have become very expensive or I would have had to give up flexibility.

It's in exactly this kind of situation that having a predictable walk-up fare is a really crucial part of the railways functioning as a public service. There were several times I decided quite at the last minute to stay an extra day or days, or travel up a day earlier/later than initially planned. Knowing that I could buy an off-peak on the day at a known price was incredibly valuable in an already very stressful situation. Absolutely the last thing I'd want when already dealing with a whole load of difficult stuff is additional worry about whether I'm going to be able to get a train ticket at an affordable price, or making calculations about how much a change of plans is going to cost me financially.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At this time last year I was doing this too.

Had the pilot fare structure applied to my journeys then, it either would have become very expensive or I would have had to give up flexibility.

It's in exactly this kind of situation that having a predictable walk-up fare is a really crucial part of the railways functioning as a public service. There were several times I decided quite at the last minute to stay an extra day or days, or travel up a day earlier/later than initially planned. Knowing that I could buy an off-peak on the day at a known price was incredibly valuable in an already very stressful situation. Absolutely the last thing I'd want when already dealing with a whole load of difficult stuff is additional worry about whether I'm going to be able to get a train ticket at an affordable price, or making calculations about how much a change of plans is going to cost me financially.

Interestingly most US domestic airlines offer "bereavement fares" which ease this specific situation which is about the only key one and is relevant to a very small number of people at any one time.

 

[kkong]

Suzanne Donnelly, Customer & Revenue Growth Director at GBRTT said:

"We are making ticketing simpler and better value for money, and improving communications and information to customers, which is what we know passengers want.”

https://media.gbrtt.co.uk/news/britains-railways-experience-10-percent-year-on-year-revenue-growth


Also from GBRTT's February 2024 News Round-Up:

Building on insights from pilots like this [LNER's Simpler Fares], GBRTT’s Fares, Ticketing & Retail team is working with partners across the rail industry to deliver a simpler, better experience for customers when they buy a train ticket.

I'm not sure what "insights" have been gained from this nascent pilot to inform GBRTT's Ticketing & Retail Team "working with partners across the rail industry"?

It's almost as if the "insights" from this pilot have been decided in advance...

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Better value for money" is an outright lie. It should be an offence to lie and misrepresent in this sort of communication.

A more expensive, less flexible ticket cannot be "better value for money" by definition.

 

[yorksrob]

Interestingly most US domestic airlines offer "bereavement fares" which ease this specific situation which is about the only key one and is relevant to a very small number of people at any one time.

It's an interesting concept. Would we have to show a death certificate to the guard !

 

[nitten_travell]

I'm presently on the 1430 Kings Cross to Edinburgh. We've just been informed "if you have an advance purchase ticket please ensure it is for the 1430 service" - no mention of the 70 minute flex, perhaps because none of those tickets are left to buy today at all.

It's an interesting concept. Would we have to show a death certificate to the guard !

I've been a beneficiary of such a fare, it's all handled quite sympathetically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm presently on the 1430 Kings Cross to Edinburgh. We've just been informed "if you have an advance purchase ticket please ensure it is for the 1430 service" - no mention of the 70 minute flex, perhaps because none of those tickets are left to buy today at all.

The fares showing for today are outrageous - nothing under about £150 and they're mostly splits.

Almost all over £100 for tomorrow.

Imagine them proposing to double the Super Off Peak Single, as that's what has basically happened.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Interestingly most US domestic airlines offer "bereavement fares" which ease this specific situation which is about the only key one and is relevant to a very small number of people at any one time.

The wikipedia article for Bereavement flights suggests this is rather less available than in was in times past - and a quick search broadly supports this.

Furthermore in many cases I think actual beareavement was a requisite - i.e. visiting someone who was 'on the way' didn't necessarily qualify.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm presently on the 1430 Kings Cross to Edinburgh. We've just been informed "if you have an advance purchase ticket please ensure it is for the 1430 service" - no mention of the 70 minute flex, perhaps because none of those tickets are left to buy today at all.


I've been a beneficiary of such a fare, it's all handled quite sympathetically.

Advance are not 70min Flex fares by defintion only 70min Flex fares are.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Interestingly most US domestic airlines offer "bereavement fares" which ease this specific situation which is about the only key one and is relevant to a very small number of people at any one time.

There are many other situations where you do not know when you will be returning home, from cup ties to appearances at court (eg as a witness) to job interviews to hospital appointments to other family crises (childcare problems eg grandchild off school and parents unable to take time off work). Why should being able to afford to go home be a lottery?

And what use would a +/- 70 minute flex ticket be if it is LNER-only and you are going to Lincoln, or Harrogate, or Inverness?

 

[yorksrob]

I've been a beneficiary of such a fare, it's all handled quite sympathetically.

I'm relieved to hear it !

It's still no substitute for a decent fares structure though.

 

[AdamWW]

There are many other situations where you do not know when you will be returning home, from cup ties to appearances at court (eg as a witness) to job interviews to hospital appointments to other family crises (childcare problems eg grandchild off school and parents unable to take time off work). Why should being able to afford to go home be a lottery?

And indeed ones where you aren't able to commit to travelling at all beforehand or don't even know that you'll have to.

I presume any attempts to complain to LNER about high walk-up will just be met with the response that if you want to pay less, you need to book early.
After all for a mere £40 return (for now) you can get a teeny bit of extra flexibility.
And if 51% of people said that was all they would ever need, how can you argue with that?

If so, I wonder if, in a spirit of solidarity, the LNER management would agree to plan any car journeys over 200 miles a few weeks in advance and pay a suitably large sum to charity should their plans have to change more than an hour each way?

 

[nitten_travell]

Advance are not 70min Flex fares by defintion only 70min Flex fares are.

I more meant that along with the usual chat about not having a Lumo, Grand Central ticket etc there was no mention of the Flex tickets. This is the first time I've travelled with LNER since they were introduced so I am not sure what is usually announced for them and if the guard does the math for you with respect to +/- 70 min or if passengers are left to work it out themselves.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I more meant that along with the usual chat about not having a Lumo, Grand Central ticket etc there was no mention of the Flex tickets. This is the first time I've travelled with LNER since they were introduced so I am not sure what is usually announced for them and if the guard does the math for you with respect to +/- 70 min or if passengers are left to work it out themselves.

I've not heard any changes to the announcements

 

[lkpridgeon]

Suzanne Donnelly, Customer & Revenue Growth Director at GBRTT said:

Suzanne Donnelly, Passenger Revenue Director in the GBR Transition Team, on secondment from LNER, thought the name rang a bell

My experience is she's very keen (in my opinion from past dealings, too keen) on yield management...

On the upside, there might be opportunities for retail to partially derail these new semi-flex tickets in the future should they wish.

 

[sheff1]

I presume any attempts to complain to LNER about high walk-up will just be met with the response that if you want to pay less, you need to book early.

I expect so, even though the fluff put out prior to the 'trial' was at pains to point out that Advances could be bought up to 5 mins before departure.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I expect so, even though the fluff put out prior to the 'trial' was at pains to point out that Advances could be bought up to 5 mins before departure.

Well, they can be... if there is availability.

The LNER site is currently showing an Advance fare of £53.40 on this evening's 1936 Edinburgh to King's Cross train ("only 4 left").

(That said, Lumo are offering a LumoFixed (i.e. Advance) fare on their 1958 train to King's Cross, which overtakes the LNER train above and is scheduled to arrive 9 minutes before it!)