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London Buses Discussion

Deerfold

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We all know the rationale, and the pros and cons, which to my mind are fairly evenly balanced. However on a limited stop, fairly short service, especially one that is being marketed as an ''express'' (erroneously so imo) it's better just to run the buses. Londoners (and I was one for forty years) can cope with a bus catching up the one in front, even overtaking it, heaven forfend!) without having an attack of the vapours. Holding the bus for no apparent reason is annoying for passengers, and then the poor driver gets it in the neck! Yes, if you got 3 or 4 buses on the SL5 basically all within sight of one another, then take action by short-turning the most behind-time runner, ensuring passengers get transferred. Bus drivers (well,most) are not idiots or antisocial, just leave them to get on with the job. If one driver's name keeps cropping up, then deal with it accordingly.

I'm not sure everyone does (see the post after yours) or I don't think people would argue against *ever* doing this.

The problem is not the bus overtaking the one ahead, it's the large gaps that then develop between those and the next bus.

If buses are regularly being held, that may suggest the timetable may be too generous and needs looking at.
 
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Busaholic

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I'm not sure everyone does (see the post after yours) or I don't think people would argue against *ever* doing this.

The problem is not the bus overtaking the one ahead, it's the large gaps that then develop between those and the next bus.

If buses are regularly being held, that may suggest the timetable may be too generous and needs looking at.
There was an excellent work of fiction by the Booker Prize winning London bus driver Magnus Mills titled ''Maintenance of Headway'' that came out to no critical acclaim whatever in the early part of the century. It was an excellent, philosophical novel based nu doubt on the author's experiences of driving buses on the thinly disguised 137 route from Brixton garage, After reading it, my previously broadly neutral views on the subject changed to basically anti ( with regard to buses, not the Underground.) From a public perspective, I think there's a very clear majority of regular passengers who don't 'buy' the concept.
 

Deerfold

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There was an excellent work of fiction by the Booker Prize winning London bus driver Magnus Mills titled ''Maintenance of Headway'' that came out to no critical acclaim whatever in the early part of the century. It was an excellent, philosophical novel based nu doubt on the author's experiences of driving buses on the thinly disguised 137 route from Brixton garage, After reading it, my previously broadly neutral views on the subject changed to basically anti ( with regard to buses, not the Underground.) From a public perspective, I think there's a very clear majority of regular passengers who don't 'buy' the concept.

I enjoyed it at the time, though it mixed historical periods oddly.

They may not, I used to measure the performance of buses on the TfL network. You could tell when a garage was short of controllers very easily by the gaps that built up on many routes.

Whilst passengers may not buy the concept, they're very ready to complain about long gaps, too.
 

Mikey C

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Taking this to a logical conclusion, you start with buses A, B and C running normally with 10 minutes between them.

Bus B then gets delayed due to a passenger emergency. Do you then regulate Bus A to control the gap behind it, and control Bus C to stop it catching Bus B? Meaning that instead of one bus being late, now all 3 are late?
 

Goldfish62

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Taking this to a logical conclusion, you start with buses A, B and C running normally with 10 minutes between them.

Bus B then gets delayed due to a passenger emergency. Do you then regulate Bus A to control the gap behind it, and control Bus C to stop it catching Bus B? Meaning that instead of one bus being late, now all 3 are late?
The important thing is not how late or early the buses are, but the headway between them should be as close to 10 min as possible.
 

Busaholic

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I enjoyed it at the time, though it mixed historical periods oddly.

They may not, I used to measure the performance of buses on the TfL network. You could tell when a garage was short of controllers very easily by the gaps that built up on many routes.

Whilst passengers may not buy the concept, they're very ready to complain about long gaps, too.
Controllers are the key. One of the troubles imo with the fragmentisation of the bus service is that Controller A at x company has no cognisance of what Controller B at y company is doing over a section of road which both routes may share for a considerable length. There used to be quite a lot to be said for having an astute and knowledgable individual at e.g. John Holles Street/Oxford Street or West Croydon bus station, aided by cars/vans, though I know cameras and whatnot have made some of it superfluous. Maybe all the controllers should be based at one building, at least for routes entering Zone 1. The Post Office Tower would seem to tick the boxes, maybe with a side order of binoculars. :smile:
 

Astradyne

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The important thing is not how late or early the buses are, but the headway between them should be as close to 10 min as possible.
This might be good for the operating company for a contractual basis and boosting bonus payments, but is pretty rough on the passengers who may miss a connection through being regulated.

Passengers may moan about waiting at a bus stop, but they accept it. It is a lot harder to have your journey artificially delayed at the whim of a controller. This is a pain far harder for passengers to accept.

What should happen is the late running bus should be caught up, passengers transferred and then late running bus curtailed. This is not liked by the companies as it is lost mileage that guess what effects bonus payments. It is far more profitable for companies to inconvenience passengers.
 
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Deerfold

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Controllers are the key. One of the troubles imo with the fragmentisation of the bus service is that Controller A at x company has no cognisance of what Controller B at y company is doing over a section of road which both routes may share for a considerable length. There used to be quite a lot to be said for having an astute and knowledgable individual at e.g. John Holles Street/Oxford Street or West Croydon bus station, aided by cars/vans, though I know cameras and whatnot have made some of it superfluous. Maybe all the controllers should be based at one building, at least for routes entering Zone 1. The Post Office Tower would seem to tick the boxes, maybe with a side order of binoculars. :smile:

All routes are electronically tracked with the on-board GPS system, not with cameras. I can see the point of having controllers together, but the KPIs for bus routes encourage regular gaps on one service, not on combined services, and with routes combining with different routes on different sections that can get very confusing very quickly.
 

CyrusWuff

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Controllers are the key. One of the troubles imo with the fragmentisation of the bus service is that Controller A at x company has no cognisance of what Controller B at y company is doing over a section of road which both routes may share for a considerable length. There used to be quite a lot to be said for having an astute and knowledgable individual at e.g. John Holles Street/Oxford Street or West Croydon bus station, aided by cars/vans, though I know cameras and whatnot have made some of it superfluous. Maybe all the controllers should be based at one building, at least for routes entering Zone 1. The Post Office Tower would seem to tick the boxes, maybe with a side order of binoculars. :smile:
This may be a radical suggestion (and would likely require additional staff) but could Centrecomm (or whatever they're called this week) be granted delegated authority to undertake regulation decisions like that?
 

Deerfold

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This may be a radical suggestion (and would likely require additional staff) but could Centrecomm (or whatever they're called this week) be granted delegated authority to undertake regulation decisions like that?

It'd need a lot of additional staff. And would affect the measures that determine bonuses and fines to operators.
 

Goldfish62

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This may be a radical suggestion (and would likely require additional staff) but could Centrecomm (or whatever they're called this week) be granted delegated authority to undertake regulation decisions like that?
If they were to take over control of services all incentivisation of performance would have to stop. You couldn't have operators receiving bonuses or penalties based on control decisions that TfL made.
 

Busaholic

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All routes are electronically tracked with the on-board GPS system, not with cameras. I can see the point of having controllers together, but the KPIs for bus routes encourage regular gaps on one service, not on combined services, and with routes combining with different routes on different sections that can get very confusing very quickly.
On your last point, yes, but with the right people and the right investment and ethos, it might work wonders in certain situations e.g.. and God forbid, terrorist incidents or rail/tram emergencies, or just particularly bad disruption. With the thinning of routes in the Central area, and some dramatic peak frequency reductions too, the scope for confusion should decrease proportionately too. I know re-centralisation is not a 'sexy' idea these days, but I do believe it can sometimes be justified in the greater good.
 

MotCO

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This may be a radical suggestion (and would likely require additional staff) but could Centrecomm (or whatever they're called this week) be granted delegated authority to undertake regulation decisions like that?

Maybe a better approach would be for CentreComm to temporarily take control of traffic lights on the routes concerned to help alleviate the problem.
 

Mikey C

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The important thing is not how late or early the buses are, but the headway between them should be as close to 10 min as possible.
In my example, passengers on 2 of the buses would then have unnecessarily longer journeys just to maintain this 10 minute interval, which hardly encourages bus travel. And all these buses parked at stops to regulate intervals cause congestion too, to other road traffic, but also to buses on other routes as they block stops or bus lanes.

And what gets farcical is when 2 separate routes X and Y for part of their journey may share the same routing to their destination, and a bus on route X gets held back because of long intervals on route X when route Y is running perfectly. I had this a couple of weeks ago, when my 328 was held back, resulting in it being overtaken by a 139 operating from there to same final destination along the exact same route. Holding my bus back doesn't benefit waiting passengers as they have the 139 to catch instead, and instead just pointlessly delays the passengers on that 328.
 

Goldfish62

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Maybe a better approach would be for CentreComm to temporarily take control of traffic lights on the routes concerned to help alleviate the problem.
That's already done by the TfL people who control traffic lights. I say "done", but their responsibility is to control overall traffic flow, but individual bus routes. Chaos would ensure in that scenario.

I don't know where this discussion is going but control of a bus route should always sit with the operator of that route. There's no other credible solution.

In my example, passengers on 2 of the buses would then have unnecessarily longer journeys just to maintain this 10 minute interval, which hardly encourages bus travel. And all these buses parked at stops to regulate intervals cause congestion too, to other road traffic, but also to buses on other routes as they block stops or bus lanes.
In your example it was only two 10 min headways. Controllers consider the overall service.

The issue of buses being held can either be due to slack schedules or sometimes because a driver is simply driving like a maniac and has to be instructed to hold back. Not doing so would cause a gap behind the bus in question.

Last year I was on a 253 and traffic conditions were exceptionally quiet. The controller did exactly the right thing by telling drivers to ignore their time cards and run early.
 
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Busaholic

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Last year I was on a 253 and traffic conditions were exceptionally quiet. The controller did exactly the right thing by telling drivers to ignore their time cards and run early.
Exactly, get on and drive, as in your job description! You'll never encourage people to leave their cars behind and switch to buses on a regular basis if the perception is that buses are unnecessarily slow because of being deliberately held back. None of it is helped by the pathetically inadequate use of bus lanes, bus only roads and bus traffic light priority compared to other countries, not forgetting the iron control the cycling 'lobby', dominated by white, 25-55 year old lycra-clad males, seem to have over the highway authorities, to the detriment of the rest of us, especially pedestrians.
 

Deerfold

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Exactly, get on and drive, as in your job description! You'll never encourage people to leave their cars behind and switch to buses on a regular basis if the perception is that buses are unnecessarily slow because of being deliberately held back. None of it is helped by the pathetically inadequate use of bus lanes, bus only roads and bus traffic light priority compared to other countries, not forgetting the iron control the cycling 'lobby', dominated by white, 25-55 year old lycra-clad males, seem to have over the highway authorities, to the detriment of the rest of us, especially pedestrians.

That works fine *if* they're all running early.

Better cycling facilities should encourage more people outside that group to cycle - I suspect the peak car driving demographic is very similar to that.

Most traffic lights in London have priority for buses, but could do with just being for late buses as many junction have buses approaching from multiple directions at once.

We do need more bus lanes and more specifically bus lanes without loading bays useable in peak hours on them. I used to get a bus in London regularly to my office but the bus lane was rarely used as loading lorries could park in it for up to 20 minutes making it pretty much useless.
 

Goldfish62

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Exactly, get on and drive, as in your job description! You'll never encourage people to leave their cars behind and switch to buses on a regular basis if the perception is that buses are unnecessarily slow because of being deliberately held back. None of it is helped by the pathetically inadequate use of bus lanes, bus only roads and bus traffic light priority compared to other countries, not forgetting the iron control the cycling 'lobby', dominated by white, 25-55 year old lycra-clad males, seem to have over the highway authorities, to the detriment of the rest of us, especially pedestrians.
As much as the cycle lobby annoys me, it's the car lobby which is the main "evil". It permeates the whole of society with such nonsense as the concocted "War on the motorist" any time there's a hint of proposals anywhere for abolishing a parking bay or introducing a new speed limit. It really is akin to a cult in which people care about their cars sometimes more than their own families.
 

AM9

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As much as the cycle lobby annoys me, it's the car lobby which is the main "evil". It permeates the whole of society with such nonsense as the concocted "War on the motorist" any time there's a hint of proposals anywhere for abolishing a parking bay or introducing a new speed limit. It really is akin to a cult in which people care about their cars sometimes more than their own families.
It really is much more than that. Motorists regularly park or drive on space reserved for pedestrians, cyclists and disabled drivers, yet they regard any legitimate non-motor vehicle road user as trespassing on their roads because they are the ones thast pay 'road tax' (which is a lie because nobody has paid road tax since 1937). The media, (right wing in particular) just play to this ignorance which gives those drivers further entitlement in their minds.
 

Goldfish62

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It really is much more than that. Motorists regularly park or drive on space reserved for pedestrians, cyclists and disabled drivers, yet they regard any legitimate non-motor vehicle road user as trespassing on their roads because they are the ones thast pay 'road tax' (which is a lie because nobody has paid road tax since 1937). The media, (right wing in particular) just play to this ignorance which gives those drivers further entitlement in their minds.
Completely agree. And don't get me started on SUVs.
 

Busaholic

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As much as the cycle lobby annoys me, it's the car lobby which is the main "evil". It permeates the whole of society with such nonsense as the concocted "War on the motorist" any time there's a hint of proposals anywhere for abolishing a parking bay or introducing a new speed limit. It really is akin to a cult in which people care about their cars sometimes more than their own families.
I'm not disagreeing with you about the obsession of a lot of people with their cars and their perceived sense of injustice whenever proposals are made to mitigate their worst effects on society as a whole. My attitude has always been that a car is there to get me from A to B, maybe specifically via C, when it's the only or best way of achieving that journey, perhaps with family/friends and/or luggage etc. So long as it's mechanically sound and reasonably comfortable I don't much care about its looks, colour, what's under the bonnet et al. Nowadays, though, my car is one remaining small freedom for me as I can only walk very short distances without walking aids like shopping trolleys, and provision for disabled drivers is cursory in many places. Regrettably, I can't foresee ever getting on a train or bus ever again, unless possibly I was in a wheelchair, but that option would mean me losing my fiercely guarded independent living. Only saying all that so I can't be accused of being a hypocrite!

Completely agree. And don't get me started on SUVs.
They are the pits!!
 

Goldfish62

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I'm not disagreeing with you about the obsession of a lot of people with their cars and their perceived sense of injustice whenever proposals are made to mitigate their worst effects on society as a whole. My attitude has always been that a car is there to get me from A to B, maybe specifically via C, when it's the only or best way of achieving that journey, perhaps with family/friends and/or luggage etc. So long as it's mechanically sound and reasonably comfortable I don't much care about its looks, colour, what's under the bonnet et al. Nowadays, though, my car is one remaining small freedom for me as I can only walk very short distances without walking aids like shopping trolleys, and provision for disabled drivers is cursory in many places. Regrettably, I can't foresee ever getting on a train or bus ever again, unless possibly I was in a wheelchair, but that option would mean me losing my fiercely guarded independent living. Only saying all that so I can't be accused of being a hypocrite!
Oh yes, of course many people absolutely need a car and always will. In your case especially where you live it's highly unlikely that public transport will ever be sufficiently accessible and as such the car is a lifeline.

I have a car, which I do need for certain journeys. However, it's been sat on my drive for the past couple of weeks because I prefer the freedom of using my legs and public transport for the journeys where I don't need to use my car. If only even a fraction of car users did the same traffic volumes would reduce significantly and people would be healthier.
 

H&I

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I like how there is much discussion on regulating buses in the event of disruption but not much discussion on things that would mitigate that disruption in the first place, such as bus rapid transit.
 

londonbridge

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What happened to the proposed changes to some routes in and around Croydon/Sutton, which included the withdrawal of route 455 and replacing part of it by extending the S4 from Roundshaw to Waddon Marsh, as well as changes to the 407, S1 and S3? Last I knew the consultation had ended, some of the plans had been confirmed and some revised, but there was no implementation date. Late last year I asked an S4 driver if the changes were still going ahead and he said yes, but I can’t find any more info or dates.
Answering my own question, have found out the changes happen next weekend from March 2nd.
 

London Trains

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Answering my own question, have found out the changes happen next weekend from March 2nd.
The 407/443 split is temporarily postponed (probably because of stand space issues in Croydon due to the Superloop routes) and the S1 changes happened years ago, but changes to the 166, 312, 434, new 439, 455 withdrawn, 470, new S2, S3 and S4 are going ahead on the 2nd March.
 

talldave

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As much as the cycle lobby annoys me, it's the car lobby which is the main "evil". It permeates the whole of society with such nonsense as the concocted "War on the motorist" any time there's a hint of proposals anywhere for abolishing a parking bay or introducing a new speed limit. It really is akin to a cult in which people care about their cars sometimes more than their own families.
I don't necessarily subscribe to the "war" theory, however there are no infrastructure changes made that improve things for cars and all changes impact negatively on cars and sometimes buses too. I write as an owner of two cars, one bike and a regular user of public transport.

Pushing bus stops into the carriageway impacts on cars and possibly cyclists. Cycle lanes impact on cars and buses. Stupid 20mph limits on main A roads/arterial routes impacts on cars and buses. Speed bumps impact on cars. ULEZ impacts cars, LTNs impact cars, Healthy School Streets impact cars, etc etc.
 

GusB

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Let's stick to the thread topic and not get sidetracked by issues such as the ULEZ. There is a thread on the subject here:


If anyone wishes to discuss low traffic neighbourhoods, traffic calming or anything else that constitutes a "war on the motorist", the Other Transport section of the forum is the place to do it.

 

Edvid

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No fewer than 13 routes in today's tender results. Main take is a good outcome for Arriva with 6 out of 6 retains, including the SL1 (which is on a short-term route 34 contract variation for now).

Results obtained from LOTS as usual.

Friday 23 February

LBSL intends to enter into new contracts for the following routes with the operators listed below:


RouteCurrent OperatorNew Operator
PVR
Vehicles
34Arriva London NorthArriva London North
18​
New electric double deck
36 (24h)London CentralLondon Central
29​
Existing hybrid double deck
66Arriva London NorthArriva London North
14​
Existing hybrid double deck
103Arriva London NorthArriva London North
14​
Existing hybrid double deck
172London CentralLondon Central
14​
New electric double deck
192Arriva London NorthArriva London North
15​
Existing diesel single deck
257Stagecoach East LondonStagecoach East London
16​
New electric double deck
343/N343London CentralLondon Central
TBC​
Existing hybrid double deck
370Arriva London NorthArriva London North
13​
Existing hybrid double deck
618n/a – new routeAbellio West London
1​
Existing hybrid double deck
639/670London UnitedAbellio London
2​
Existing hybrid double deck
E1London UnitedMetroline West
7​
Existing diesel double deck
SL1Arriva London NorthArriva London North
11​
New electric double deck

New electric vehicles may enter service after the contract start date, dependent on infrastructure and/ or vehicle delivery timescales.

The diesel and hybrid vehicles detailed above will meet Euro VI emissions standards.

The start and end dates for the above contracts are detailed in the following table:

Route
Contract Start Date
Contract End Date
34
9th November 2024​
7th November 2031​
36 (24h)
8th February 2025​
8th February 2030​
66
31st August 2024​
30th August 2030​
103
12th October 2024​
11th October 2030​
172
15th March 2025​
12th March 2032​
192
9th November 2024​
5th November 2027​
257
12th October 2024​
10th October 2031​
343/N343
1st February 2025​
1st February 2030​
370
2nd November 2024​
1st November 2030​
618
31st August 2024​
27th August 2027​
639/670
8th June 2024​
4th June 2027​
E1
25th May 2024​
21st May 2027​
SL1
9th November 2024​
7th November 2031​
 

Busaholic

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No fewer than 13 routes in today's tender results. Main take is a good outcome for Arriva with 6 out of 6 retains, including the SL1 (which is on a short-term route 34 contract variation for now).

Results obtained from LOTS as usual.
I'm a bit surprised the E1 is shifting operator, but will continue with diesel double deck, even though it's only a shorter term contract. Will this be the last time such a thing will happen with a mainstream d/d route?
 

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