London Buses Discussion

[H&I]

I was on the very first SL3 bus from Bromley North to Thamesmead at 05:00 this morning! Turning up early in the morning for the very first bus is exhausting, but I loved every moment.

The journey went pretty smoothly. The bus driver did not get lost and drove at a reasonable speed.

Unfortunately, roadworks at Chislehurst had thrown a spanner in the works, and by midday, punctuality was nonexistent. They were turning buses short at Sidcup station, and the member of staff at Bromley North was busy crossing out all the departure times on his clipboard, as none of them had been adhered to.

The SL3 seems to be a pretty slow “express” bus route, taking an hour to travel between Thamesmead and Bromley North. I was surprised to find out that buses are not allowed to use Knee Hill and had to divert via New Road, which added to the journey time between Abbey Wood and Bexleyheath. Similarly, rather than just calling at Bexleyheath station, the bus also had to call at Bexleyheath Library, which added a significant amount of time to the journey. Unlike the SL1, the SL3 just did not scream “express” to me.

 

[londonteacher]

Similarly, rather than just calling at Bexleyheath station, the bus also had to call at Bexleyheath Library, which added a significant amount of time to the journey.

This is to stop in the town centre. Bexleyheath station is quite a walk so it makes sense to stop at the library also.

was surprised to find out that buses are not allowed to use Knee Hill and had to divert via New Road, which added to the journey time between Abbey Wood and Bexleyheath.

This is due to the trees on Knee Hill being low. Possibly also in the incline plays a part of it. When the 301 was introduced they tried to but couldn’t.

 

[Kite159]

Is it just me who thinks the route numbering of the Superloop network makes little sense? Wouldn't it have been better for the Thamesmead - Bromley leg to be SL1 increasing going anti-clockwise (Bromley - Croydon being SL2, Croydon - Heathrow SL3, Heathrow - Harrow SL4, Harrow - North Finchley SL5, North Finchley - Walthamstow SL6 & Walthamstow - North Woolwich SL7) with the 'non-loop' routes (the White City - Uxbridge, Croydon - Central London) being SL8/SL9 [and SL10 for the service to get introduced when the new tunnel is built]?

I might give those new bus routes a run in the next couple of weeks (the Croydon - Bromley - Thamesmead) to see what they are like.

 

[PGAT]

Is it just me who thinks the route numbering of the Superloop network makes little sense? Wouldn't it have been better for the Thamesmead - Bromley leg to be SL1 increasing going anti-clockwise (Bromley - Croydon being SL2, Croydon - Heathrow SL3, Heathrow - Harrow SL4, Harrow - North Finchley SL5, North Finchley - Walthamstow SL6 & Walthamstow - North Woolwich SL7) with the 'non-loop' routes (the White City - Uxbridge, Croydon - Central London) being SL8/SL9 [and SL10 for the service to get introduced when the new tunnel is built]?

I might give those new bus routes a run in the next couple of weeks (the Croydon - Bromley - Thamesmead) to see what they are like.

The numbering goes clockwise starting at North Finchley which would be the top of the “clock”. The only dubious one imo is the SL4 but still makes sense

 

[Busaholic]

Is it just me who thinks the route numbering of the Superloop network makes little sense?

No, I said as much at the time. Glad someone else has reached the same conclusion.

 

[Edvid]

I'm a bit surprised the E1 is shifting operator, but will continue with diesel double deck, even though it's only a shorter term contract. Will this be the last time such a thing will happen with a mainstream d/d route?

Unlikely, at least on RATP-run routes Metroline and TUK are interested in. As TfL proved with the 28,* they're prepared to revert a hybrid-contracted route - even one that turned electric mid-contract - to a diesel-contracted route on certain tenders if they believe they have to.

[* Metroline West won it for £7,581,391 (an increase of ~54% per live mile on the previous contract). The other bidder - London United, surely - bid £8,435,861 (an increase of ~71%).]

 

[Snow1964]

I'm a bit surprised the E1 is shifting operator, but will continue with diesel double deck, even though it's only a shorter term contract. Will this be the last time such a thing will happen with a mainstream d/d route?

TfL seem to have awarded a few of these 3 year short contracts with older buses over the last few months. To some extent it is pushing problem of getting electric buses 2-3 years into the future. Athough short term it is saving money.

The E1 is fairly small pvr (7 buses), but note contract starts in only 3 months time (25th May), so TfL tendering team have left it so late to announce result that they must have been close to point of can anyone organise the vehicles and staff in time. Even getting old non-electronic blinds made up and fitted in 3 months is a stretch.

These days with driver shortages, TUPE often doesn't happen, an operator just has to set rosters so no one works >50% of their time on the route and then no one eligible for TUPE. Although anyone remains free to resign their job and work for someone else, so might be tempted by decent joining bonuses. Otherwise got to allow for recruitment and training (a big ask in just 3 months)

There might be few more of these short contracts, RATP exercised a number of hand backs at 3 year break point. There are number of these whose routes start beginning of July and more beginning of September that are still awaiting tender results. I think it comes to something like 150 buses and 700 drivers across the handed back routes.

I am guessing some of the smaller pvr routes might be relatively easy to find spare older buses for a 3 year contract, even some bigger pvr routes too, but I would guess the need for drivers and garage space at just few months notice, would put practical limit on how many routes other operators can bid for.

There are roughly 1600 diesel double deck buses (not hybrid) remaining in London, and nearly all of them were built 2013 or earlier, so if apply the usual 14 year old rule, very few diesel double decks can do a contract through to second half of 2027, or later.

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL seem to have awarded a few of these 3 year short contracts with older buses over the last few months. To some extent it is pushing problem of getting electric buses 2-3 years into the future. Athough short term it is saving money.

It's being done deliberately to even out predicted demand for electric buses.

Also in the mix is the ability to be able to electrify some existing garages.

 

[H&I]

This is due to the trees on Knee Hill being low. Possibly also in the incline plays a part of it. When the 301 was introduced they tried to but couldn’t.

If these routes were to have electric buses, then the incline might not be that much of an issue.

 

[londonteacher]

If these routes were to have electric buses, then the incline might not be that much of an issue.

True, but doesn’t solve the issue of the low hanging trees. Anyway, it is such a small and insignificant diversion it only adds minutes to the route.

 

[Busaholic]

I was on the very first SL3 bus from Bromley North to Thamesmead at 05:00 this morning! Turning up early in the morning for the very first bus is exhausting, but I loved every moment.

The journey went pretty smoothly. The bus driver did not get lost and drove at a reasonable speed.

Unfortunately, roadworks at Chislehurst had thrown a spanner in the works, and by midday, punctuality was nonexistent. They were turning buses short at Sidcup station, and the member of staff at Bromley North was busy crossing out all the departure times on his clipboard, as none of them had been adhered to.

The SL3 seems to be a pretty slow “express” bus route, taking an hour to travel between Thamesmead and Bromley North. I was surprised to find out that buses are not allowed to use Knee Hill and had to divert via New Road, which added to the journey time between Abbey Wood and Bexleyheath. Similarly, rather than just calling at Bexleyheath station, the bus also had to call at Bexleyheath Library, which added a significant amount of time to the journey. Unlike the SL1, the SL3 just did not scream “express” to me.

I think that given the nature of the roads traversed by the SL3 it would be impossible to describe the route as an ''express'', merely a ''limited stop'' allowing a longer journey on one bus, which it does admirably.

I've been watching on YouTube a speeded-up journey made without commentary yesterday from around midday and noted from it how many SL3s passed in the other direction, and at which points. I wasn't able to spot the destinations of all of them, but I saw no long gaps and, in fact, one quite short one in Bexleyheath, so it certainly didn't appear chaotic. Were the Sidcup Station turners from the Bromley direction?

 

[H&I]

I think that given the nature of the roads traversed by the SL3 it would be impossible to describe the route as an ''express'', merely a ''limited stop'' allowing a longer journey on one bus, which it does admirably.

I've been watching on YouTube a speeded-up journey made without commentary yesterday from around midday and noted from it how many SL3s passed in the other direction, and at which points. I wasn't able to spot the destinations of all of them, but I saw no long gaps and, in fact, one quite short one in Bexleyheath, so it certainly didn't appear chaotic. Were the Sidcup Station turners from the Bromley direction?

Maybe the video creator was lucky to get the right bus. Most of the Sidcup and Bexleyheath station terminators were indeed from the Bromley direction. On one early afternoon departure from Bromley North, there was quite a long wait for a bus to Thamesmead following a Sidcup terminator. I spoke to the member of staff at the bus stop, and he said that there were already a few Sidcup terminators earlier that day. When it did turn up, it struggled getting up to any sort of speed (something seemed wrong with the bus), so much so that the following Bexleyheath terminator caught up with it.

When we did get to Bexleyheath, the bus driver did not wait for the passengers to change over from the Bexleyheath terminator, and the passengers from that bus looked on in frustration from the bus stop as we went around the roundabout the second time.

By the time we got to Thamesmead, it was already past the departure time for the next journey. The driver did not get a break and had to immediately head back. Initially, the destination blind was set to Bromley North, but the driver talked with the controller at the last minute and did a blind change as he left Thamesmead, presumably as he had been instructed to terminate early somewhere.

The next bus to arrive at Thamesmead also arrived and left late.

Perhaps some of the buses in the video you saw had to terminate early at either Sidcup or Bexleyheath. On the earlier late morning journeys I sampled, I also saw some SL3 buses running light.

 

[JD2168]

I suppose that the amount of roadworks & a diversion on the SL3 route at the moment is causing the short running journeys. When the roadworks are completed it would be interesting to see how the route performs.

 

[Busaholic]

Maybe the video creator was lucky to get the right bus. Most of the Sidcup and Bexleyheath station terminators were indeed from the Bromley direction. On one early afternoon departure from Bromley North, there was quite a long wait for a bus to Thamesmead following a Sidcup terminator. I spoke to the member of staff at the bus stop, and he said that there were already a few Sidcup terminators earlier that day. When it did turn up, it struggled getting up to any sort of speed (something seemed wrong with the bus), so much so that the following Bexleyheath terminator caught up with it.

When we did get to Bexleyheath, the bus driver did not wait for the passengers to change over from the Bexleyheath terminator, and the passengers from that bus looked on in frustration from the bus stop as we went around the roundabout the second time.

By the time we got to Thamesmead, it was already past the departure time for the next journey. The driver did not get a break and had to immediately head back. Initially, the destination blind was set to Bromley North, but the driver talked with the controller at the last minute and did a blind change as he left Thamesmead, presumably as he had been instructed to terminate early somewhere.

The next bus to arrive at Thamesmead also arrived and left late.

Perhaps some of the buses in the video you saw had to terminate early at either Sidcup or Bexleyheath. On the earlier late morning journeys I sampled, I also saw some SL3 buses running light.

Thanks, that's very interesting. Where can westbound buses terminate now between Bexleyheath and Bromley? I assume Sidcup Station is not regarded as suitable from this direction: is St Mary's Hospital still available? The War Memorial stand has only ever been suitable for 161s as far as I know, but it's been so long since I was back in my old stamping ground!

 

[Edsmith]

Thanks, that's very interesting. Where can westbound buses terminate now between Bexleyheath and Bromley? I assume Sidcup Station is not regarded as suitable from this direction: is St Mary's Hospital still available? The War Memorial stand has only ever been suitable for 161s as far as I know, but it's been so long since I was back in my old stamping ground!

Sidcup Station, Queen Marys Hospital and Chislehurst Station are westbound turning points.

I suppose that the amount of roadworks & a diversion on the SL3 route at the moment is causing the short running journeys. When the roadworks are completed it would be interesting to see how the route performs.

Also a tree down blocking New Road yesterday.

 

[Thirteen]

I was in Wandsworth and saw a 156T which I'd never heard of but it was like a Dial-a-Ride than an actual bus

 

[RogerOut]

In terms of the Superloop bus routes, have other routes had their frequencies reduced to facilitate this.

A classic example is the Superloop 3 , which covers the 269 route, Bexleyheath to Bromley North.

Has the 269 service had reductions?

 

[Goldfish62]

In terms of the Superloop bus routes, have other routes had their frequencies reduced to facilitate this.

A classic example is the Superloop 3 , which covers the 269 route, Bexleyheath to Bromley North.

Has the 269 service had reductions?

No. No reduction. The only one I'm aware of is the 183 was reduced in frequency when the SL? was introduced. There may be one or two others but it's certainly not a matter of course.

 

[Busaholic]

No. No reduction. The only one I'm aware of is the 183 was reduced in frequency when the SL? was introduced. There may be one or two others but it's certainly not a matter of course.

There was also the 34 with the SL1, though the reduction was less than with the 183. So far as I'm aware there were no proposed reductions on the introduction of any other Superloop routes but, of course, that's not to say that there won't be tweaks when the impact of the new routes is assessed in due course. Still one more route to go, too, other than the Silvertown Tunnel ''express''!

 

[H&I]

Does anyone know why the X68, 607 and X239 (Silvertown tunnel express) have been converted into Superloop routes? They are not part of the loop itself.

 

[chopperman21]

Does anyone know why the X68, 607 and X239 (Silvertown tunnel express) have been converted into Superloop routes? They are not part of the loop itself.

Because they where limited stop services, it might also give us a clue to what the recently suggested second phase of routes may look like. Lets not forget TfL have been flirting with this idea for a while, A proposal for a Route X53 (or equivalent) has been mentioned in TfL papers in the last couple of years.

 

[Mikey C]

Because they where limited stop services, it might also give us a clue to what the recently suggested second phase of routes may look like. Lets not forget TfL have been flirting with this idea for a while, A proposal for a Route X53 (or equivalent) has been mentioned in TfL papers in the last couple of years.

The slightly confusing thing is including them as "SL" services, when the main "Loop" concept is primarily about express orbital bus routes in outer London. "X" is an established prefix for express routes, the existing ones could have been called X1, X2 etc if they wanted to highlight them more.

 

[MotCO]

Because they where limited stop services, it might also give us a clue to what the recently suggested second phase of routes may look like. Lets not forget TfL have been flirting with this idea for a while, A proposal for a Route X53 (or equivalent) has been mentioned in TfL papers in the last couple of years.

What second phase? Are these going to be a second loop, or will these be spokes like the 607 and X53?

 

[H&I]

Because they where limited stop services, it might also give us a clue to what the recently suggested second phase of routes may look like. Lets not forget TfL have been flirting with this idea for a while, A proposal for a Route X53 (or equivalent) has been mentioned in TfL papers in the last couple of years.

Thanks for the reply, but I have not found any evidence to suggest that a second phase of routes is being considered.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Abellio London bus controllers to take further strike action

Employer fails to make improved pay offer so industrial action escalates

www.unitetheunion.org

Bus company staff in London are to escalate strike action next month after their employer failed to make an improved pay offer, Unite confirmed today (26 February 2024).



Around 40 staff who work in the control rooms for Abellio buses (to be known as Transport UK from 2 March) and who control the bus routes, instruct drivers on traffic jams or accidents and ensure overall safety on the routes are to take a further 9 days of action beginning on 7 March.Control room staff, who use high-tech satellite GPS systems to monitor bus routes across London, have been offered just a five per cent pay increase for 2023 by Abellio, a substantial real terms pay cut. They already earn approximately £10,000 per year less than similar staff at other bus companies and have been offered a smaller pay increase than that offered to members doing the same job at competitor companies.



Unite general secretary Sharon Graham said “Abellio has hundreds of millions of pounds of revenue from lucrative London bus contracts and yet it is trying to short-change some of its most vital staff. It needs to understand our members won’t stand for it.”In its latest accounts, Abellio London registered profits of over £4 million from revenues of over £165 million.



Controllers, managers and supervisors based at both Battersea bus garage and Twickenham bus garage are staging walkouts on the following dates: 7, 8, 9, 17, 19, 22, 27, 28 and 29 March



Unite regional officer Maxine Loza said: “Abellio’s refusal to come back to the negotiating table with an improved offer will cause traffic chaos for Londoners.Without these vital workers, buses don't run on time and driver and passenger safety is jeopardised. Yet by refusing to come back with an improved offer, Abellio are showing just how little they value their staff."



The routes that affected by industrial action are primarily in South and South West London and include: 24, 27, 111, 156, 159, 267, 285, 322, 344, 345, 415 , 490, 969, H20, H25, H26, R68 and R70

Let's hope this gets resolved soon for the benefit of all parties involved.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks for the reply, but I have not found any evidence to suggest that a second phase of routes is being considered.

With a London Mayoral election in the near future, no such plans should be anywhere near a consultative stage, regardless of what might be being discussed in private.

 

[Somewhere]

The 407/443 split is temporarily postponed (probably because of stand space issues in Croydon due to the Superloop routes) and the S1 changes happened years ago, but changes to the 166, 312, 434, new 439, 455 withdrawn, 470, new S2, S3 and S4 are going ahead on the 2nd March.

I read somewhere its because the incumbent operator has refused to agree to the change. And the southern section of the 407 will be numbered 457 rather than 443, as 443 will be confused with the 434 which will partially run along the same roads

 

[RogerOut]

I used to drive in London for Stagecoach and this weekend I visited the area for the first time in a while. I had no idea about Superloop buses.

I also drove the 269 a fair number of times and liked the route when Stagecoach ran it, but the last time I drove it was in 2016. Before I moved from the area.

I’d imagine from a drivers perspective, having the Superloop 3 on that route takes the load off the 269s. So surely a benefit to those drivers ? If it means taking less passengers particularly at peak times.

 

[450.emu]

TfL seem to have awarded a few of these 3 year short contracts with older buses over the last few months. To some extent it is pushing problem of getting electric buses 2-3 years into the future. Athough short term it is saving money.

The E1 is fairly small pvr (7 buses), but note contract starts in only 3 months time (25th May), so TfL tendering team have left it so late to announce result that they must have been close to point of can anyone organise the vehicles and staff in time. Even getting old non-electronic blinds made up and fitted in 3 months is a stretch.

These days with driver shortages, TUPE often doesn't happen, an operator just has to set rosters so no one works >50% of their time on the route and then no one eligible for TUPE. Although anyone remains free to resign their job and work for someone else, so might be tempted by decent joining bonuses. Otherwise got to allow for recruitment and training (a big ask in just 3 months)

There might be few more of these short contracts, RATP exercised a number of hand backs at 3 year break point. There are number of these whose routes start beginning of July and more beginning of September that are still awaiting tender results. I think it comes to something like 150 buses and 700 drivers across the handed back routes.

I am guessing some of the smaller pvr routes might be relatively easy to find spare older buses for a 3 year contract, even some bigger pvr routes too, but I would guess the need for drivers and garage space at just few months notice, would put practical limit on how many routes other operators can bid for.

There are roughly 1600 diesel double deck buses (not hybrid) remaining in London, and nearly all of them were built 2013 or earlier, so if apply the usual 14 year old rule, very few diesel double decks can do a contract through to second half of 2027, or later.

I think with TfL, the cupboard is bare (especially with a £117k "Night Tsar" on the payroll)... as many of these buses can't be moved on outside London so much as many operators outside the M25 are buying newer or electric buses. So best they get the last few years out of them in London. Most have been trundling around at speeds under 30, so the engines have plenty of life in them.

I don't know if the 123's 2011 DB300s will get some of Enfield's slightly newer buses or Hybrids displaced from the 243 in the summer (wondering if they are ordering Volvo BZLs if no Wrightbus order yet). More hybrids are on the 476 but their B9TLs are off to the 262 / 473 temporarily. I guess it's a useful stop gap until new electrics can be sourced, and gives garages enough time to fit charging equipment.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think with TfL, the cupboard is bare (especially with a £117k "Night Tsar" on the payroll)...

Said person, who I had to google as I'd never heard of them, is on the GLA payroll, not TfL.