Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Being hydraulic-transmission DMUs* I suspect probably better than any DEMU.
* In any meaningful sense they're poshed up 156s, just like 170s are poshed-up Sprinters.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Class 175 future speculation
- Thread starter Philip
- Start date
Being hydraulic-transmission DMUs* I suspect probably better than any DEMU.
* In any meaningful sense they're poshed up 156s, just like 170s are poshed-up Sprinters.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
No Castles running in the area anyway. Suspect most trains on the Gloucester / Worcester run could cope as three cars (given that 1.5 coaches of the IETS are 1st class), but Cardiff may well be a different matter.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,369
156s are Sprinters too…
I’d say a 170 is a poshed up Turbo rather than a Sprinter. Very little in common with a Sprinter.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I more said 156 specifically because it's a Met Camm unit. Other Sprinters are BREL which would more be the forerunner of the 170. The Turbo is itself a poshed up Sprinter, sort of like a commuter version of a 158...
Snow1964
Established Member
Whilst the dithering about 175s continues .....
Todays Portsmouth - Cardiff
1F18 is 2car 158
1F20 is 2car 158
1F22 is 2car 165
1F24 is 3car 166
1F26 is 3car 166
The use of 2car trains on 3 consecutive trains shows how desperately short of regional stock GWR is
Todays Portsmouth - Cardiff
1F18 is 2car 158
1F20 is 2car 158
1F22 is 2car 165
1F24 is 3car 166
1F26 is 3car 166
The use of 2car trains on 3 consecutive trains shows how desperately short of regional stock GWR is
The "pre local election purdah period" is something which has really emerged only recently. In my time as a councillor (1980s to 2000s) it simply meant that committee chairs and other councillors did not appear on any council-produced material. Announcements were made by officers. So "Cllr Smith, Chairman of Amenities, welcomed the investment ..." became "Director of Amenties, John Jones, welcomed the investment ...".
In recent years the interpretation has grown in some authorities to be "we can't do anything - there's an election on!" even when there's no councillor involvement and sometimes when there isn't even an election for that authority!
But it really shouldn't affect a (supposedly) private company leasing assets from a (genuinely) private company.
Things could be moving very quickly, could be moving very slowly, or could not even exist at all.
It’s very desperate and more rolling stock can not arrive soon enough.
cymrutruth
New Member
I live in swansea and can't help but notice how long the 175's have been sat around at the old GWR 43 works in Landore! What are they actually doing in there?!!!! Speaking with friends and colleagues at Ponty, they're costing TFW an absolute fortune (tens of millions) to get rid off because of the general condition and number of defects, but only went through refresh in 2019... how are they so bad already?
They’re there for storage. They’re back with the leasing company now.
Are these friends and colleagues reliable sources of information?I’ve not seen any talk about TFW having to shell out for defects.
2019 is 5 years ago now. If they are having to pay out, it would be interesting to know what for. The interiors seemed decent (which is what was refreshed in 2019) but it would be hard to say what the condition of the other parts of the units are like.
Perhaps someone with a deeper understanding of the situation could will be able to weigh in.
Anonymous10
Established Member
Indeed they may be costing money but it may not be tfw shelling out.
cymrutruth
New Member
They haven't been off-leased yet, from others comments, there is only the 2 at Ely that are off-lease, the rest are being worked at Landore and on lease to TfW, but seems an excessive amount of time they're spending there if they only got refurbed in 2019.
The refurbs were interiors and exterior paintworks. It's probably technical and mechanical works that's required before end of lease.
I’m not sure I’ve seen anything that says exactly which units are off lease but the ROSCO’s website has them listed and says available immediately, which tells me TFW have washed their hands of them totally.
Although presumably anything that the current lessee will gladly wash their hands of the minute someone says “I want them” would also be “available immediately” since in this context “immediately” does not mean “to form the next train to Bugglesby Junction in 10 minutes”.
The_Train
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 4,373
Exactly this. I'm no expert but I would presume it is a situation where TfW remain the lease holders until the end of the current agreement or until suitable alternatives are found. And if suitable alternatives are found, I doubt TfW will be wanting to argue against the fleet being moved on and off their books. It's win-win for the ROSCO then as they continue to earn from the fleet
This FOI states that the lease was extended to 1st of June 2023.
I can’t find anything to say that it was further extended (hence why they were all taken out of service last year despite the struggles to have a sufficient fleet available).
Interestingly it also seems that the lease end for the 158’s ends in November this year, which might explain why I keep hearing lots of talk at the depot about 197’s being pushed for this year on the Cambrian.
Snow1964
Established Member
I guess if lease has ended there is no more rent, although it is not clear if it is Rosco choice where to store them. Presumably they haven't bothered to drive or tow them to their own storage yard, and have rented siding space where they are instead.
As for 158s it is possible haven't got a short extension, if you were a Rosco and had choice between renting out to TfW for few extra weeks/months, or to someone else that wants them for few years, bit of a no brainer commercially.
I have seen videos of a few 175’s being dragged by 37’s but not been keeping up with where too.
Absolutely the ROSCO will want a longer term home form them. GWR are crying out for more DMU stock (rumours of 175’s going, but I’m sure they would prefer 158’s as no training needed and compatible with their existing stock) or Northern as well could be interested so definitely prospects that they could be looking at.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,369
I think there is a misunderstanding here of the leasing arrangements. While there is a lease end date, there is provision in the leasing contracts about return condition If the trains are in not good enough condition (they should be both operable and in condition commensurate with their position in the maintenance cycle) then the TOC has to carry out (or pay for) the dilapidation repairs to return it to an acceptable condition AND will continue paying lease charges until such time as the owner will accept them back as being in suitable condition. This is where most of the Class 175 fleet is now - awaiting handback acceptance.
It’s not the first time this happened, Freightliner had to lease 57001 for many months extra while it was awaiting repair and DRS still have 57301 on lease now as Porterbrook haven’t accepted it back due to condition.
That’s interesting! Thanks for the info.
Sounds like it’s mostly unavoidable then.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,369
Arguably it's not unavoidable! If TfW had been managing CAF's maintenance of the fleet more robustly, they likely wouldn't be in this position. It's an interesting question if TfW are actually paying, or if they're passing the cost on to CAF.
Probably a lot going on behind the scenes to truly know what is truly going on.
It's probably more realistic that GWR will lease TfW's 158s this year than the 175s.
All depends if TFW can get the ERTMS 197’s in to service and get the 158’s gone.
The 175’s are out of TFW’s active fleet so they’re guaranteed available (assuming someone else isn’t snapping them up first).
Plenty of GWR crews already sign 158’s and are route cleared for wherever needed, plus being compatible with the already existing 158 and 150 fleet means flexibility would be greater and personally I think the better choice in terms of the 2 types of rolling stock. However if they can’t be available to GWR in a reasonable time frame then I think the 175’s are perfectly suitable and just having the extra capacity is the main priority. I also think that if the 175’s are what they’re getting, it would be really nice to see them by the summertime for all the holiday traveler's.
Every bad experience convinces people to not use the railway, so the sooner it ends the better for everyone.
dk1
Veteran Member
I think you’d be looking at Summer 2025 would be your earliest likely opportunity to get 175s in traffic with GWR if that option was even considered. The training involved for maintenance and traincrew is vast.
HamworthyGoods
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2019
- Messages
- 3,963
Which does tie in with the end of HST working in Cornwall.
It's been mentioned elsewhere that the TfW 158s are odds-on to end up at Northern, not GWR.
Yeah with training not having started for 175’s yet I don’t think This summer would be realistic.
It seemed to be ‘well known’ that the aim was December 2025 and could possibly be later for 197’s on the Cambrian and if that held true then 175’s would still end up with GWR much sooner than TFW’s 158’s.
But with the talk of getting 197’s on the Cambrian this year then the 158’s could be released and with GWR around the same time potentially.
What I have heard has come from people close to the 197 project but that’s doesn’t necessarily mean it will happen.
Still no confirmation though, as the same for 175’s or 158’s for GWR.
All we know is that GWR are going to be acquiring some sort of additional stock.
Has anything like that been confirmed for Northern ?
Also the 158's end of leases might be somewhat different to the 175's. Only Alstom/CAF were able to maintain the 175's and the depot wasn't big enough to accommodate both types, whereas TFW's own staff maintain the 158s. I'm guessing Machylleth Depot will transfer to CAF so will be unable to maintain the 158's prior to hand back, but Canton and even Holyhead/Crewe could do 158 works rather than relying on Landore which could speed things up.
It's also been mentioned that there will be an almost instant swap from 158's to 197's. Whether that will mean TFW will instantly withdraw the 158s remains to be seen.
It's also been mentioned that there will be an almost instant swap from 158's to 197's. Whether that will mean TFW will instantly withdraw the 158s remains to be seen.
Interesting points! I’m told Machynlleth will have CAF staff posted there but I believe it will remain under TFW. I suppose also with GWR’s depots being able to do stuff on 158’s that could again help get things moving a bit quicker.
Latest plan is to just swap Cambrian operations from 158 to 197 overnight, the plan has been changed once before and then changed back again so could change again in the future.