Class 175 future speculation

[Philip]

I thought I'd make a thread to discuss/post ideas or rumours about where the 175 fleet will end up after they leave TfW.

Will the fleet be split between operators? Will it be to one or more of the rumoured suspects (EWR, Northern, GWR, ScotRail, Chiltern, Cross Country), or any other TOC you can see taking them on (including TfW keeping them), or even scrappage?

They are due to leave the Welsh franchise this time next year; from previous posts it seems 197s may start to replace them towards the end of this year, probably on North Wales services to start with (in time for the December timetable change?) and then a gradual introduction on Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales over the first few months of next year.

 

[Nym]

I'd say that anyone who thinks the 197s will be anywhere near that delivery timescale will be living in hopes.

Given the recent change to "GBR" etc, they may well just end up staying with the Wales and Borers franchise in exchange for the Turbostars to EMR if there's any level of sense being applied nationally. So of course, that won't happen.

 

[RobShipway]

Until recently, I had thought that the class 175's might go to Southern to replace the class 171's that might have been going to EMR. However, I believe other arrangements have now been made that would see the class 171 units stay with Southern. So like Nym says I can now see the class 175's staying with Transport for Wales as they know the history of these units better than they do the class 170's.

If the class 175's are kept on, then they are more likely to be kept on the North Wales to Manchester/South Wales routes. I am expecting that the class 197's will replace the class 150/153 units first, then the class 158's.

That having been said you do have the class 756 tri - mode units being introduced within the next two years, which is suppose to be replacing Classes 150/153/170 & 769, but these may also help to replace the class 175 units as well.

So you may find the following happens, the class 197's are introduced and replace the class 170's which go to EMR, the class 150/153 units which either go to preserved lines or get scrapped. The class 175's and 769's get replaced by the class 756 trains. The class 769's go to Great Western, as do the class 175 units to replace class 150 and 158 units.

 

[JonathanH]

So like Nym says I can now see the class 175's staying with Transport for Wales as they know the history of these units better than they do the class 170's.

Isn't there the problem that the dedicated depot at Chester is being transferred to CAF? How does maintenance work by TfW split between Chester and Canton?

Thoughts had been that EWR would consider the 3-car 175s but it appears from other threads that their procurement of '12-14 3-car units' for Oxford to Milton Keynes / Bedford has become 6 2-car 196s to run Oxford to Milton Keynes borrowed from WMR.

 

[RobShipway]

Isn't there the problem that the dedicated depot at Chester is being transferred to CAF? How does maintenance work by TfW split between Chester and Canton?

Thoughts had been that EWR would consider the 3-car 175s but it appears from other threads that their procurement of '12-14 3-car units' for Oxford to Milton Keynes / Bedford has become 6 2-car 196s to run Oxford to Milton Keynes borrowed from WMR.

The depot maybe going to CAF, but you still would have the existing staff which are being kept on I believe that would have existing knowledge on maintaining the class 175 units. This is certainly what has happened with other depots taken over by train manufacturers elsewhere in the country that have previously been maintaining a TOC's fleet.

 

[JonathanH]

The depot maybe going to CAF, but you still would have the existing staff which are being kept on I believe that would have existing knowledge on maintaining the class 175 units. This is certainly what has happened with other depots taken over by train manufacturers elsewhere in the country that have previously been maintaining a TOC's fleet.

Yes, I agree - the staff would transfer - my question was rather more whether they would have capacity at Chester to be both the main depot for 197s and maintain 175s as well. Isn't Crewe the main maintenance facility (operated by Arriva) in the north of the TfW area for 'other' units?

 

[RobShipway]

Yes, I agree - the staff would transfer - my question was rather more whether they would have capacity at Chester to be both the main depot for 197s and maintain 175s as well. Isn't Crewe the main maintenance facility (operated by Arriva) in the north of the TfW area for 'other' units?

Are the class 197's going to be maintained just at Chester? I am sure that I read somewhere that the class 197's would be maintained at Machynlleth TMD and Cardiff Canton TMD as well. That being the case, I suspect that there could be capacity to keep the class 175's maintained at Chester as well.

 

[JonathanH]

Are the class 197's going to be maintained just at Chester? I am sure that I read somewhere that the class 197's would be maintained at Machynlleth TMD and Cardiff Canton TMD as well.

We are at cross purposes. Of course they are going to be maintained at other locations just as the 175s are - I wrote 'main depot'. The 197 fleet is larger than the 175 fleet.

As depots go, Chester always looks a bit small to me but maybe with a different balance 175s staying with TfW works (or TfW / Arriva Traincare have enough accumulated knowledge)

 

[E100]

Personally and with a bias I would base them at Heaton and let northern use them to strengthen / routes and perhaps displace 156/158s (cause them to be withdrawn). Off the top of my head I think it could potentially work well with the numbers of 175's available being somewhat similar to the number of units based there currently. The extra speed on Morpeth runs would be useful

 

[Philip]

Relating to staying with TfW, will they be allowed to remain on the Manchester services considering the door arrangement on the units isn't wanted at Manchester platforms 13/14 or at Crewe? Also the South Wales services have been specified for a first class provision which will only be available on some 197s.

 

[wobman]

The depot maybe going to CAF, but you still would have the existing staff which are being kept on I believe that would have existing knowledge on maintaining the class 175 units. This is certainly what has happened with other depots taken over by train manufacturers elsewhere in the country that have previously been maintaining a TOC's fleet.

One big problem at Alstom Chester is the small size of the depot, to take on 2 separate fleets that are so different would require a big expansion of the site.

 

[The Planner]

We are at cross purposes. Of course they are going to be maintained at other locations just as the 175s are - I wrote 'main depot'. The 197 fleet is larger than the 175 fleet.

As depots go, Chester always looks a bit small to me but maybe with a different balance 175s staying with TfW works (or TfW / Arriva Traincare have enough accumulated knowledge)

Chester is planned to be expanded as far as I know.

Relating to staying with TfW, will they be allowed to remain on the Manchester services considering the door arrangement on the units isn't wanted at Manchester platforms 13/14 or at Crewe? Also the South Wales services have been specified for a first class provision which will only be available on some 197s.

Don't see why the door arrangement creates any issues at Crewe.

 

[wobman]

Relating to staying with TfW, will they be allowed to remain on the Manchester services considering the door arrangement on the units isn't wanted at Manchester platforms 13/14 or at Crewe? Also the South Wales services have been specified for a first class provision which will only be available on some 197s.

The first class provision of the new rolling stock may be covered by the extra mk4's TFW are getting, the ex GC stock will be utilised on the S Wales to Manchester route.

 

[RobShipway]

We are at cross purposes. Of course they are going to be maintained at other locations just as the 175s are - I wrote 'main depot'. The 197 fleet is larger than the 175 fleet.

As depots go, Chester always looks a bit small to me but maybe with a different balance 175s staying with TfW works (or TfW / Arriva Traincare have enough accumulated knowledge)

With class 756 units being introduced as well s the class 197's as I stated I could see the class 175's only staying for a short time if they did stay. I could see them going to GWR along with the class 769 units to replace the class 150/158 units that GWR has in it's fleet.

Relating to staying with TfW, will they be allowed to remain on the Manchester services considering the door arrangement on the units isn't wanted at Manchester platforms 13/14 or at Crewe? Also the South Wales services have been specified for a first class provision which will only be available on some 197s.

Well, unless TfW keep hold of their class 158 & 170 units, and release the class 175 units first I cannot see that TfW would have a choice with the like of EMR needing class 170 units. I don't think that there would be enough class 158's to work alongside the class 197's to maintain the route. There is also the point that I believe that TfW are obtaining more in the way of loco hauled Mk4 coaches which would be covering on the South wales services, so that you would have your first class provision.

Personally and with a bias I would base them at Heaton and let northern use them to strengthen / routes and perhaps displace 156/158s (cause them to be withdrawn). Off the top of my head I think it could potentially work well with the numbers of 175's available being somewhat similar to the number of units based there currently. The extra speed on Morpeth runs would be useful

If my calculation is correct, Northern has 53 class 158 units. There is 27 class 175 units. How are you going to replace the other 26 class 158 units? Then you have the 54 class 156 units to replace as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Northern would make sense, but I'd probably use them to supplement the fleet which is still too small, and maybe retire a few 156s.

They could go on non Castlefield longer distance services, allowing 195s to be moved to services with more stops e.g. the CLC, to speed them up.

 

[43096]

The class 769's go to Great Western, as do the class 175 units to replace class 150 and 158 units.

The priority for GWR fleet replacement will be the 2+4 HST sets - they are expensive to run and maintain, as Ian Walmsley explains in the current Modern Railways. The 175s would be one choice, but the most flexible option would be 158s from EMR and TfW to give fleet compatibility.

 

[RobShipway]

The priority for GWR fleet replacement will be the 2+4 HST sets - they are expensive to run and maintain, as Ian Walmsley explains in the current Modern Railways. The 175s would be one choice, but the most flexible option would be 158s from EMR and TfW to give fleet compatibility.

Thanks 43096. I though that might be the case. Hence why I do wonder if TfW will keep a hold of the 175's as I do not believe that they will have enough class 197 units to replace the 158's, 170's and 175's.

 

[43096]

Thanks 43096. I though that might be the case. Hence why I do wonder if TfW will keep a hold of the 175's as I do not believe that they will have enough class 197 units to replace the 158's, 170's and 175's.

Don't forget TfW are taking 4 extra Mark 4 sets compared to their original plans, too.

 

[Philip]

Chester is planned to be expanded as far as I know.


Don't see why the door arrangement creates any issues at Crewe.

I can remember Crewe being mentioned a couple of years ago as unsuitable for the door arrangement of 175s.

And there is the issue of first class provision, 175s aren't having first class added to them.

 

[The Planner]

I can remember Crewe being mentioned a couple of years ago as unsuitable for the door arrangement of 175s.

And there is the issue of first class provision, 175s aren't having first class added to them.

If Crewe is unsuitable for 175s, its unsuitable for any end door stock such as Pendos and Voyagers.

 

[Philip]

If Crewe is unsuitable for 175s, its unsuitable for any end door stock such as Pendos and Voyagers.

It's not just the location of the doors; at a guess I'd say 175 doors are narrower and the vestibule corridor opposite the disabled toilet has less space than the vestibule area on Avanti stock.

 

[RobShipway]

Don't forget TfW are taking 4 extra Mark 4 sets compared to their original plans, too.

True, plus the Stadler class 231 and 756 units when they are introduced.

 

[Elecman]

Relating to staying with TfW, will they be allowed to remain on the Manchester services considering the door arrangement on the units isn't wanted at Manchester platforms 13/14 or at Crewe? Also the South Wales services have been specified for a first class provision which will only be available on some 197s.

You could couple a few 3 car and a 2 car sets together to form a 5 car train and convert a section of the 3 car unit into First class

 

[MattRat]

If my calculation is correct, Northern has 53 class 158 units. There is 27 class 175 units. How are you going to replace the other 26 class 158 units? Then you have the 54 class 156 units to replace as well.

And how many 158s do other operators have then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can remember Crewe being mentioned a couple of years ago as unsuitable for the door arrangement of 175s.

And there is the issue of first class provision, 175s aren't having first class added to them.

Crewe is not unsuitable, evidenced by the fact that 175s serve it on the Cardiff-Manchester using them. It's Castlefield.

 

[Philip]

Crewe is not unsuitable, evidenced by the fact that 175s serve it on the Cardiff-Manchester using them. It's Castlefield.

I can still remember it being mentioned possibly on this forum. But I agree that the platforms at Crewe look big enough to cope.

It's by the the by anyway because they're not being fitted with the required first class section in the refurbishment, so will have to leave the South Wales route as well as the Castlefield services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can still remember it being mentioned possibly on this forum. But I agree that the platforms at Crewe look big enough to cope.

It isn't about what the platforms look like - the fact is that they actually do serve Crewe now!

I wonder is one of the short shuttle bays perhaps an issue which has led to this discussion?

It's by the the by anyway because they're not being fitted with the required first class section in the refurbishment, so will have to leave the South Wales route as well as the Castlefield services.

They are not planned to remain with TfW at all as things stand. If that were to change, then swapping some seats for First Class style ones is hardly the biggest thing the world has ever seen. I'd probably suggest that Manchester (or Holyhead) to South Wales would be a very suitable route if they did.

The other sensible place is Northern to operate non Castlefield long distance services, releasing 195s.

197s could directly replace the planned 170s then, gaining performance and fuel economy.

 

[RobShipway]

And how many 158s do other operators have then?

You can see for yourself by looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_158

But the number of class 158's with other operators has no bearing on what is being speculated to what will happen with class 175 units, unless an operator is swapping their class 158 units for said class 175 units.

With regards to the class 175 units at Crewe, I believe there may have been some issues with bay platforms 9 & 10. However, the class 175 units are used from time to time on the Crewe - Holyhead route.

 

[wobman]

Keeping the 175's would be beneficial for TFW but heavy maintenance could be an issue, especially as Alstom will be a CAF depot at Chester. Chester depots small size goes against it, this issue could be the main stumbling block.

The 175's are nice long distance units and the refurbished units have been completed to a high standard. That could extend their lifespan for a few years and could encourage TFW to find a solution to keeping them

I've don't know of problems at Crewe with 175's, they are used a numerous services in and out of Crewe throughout the day.
The only issue with TFW services at Crewe has been busy services using platform 9 and passengers not observing the yellow line for services using the adjacent to platform 6.
I know Avanti request TFW use platform 10 but it's only long enough for a 3 car unit and that also causes issues at Crewe on busy days.

 

[MattRat]

Keeping the 175's would be beneficial for TFW but heavy maintenance could be an issue, especially as Alstom will be a CAF depot at Chester. Chester depots small size goes against it, this issue could be the main stumbling block.

The 175's are nice long distance units and the refurbished units have been completed to a high standard. That could extend their lifespan for a few years and could encourage TFW to find a solution to keeping them

I've don't know of problems at Crewe with 175's, they are used a numerous services in and out of Crewe throughout the day.
The only issue with TFW services at Crewe has been busy services using platform 9 and passengers not observing the yellow line for services using the adjacent to platform 6.
I know Avanti request TFW use platform 10 but it's only long enough for a 3 car unit and that also causes issues at Crewe on busy days.

Maintenance is important regardless of where they go. I suppose that narrows down where they'll end up though, which would be places with the facilities to easily maintain them. Also I thought platform allocation was the duty of Network rail, not private operators, and if Avanti are trying to push TFW around, that would mean they could then go to Network rail to solve the dispute.