Class 175 future speculation

[PHILIPE]

You can see for yourself by looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_158

But the number of class 158's with other operators has no bearing on what is being speculated to what will happen with class 175 units, unless an operator is swapping their class 158 units for said class 175 units.

With regards to the class 175 units at Crewe, I believe there may have been some issues with bay platforms 9 & 10. However, the class 175 units are used from time to time on the Crewe - Holyhead route.

From time to time ? 175s work daily between Crewe and Holyhead but usually at night when the shuttle has finished. However, they work very frequently throughout the day on Sundays.

 

[RobShipway]

From time to time ? 175s work daily between Crewe and Holyhead but usually at night when the shuttle has finished. However, they work very frequently throughout the day on Sundays.

I have very rarely seen them doing the Crewe and Holyhead trains when I have viewed the Railcam camera. It has mostly been class 158's doing the Crewe - Holyhead trains with class 153 units doing Crewe to Chester shuttle services.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have very rarely seem them doing the Crewe and Holyhead trains when I have viewed the Railcam camera. It has mostly been class 158's doing the Crewe - Holyhead trains with class 153 units doing Crewe to Chester shuttle services.

The following are booked to be worked by 175s from Platform 9:-

0723 Crewe to Chester
2136 Crewe to Holyhead
2330 Crewe to Chester

and as mentioned, all day Sundays on the xx27 (or thereabout) Crewe to Holyhead plus several locals.

There are hardly any 158s as almost everything during the day is the local worked by 2x153

 

[RobShipway]

The following are booked to be worked by 175s from Platform 9:-

0723 Crewe to Chester
2136 Crewe to Holyhead
2330 Crewe to Chester

and as mentioned, all day Sundays on the xx27 (or thereabout) Crewe to Holyhead plus several locals.

There are hardly any 158s as almost everything during the day is the local worked by 2x153

Those services according to Real Time trains Pathed as Class 158/168/170/175 DMU.

So what did the 0656 service from Crewe to Holyhead that left from platform 9 this morning?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those services according to Real Time trains Pathed as Class 158/168/170/175 DMU.

So what did the 0656 service from Crewe to Holyhead that left from platform 9 this morning?

What they are pathed as doesn't dictate what they are, provided what is used can match the timings on that service.

 

[PHILIPE]

Those services according to Real Time trains Pathed as Class 158/168/170/175 DMU.

So what did the 0656 service from Crewe to Holyhead that left from platform 9 this morning?

The 0656 is booked for a 158.
Can you back your claim that there are problems with 175s in Platforms 9 and 10 by quoting a source for such info

 

[RobShipway]

The 0656 is booked for a 158.
Can you back your claim that there are problems with 175s in Platforms 9 and 10 by quoting a source for such info

It was something that I read within these forums from a previous thread. There was also a comment from Philip about the doors earlier in this thread also.

 

[Energy]

The 175's are nice long distance units and the refurbished units have been completed to a high standard. That could extend their lifespan for a few years and could encourage TFW to find a solution to keeping them

I have my doubts that the 175s will stay, more units will add to the cost of leasing, TfW is already heavily subsidised for these services and especially post-Covid, I can't see much more stock coming.

 

[E100]

If my calculation is correct, Northern has 53 class 158 units. There is 27 class 175 units. How are you going to replace the other 26 class 158 units? Then you have the 54 class 156 units to replace as well.

Hi Robbies,

My thinking was rather than replacing all northern 158's/156's outright as such it would be to replace the ones running out of Heaton which are a largely isolated group of units distinct from other northern ops (noting there is some crossover at Carlisle) simplifying training needs to that one area. This was also with a view that Heaton as a depot could probably manage to fulfil the maintenance needs with only relatively minor modifications.

Granted this is with no real knowledge of the movements for exams / major maintenance etc (I believe most northern 158's are done at Heaton - I seem to remember reading this one time but that is quite foggy so don't quote me on that!), but they may well rotate them into the local services which could complicate things.

The bias BTW is I was brought up in Chester and followed the transition to 175's and then moved up to NCL for university going back 10 years now.

 

[zwk500]

It was something that I read within these forums from a previous thread. There was also a comment from Philip about the doors earlier in this thread also.

There is no restriction on Class 175s in 9/10, unless it's an operator policy.

 

[RobShipway]

Hi Robbies,

My thinking was rather than replacing all northern 158's/156's outright as such it would be to replace the ones running out of Heaton which are a largely isolated group of units distinct from other northern ops (noting there is some crossover at Carlisle) simplifying training needs to that one area. This was also with a view that Heaton as a depot could probably manage to fulfil the maintenance needs with only relatively minor modifications.

Granted this is with no real knowledge of the movements for exams / major maintenance etc (I believe most northern 158's are done at Heaton - I seem to remember reading this one time but that is quite foggy so don't quote me on that!), but they may well rotate them into the local services which could complicate things.

The bias BTW is I was brought up in Chester and followed the transition to 175's and then moved up to NCL for university going back 10 years now.

Good idea.

There is no restriction on Class 175s in 9/10, unless it's an operator policy.

Okay, thanks. I thought that was the case, despite things that I have read in these forums and other places on the internet.

 

[Neptune]

There are on average 40 daily unit diagrams for Heaton at the moment not including spares or maintenance so they couldn’t cover that.

 

[JonathanH]

There are on average 40 daily unit diagrams for Heaton at the moment not including spares or maintenance so they couldn’t cover that.

Yes, but 175s probably could replace all the Newcastle / Tees Valley diagrams while 156s remain on the Cumbrian Coast and 158s remain on the Settle-Carlisle route and other stuff further south.

For example 158853 is currently working a Leeds to Nottingham service but ends up at Heaton tonight. I expect that the OP wasn't counting that as a 'Heaton diagram'.

 

[Philip]

I remember reading when first introduced they were too wide for some platforms and these needed 'shaving'. Perhaps this may have a bearing on where they end up.

 

[E100]

There are on average 40 daily unit diagrams for Heaton at the moment not including spares or maintenance so they couldn’t cover that.

Ah right fair enough. Maybe a displacement of the 156's then leaving the 158's or vice versa.

Yes, but 175s probably could replace all the Newcastle / Tees Valley diagrams while 156s remain on the Cumbrian Coast and 158s remain on the Settle-Carlisle route and other stuff further south.

For example 158853 is currently working a Leeds to Nottingham service but ends up at Heaton tonight. I expect that the OP wasn't counting that as a 'Heaton diagram'.

Yeah my thinking was somewhat that the 175's 100mph capability could help with some of the ECML runs but to be honest the more I think about it the less likely I see this being likely to be an actual factor once everything is taken into account. Though if they can't go to Heaton I can't see where else they could easily go. Any depots further south, generally have even bigger rosters and ones north in Scotland have newer stock / high spec refurb / RA restrictions i.e. WHL. Much like their 180 cousins they could end up being passed around.

 

[IanXC]

Northern's North East operation does seem like a good fit in a number of ways.

Heaton's current allocation of units I believe is 30 Class 156s (which operate as far as Barrow and Preston on Cumbrian Coast services as well as in the North East but not on the Settle and Carlisle) and 17 Class 158s (which operate in the North East, on the Settle and Carlisle and in Yorkshire, but not on the Cumbrian Coast).

Heaton have for a reasonable length of time maintained Grand Central's 180s, which I am lead to believe are reasonably similar to 175s.

The North East was shown at one stage as a possible future home for the Thames Valley Turbo's, suggesting that broadly the structure gauge available is more generous than elsewhere, as it has been suggested that 175s could be challenging on some routes.

However:

I'm not clear that they'd be able to operate on the Cumbrian Coast - aren't some of the tunnels rather restrictive? Would 175s fit?

There are complications with ScotRail joint working between Dumfries and Carlisle.

Heaton has more capacity than is purely required to provide units for the North East operation - it has historically provided 142s, 144s and now 158s to work in Yorkshire. Without involving Leeds and Skipton crew in learning new traction types Heaton ends up either having excess unused capacity or having 3 types of unit on is books.

In the round there are multiple moving parts:

Alstom Breeze 600 units in the Middlesbrough area could mean that a combination of the 27 175s, plus a fleet of maybe 10 Cl600 (has anyone ever seen a figure for the size of this fleet?) could cover all the North East work, plus the Cumbrian Coast (if a 175 can fit of course).

Or perhaps retain a small 156 fleet and use 175s on the Settle and Carlisle - clearly a 3 car works well but a pair of 2 cars is more problematic.

Or potentially supply the Cumbrian Coast with 156s from Newton Heath and top up Heaton with 158s for the Settle and Carlisle and Yorkshire as currently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

175s can reach Barrow, FNW used to use them. Not past there though I think.

 

[IanXC]

175s can reach Barrow, FNW used to use them. Not past there though I think.

Indeed, but the Furness Line isn't really the problem, the Cumbrian Coast can't continue running 156s forever; at some point either the clearance issue has to be dealt with or another fleet found that can fit in the available space.

I think as per 185s and 195s, 175s could go as far as Millom.

 

[Parallel]

I think of the current TOCs, the 175s would fit best with either GWR, Scotrail or Northern.

GWR could use them on their regional routes. I'm not sure how easy it'd be to clear them to Portsmouth Harbour, Weymouth or Penzance but they are the perfect stock to run regional services (perhaps doubled up) - this would replace the short HST sets and also could move some of the Turbos to the metro areas and shorter distance services around Bristol and Exeter, in turn releasing some of the class 150s. GWR would need to retain some 150s however, especially for Looe and Gunnislake and ideally for St Ives too, unless a 4 carriage 165 can fit in the platform at St Erth for that service? A lot of clearance could potentially be needed over the GWR network though for the various changes.

Scotrail - I would've thought 175s would be good for a number of medium and long distance diesel routes currently operated by Class 156s, i.e. Carlisle to Glasgow, Kilmarnock to
Stranraer etc. I'm also not sure if Scotrail are looking to replace their short HST sets but the 175s could fill the gap here. Only issue is lack of gangway connections.

I don't really know enough about the Northern network but they could be useful on some rural routes with limited stops. I think the units are too good to be scrapped though - but they need to work services where they're suited. They are not really suited to services with frequent stops due to the door arrangement.

 

[irish_rail]

The 175s are good trains and internally they are fantastic post refurb from a passenger perspective. They would be an adequate replacement for the GWR HST fleet should that happen (which i doubt in the short to medium term).
Certainly too good to go to waste.

 

[wobman]

I think the 175 units will find a home, post refurb they are nice units. Alstom Widnes have done a great job, it's a shame TFW are losing them first.

 

[507020]

I can’t see them being able to scrap any modern DMUs as they will still be needed, especially once 150s, 156s and 158s have to be withdrawn as life expired, which isn’t that far off, until widespread electrification in all parts of England (with Wales having its own fleet and Scotland being responsible for its own electrification) More pure DMUs are off the table, not least because they’ve run out of numbers for them.

I can see 195s, 196s and 197s staying where they are until they are withdrawn or displaced by electrification and then either be sold abroad or retractioned as EMUs. 153s will go first, followed by the remaining 155s and then the mass withdrawals of 150s, 156s and finally 158s will. There will be surplus 175s and 185s floating around to cover some former Sprinter routes, helped by innovative use of existing EMUs in the forms of 769s, 600s etc as a stop gap and perhaps battery equipped units such as 777s can absorb unelectrified lines which neighbour their area, but there will HAVE to be a lot of new electrification in the next 10 years if we are to stand a chance of replacing such a huge fleet of DMUs from the 1980s, with 832 carriages totalling 18,406.56m (excluding the 158s and 159s operated by SWR and 52209 and 52212 having been destroyed). Technically these could all be coupled together in a single consist.

The North East operations seem like a more natural home for 185s than 175s, since this is where the 185s predominantly run. The 175s are already cleared for and have already run on much of the network in the North West under FNW. Although they currently run on some Northern routes on long distance services from Wales, these are all electrified. GWR has got the 165s and 166s. 180s will likely just do odd jobs wherever they are needed.

Some infrastructural changes will certainly be needed though, whether this is electrification, or just because the only stock which will fit is life expired, either due to platform length or loading gauge. 4 cars is completely inadequate for St Ives. A 4 car 150 at St Ives was the most overcrowded train I’ve ever been on. In all likelihood though, with the Chester 175 depot going over to 197s, the 175 fleet, as well as the 185 fleet once TPE has finished with it, could end up being split up across the country. I couldn’t tell you where Turbostars will fit into all this. I’ve never even seen one.

 

[warwickshire]

Indeed, but the Furness Line isn't really the problem, the Cumbrian Coast can't continue running 156s forever; at some point either the clearance issue has to be dealt with or another fleet found that can fit in the available space.

I think as per 185s and 195s, 175s could go as far as Millom.

Yes actually the 175 did go to Millom .
There was a evening service to Millom from Manchester airport in the evening approximately around 1848.
Which then ran back empty coaching stock from Millom. To Barrow
And in the morning empties from Barrow to Millom and then to Manchester airport.

 

[warwickshire]

Possibly chiltern railways from Kidderminster to London Marylebone to replace the 68s and mk3 coaches.
Due to them getting on a bit now.
And the high costs involved for the mk3 running costs alone ie loco leasing.
Fuel and in particular parts for mk3s and driving van trailers.
Now becoming hard to get.
Also 175s are cleared anyway from kidderminster to princess risbourgh. Because back in 2000 to 2002 night time trails and testing took place with the 175s back then when brand new.
With a rescue locomotive at banbury.
In case off failure.
So certainly have been used on the route before.
So maybe might return to where the very first days where for some units.
Also would be ideal as six cars.
For the route and would as required iff needed be able to use selective door operation.
At some stations in which the current mk3s do.
Also would be ideal for very much service strengthening on the Birmingham to London Marylebone services.
Ie as 6 car say rather than a two car 1683 which is a quite often occurrence..

 

[Class360/1]

I can’t see them being able to scrap any modern DMUs as they will still be needed, especially once 150s, 156s and 158s have to be withdrawn as life expired, which isn’t that far off, until widespread electrification in all parts of England (with Wales having its own fleet and Scotland being responsible for its own electrification) More pure DMUs are off the table, not least because they’ve run out of numbers for them.

I can see 195s, 196s and 197s staying where they are until they are withdrawn or displaced by electrification and then either be sold abroad or retractioned as EMUs. 153s will go first, followed by the remaining 155s and then the mass withdrawals of 150s, 156s and finally 158s will. There will be surplus 175s and 185s floating around to cover some former Sprinter routes, helped by innovative use of existing EMUs in the forms of 769s, 600s etc as a stop gap and perhaps battery equipped units such as 777s can absorb unelectrified lines which neighbour their area, but there will HAVE to be a lot of new electrification in the next 10 years if we are to stand a chance of replacing such a huge fleet of DMUs from the 1980s, with 832 carriages totalling 18,406.56m (excluding the 158s and 159s operated by SWR and 52209 and 52212 having been destroyed). Technically these could all be coupled together in a single consist.

The North East operations seem like a more natural home for 185s than 175s, since this is where the 185s predominantly run. The 175s are already cleared for and have already run on much of the network in the North West under FNW. Although they currently run on some Northern routes on long distance services from Wales, these are all electrified. GWR has got the 165s and 166s. 180s will likely just do odd jobs wherever they are needed.

Some infrastructural changes will certainly be needed though, whether this is electrification, or just because the only stock which will fit is life expired, either due to platform length or loading gauge. 4 cars is completely inadequate for St Ives. A 4 car 150 at St Ives was the most overcrowded train I’ve ever been on. In all likelihood though, with the Chester 175 depot going over to 197s, the 175 fleet, as well as the 185 fleet once TPE has finished with it, could end up being split up across the country. I couldn’t tell you where Turbostars will fit into all this. I’ve never even seen one.

This ⬆️

Apparently most of the sprinter units (excluding 158 and 159’s) only have 3-5 years left.

 

[Neptune]

Apparently most of the sprinter units (excluding 158 and 159’s) only have 3-5 years left.

According to whom?

 

[Caaardiff]

This ⬆️

Apparently most of the sprinter units (excluding 158 and 159’s) only have 3-5 years left.

TfW are keeping 150s and 153s longer than that for HOWL services.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They are due to leave the Welsh franchise this time next year; from previous posts it seems 197s may start to replace them towards the end of this year, probably on North Wales services to start with (in time for the December timetable change?) and then a gradual introduction on Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales over the first few months of next year.

The first route for the class 197s was confirmed to be Liverpool-Chester (including the odd Liverpool-Wrexham working) in a recent issue of Modern Railways. I would guess that this is unlikely to start before 2022.

It's not just the location of the doors; at a guess I'd say 175 doors are narrower and the vestibule corridor opposite the disabled toilet has less space than the vestibule area on Avanti stock.

The class 175 doors look relatively wide to me compared to the doors on 158s and, more relevantly, the mark 4 sets that will be running through Crewe on the route anyway.

There are complications with ScotRail joint working between Dumfries and Carlisle.

I think I read recently that ScotRail are planning to end their through working to Newcastle.

Alstom Breeze 600 units in the Middlesbrough area could mean that a combination of the 27 175s, plus a fleet of maybe 10 Cl600 (has anyone ever seen a figure for the size of this fleet?)

I've seen 10 class 600s mentioned somewhere, with a possibility of 15 units depending on who you believe.

I can’t see them being able to scrap any modern DMUs as they will still be needed, especially once 150s, 156s and 158s have to be withdrawn as life expired, which isn’t that far off, until widespread electrification in all parts of England (with Wales having its own fleet and Scotland being responsible for its own electrification) More pure DMUs are off the table, not least because they’ve run out of numbers for them.

Not sure what you mean by 'run out of numbers'. Unfortunately replacement of 15x is likely to be required before much electrification can be done, I fear more pure DMUs will be ordered for this which would be a mistake (we already have far too many modern pure DMUs if you ask me). The only solution in my view is an order for new electrification-ready DEMU or bi-mode units, although wiring the full TPE core could release ALL the 185s which would go some way towards eliminating the 150s (via a cascade of 195s).

I can see 195s, 196s and 197s staying where they are until they are withdrawn or displaced by electrification and then either be sold abroad or retractioned as EMUs.

I can't see them being retractioned as EMUs sadly - would love to be proved wrong as they would be far better suited to electrified surburban routes than the sort of rural route that will remain unwired for the forseeable future. As pure DMUs retractioning 19x units to electric would be more complicated than E-Voyager and we all know nothing came of that. That means either running DMUs beyond the net-zero deadline in 2050 or wasting the carbon emmitted in their manufacture by scrapping them early. The best outcome now would be for the majority of the 197s to be retractioned BEFORE assembly (assuming that an unassembled 195 bodyshell is no different to one for a 331, which is a big assumption to make). Once they have been put together with the wrong wiring etc. for an EMU they will be stuck as DMUs.

From another topic:

They will initially go to longsight depot once they leave TFW, no TOC has shown any interest officially so far.
It's a shame TFW couldn't keep them though as they are nice units, more suited to longer journeys

Would Longsight have the capacity to maintain them or just sidings to store them in?

If they can be maintained at Longsight, TfW could use them in pairs on the Swansea-Manchester route on the workings that aren't booked to be mark 4s. I think there are 9 or 10 diagrams on the route, 3 or 4 of which would be mark 4s (I forget how may mark 4 sets TfW have now). That would probably make it six 175/0 and six 175/1 forming 5-car workings between Swansea and Manchester, leaving 3 or 4 two-car and 7 or 8 three-car 175s available for use elsewhere (I suggest a mix of Cardiff - Milford Haven and Holyhead-Crewe fast services).

A possible depot strategy:
Chester - 197s
Longsight & Canton - 175s
Machynlleth - 158s
Landore & Canton - E197s (197s assembled as bi-modes - for the Swansea Metro and for cascading tram-trains off Aberdare/Merthyr/Terherbert services and onto new on-street routes in the Cardiff/Newport metro), 756s & 231s

 

[Anonymous10]

The first route for the class 197s was confirmed to be Liverpool-Chester (including the odd Liverpool-Wrexham working) in a recent issue of Modern Railways. I would guess that this is unlikely to start before 2022.

The class 175 doors look relatively wide to me compared to the doors on 158s and, more relevantly, the mark 4 sets that will be running through Crewe on the route anyway.

I think I read recently that ScotRail are planning to end their through working to Newcastle.

I've seen 10 class 600s mentioned somewhere, with a possibility of 15 units depending on who you believe.

Not sure what you mean by 'run out of numbers'. Unfortunately replacement of 15x is likely to be required before much electrification can be done, I fear more pure DMUs will be ordered for this which would be a mistake (we already have far too many modern pure DMUs if you ask me). The only solution in my view is an order for new electrification-ready DEMU or bi-mode units, although wiring the full TPE core could release ALL the 185s which would go some way towards eliminating the 150s (via a cascade of 195s).

I can't see them being retractioned as EMUs sadly - would love to be proved wrong as they would be far better suited to electrified surburban routes than the sort of rural route that will remain unwired for the forseeable future. As pure DMUs retractioning 19x units to electric would be more complicated than E-Voyager and we all know nothing came of that. That means either running DMUs beyond the net-zero deadline in 2050 or wasting the carbon emmitted in their manufacture by scrapping them early. The best outcome now would be for the majority of the 197s to be retractioned BEFORE assembly (assuming that an unassembled 195 bodyshell is no different to one for a 331, which is a big assumption to make). Once they have been put together with the wrong wiring etc. for an EMU they will be stuck as DMUs.

From another topic:
Would Longsight have the capacity to maintain them or just sidings to store them in?

If they can be maintained at Longsight, TfW could use them in pairs on the Swansea-Manchester route on the workings that aren't booked to be mark 4s. I think there are 9 or 10 diagrams on the route, 3 or 4 of which would be mark 4s (I forget how may mark 4 sets TfW have now). That would probably make it six 175/0 and six 175/1 forming 5-car workings between Swansea and Manchester, leaving 3 or 4 two-car and 7 or 8 three-car 175s available for use elsewhere (I suggest a mix of Cardiff - Milford Haven and Holyhead-Crewe fast services).

A possible depot strategy:
Chester - 197s
Longsight & Canton - 175s
Machynlleth - 158s
Landore & Canton - E197s (197s assembled as bi-modes - for the Swansea Metro and for cascading tram-trains off Aberdare/Merthyr/Terherbert services and onto new on-street routes in the Cardiff/Newport metro), 756s & 231s

one minor issue with your depot proposal who would maintain the 153s for HOWL and whatever they plan on operating to pembroke dock i believe this to be 197 and same for Fishguard

 

[HSTEd]

If passenger numbers do not recover the 175s might allow Scotrail to escape the HST albatros around their necks.

Although that would be politically fraught - especially if salvaging the current frequencies required the forbidden three letter staffing acronym.