Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[pokemonsuper9]

What does the equivalent train look like the previoius week? (Which is still after the timetable change).

Inciudentally, i can't see the seat plan, only an aerial view of a nose cone

15:32 on the 3rd of June also showing double 805, with full seating plan

 

[danbarjon]

Gives me a network error:

That will be an 805 as they are the only ones to have Coach P.

 

[JW4]

That will be an 805 as they are the only ones to have Coach P.

Well at least it still tells us info we can pick stuff from.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Pretty odd lettering in terms of coaches.

It's a bit strange how it goes coaches A, B, C, D then K, followed by L, M, N, P and bounces back to J. I thought they would've kept the lettering similar to the 221s (A, B, C, D, E, G, H, J, K, L).

It tells me I am unable to reserve a seat in Coaches C and N, but half the coach is reserved while half isn't, but Coaches D and P have the same thing. It's a bit confusing because where it changes over to reserved seating, half of a table of four is unreserved.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It tells me I am unable to reserve a seat in Coaches C and N, but half the coach is reserved while half isn't, but Coaches D and P have the same thing. It's a bit confusing because where it changes over to reserved seating, half of a table of four is unreserved.

Assuming we're looking at the same thing, that's the unavailable for reservation look rather than the reserved one, a reserved seat has its number visible and is in blue.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Image shows the seat maps on an Avanti West Coast double class 805, with half of Coaches C and D being unreserved.

Assuming we're looking at the same thing, that's the unavailable for reservation look rather than the reserved one, a reserved seat has its number visible and is in blue.

I've attached some screenshots to show you what I mean. Half of the seats in Coach D are blanked out (like they would be if reserved), same with Coach C. So I wonder if this will be akin to what LNER do with Coach C on their Azuma sets, in which half of it is available for last minute reservations if the train starts to get full.

It still states Coach C is unreserved, but has seats that would be available for reservation if the pop-up wasn't there.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

View attachment 154694View attachment 154695



I've attached some screenshots to show you what I mean. Half of the seats in Coach D are blanked out (like they would be if reserved), same with Coach C. So I wonder if this will be akin to what LNER do with Coach C on their Azuma sets, in which half of it is available for last minute reservations if the train starts to get full.

That is not reserved, that's Unavailable.
The blue that seat 18 and 22 are are what shows up when a seat is reserved

It still states Coach C is unreserved, but has seats that would be available for reservation if the pop-up wasn't there.

That's just how Avanti trains are, nothing new.

 

[peteryvon]

I noticed some services past 3rd July are Standard and First Class only on the Avanti site, is that a small little indication that it MIGHT be a new Class 805?
I'm aware nothing has been announced yet, but want to try my luck with my interrail trip around that time.

Edit;
Talking about the London->Liverpool trains.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I noticed some services past 3rd July are Standard and First Class only on the Avanti site, is that a small little indication that it MIGHT be a new Class 805?
I'm aware nothing has been announced yet, but want to try my luck with my interrail trip around that time.

Edit;
Talking about the London->Liverpool trains.

For the ones I can spot without SP, the seat planner shows Pendolinos, and they're in the normal timeslot, not the 2nd new one which is the one that is expected to have 807s.

 

[peteryvon]

For the ones I can spot without SP, the seat planner shows Pendolinos, and they're in the normal timeslot, not the 2nd new one which is the one that is expected to have 807s.

Interesting.
So which trains are (planned/intentioned or how you wanna call it) Class 805?
Because I can't seem to find the seat planner.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So which trains are (planned/intentioned or how you wanna call it) Class 805?

There's currently extra space in the timetable for a second Liverpool train per hour, which is expected (long term) to be operated by a Class 807.
In future all North Wales Coast services will be Class 805s, replacing the Super Voyagers (Class 221s).

There's no solid date for when 80x will start use, I think the most recent time was "Summer", so we'll see how that goes.
I wouldn't be surprised if the seat planner is just confused and no one noticed it was showing 805s.

 

[childwallblues]

I'd like to say it is a shambles but knowing Avanti they will make it worst probably next week they will say they are running Voyagers to Liverpool...

But the electric supply is not Avantis fault. It is Network Rails. Anyway way until Network Rail says there is a problem I shall hold my breath. TfN meetings are dominated by politicians and civil servants none of whom I trust these days.

 

[DaveyJones]

Pretty odd lettering in terms of coaches.

It's a bit strange how it goes coaches A, B, C, D then K, followed by L, M, N, P and bounces back to J. I thought they would've kept the lettering similar to the 221s (A, B, C, D, E, G, H, J, K, L).

It tells me I am unable to reserve a seat in Coaches C and N, but half the coach is reserved while half isn't, but Coaches D and P have the same thing. It's a bit confusing because where it changes over to reserved seating, half of a table of four is unreserved.

It does mean that all for any given coach letter the classes are the same for Pendolino and the new trains. As in J and K are always first class.

 

[Railperf]

Presumably till supply is upgraded the 807s will cover Birmingham and Blackpool services

Erm Blackpool still requires running north of Crewe where the power supply is insufficient ..? Unless they have worked out there is enough

 

[Trainbike46]

Erm Blackpool still requires running north of Crewe where the power supply is insufficient ..? Unless they have worked out there is enough

Depends, is the problem north of Crewe or somewhere between the wcml junction-Runcorn-Liverpool Lime street? if the latter, trains to blackpool is fine, but to Liverpool isn't.

They just need to upgrade it quickly to resolve the issue

 

[Railperf]

Depends, is the problem north of Crewe or somewhere between the wcml junction-Runcorn-Liverpool Lime street? if the latter, trains to blackpool is fine, but to Liverpool isn't.

They just need to upgrade it quickly to resolve the issue

If the issue is between Weaver Jn and Lime Street, the 805's could still use electric part way and switch to diesel after Weaver?

 

[JW4]

Presumably till supply is upgraded the 807s will cover Birmingham and Blackpool services

Preston to Blackpool currently diesel only for Hitachis

 

[Elecman]

Preston to Blackpool currently diesel only for Hitachis

What Hitachis presently run from Preston -Blackpool??

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Preston to Blackpool currently diesel only for Hitachis

The paths from June on RTT don't suggest a change of traction en route - it says "80x on electric" throughout.

 

[JW4]

The paths from June on RTT don't suggest a change of traction en route - it says "80x on electric" throughout.

Indeed, hopefully they can get them able to use electric there before they go into service

 

[Wyrleybart]

But LNR runs fewer services to Liverpool than it did, and all the freight uses diesel these days.
The route's power supply and feeding methods have also been expensively upgraded in recent years as part of WCRM.

The question which needs asking is why the class 807s were ordered as (non Bimode) EMUs, as I am pretty sure they were originally planned to work the Liverpool-Euston route.

 

[Trainbike46]

The question which needs asking is why the class 807s were ordered as (non Bimode) EMUs, as I am pretty sure they were originally planned to work the Liverpool-Euston route.

That route is fully electric, so they should be running on electric the whole way. If the power supply is insufficient, it should be upgraded. bimodes are a solution for routes that are only partially electrified, not for routes where the power supply needs to be upgraded. ordering EMUs was the right choice.

 

[Wyrleybart]

That route is fully electric, so they should be running on electric the whole way. If the power supply is insufficient, it should be upgraded. bimodes are a solution for routes that are only partially electrified, not for routes where the power supply needs to be upgraded. ordering EMUs was the right choice.

Exactly. I am on the same page as you, and I don't understand the alleged scenario

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.

 

[childwallblues]

I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.

And also at Huyton Quarry.

Yesterday there was a 5Q90 0913 Edge Hill Depot to Euston and 1403 return formed of 805008. The voutward leg stopped briefly at Crewe but the return leg ran non stop. So did the return leg run the 191 miles on diesel or electric?

 

[Railperf]

I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.

Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:

"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).

Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't it ORR that determines the content of NR's CP programmes (along with the DfT's SoFA)?
You blame "the government" but did NR overspend on the programme like they did on GW electrification and run out of money for the project?
Power upgrades take a long time if new grid connections are needed.
It doesn't sound like this is a problem that will be fixed quickly, unless the funding is in the CP7 budget.

 

[Trainbike46]

Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:

"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).

Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."

Firstly, thank you for sharing that insight!

Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)

To me, it sounds like something that needs sorting ASAP - The impacts this must be having on passenger and freight operations is unacceptable.

Isn't it ORR that determines the content of NR's CP programmes (along with the DfT's SoFA)?
You blame "the government" but did NR overspend on the programme like they did on GW electrification and run out of money for the project?
Power upgrades take a long time if new grid connections are needed.
It doesn't sound like this is a problem that will be fixed quickly, unless the funding is in the CP7 budget.

Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects

 

[MrJeeves]

They have also mentioned their target to introduce these are June.

This lines up with CrossCountry's gaining Voyager sets starting from June.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1772234249493499946

Good news: CrossCountryUK has secured an additional five Class 221 Voyagers to augment its fleet. They are in addition to the seven extra 221s already announced. The extra sets will be progressively introduced from June 2024.

 

[dereksingh291]

This lines up with CrossCountry's gaining Voyager sets starting from June.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1772234249493499946

are the 5 additional voyagers coming from Avanti West Coast in addition to the 7 Voyagers that will be leaving Avanti West Coast?