MrJeeves
Established Member
Yes, 5 in addition to the 7 sets that were already coming from AWC.are the 5 additional voyagers coming from Avanti West Coast in addition to the 7 Voyagers that will be leaving Avanti West Coast?
Yes, 5 in addition to the 7 sets that were already coming from AWC.are the 5 additional voyagers coming from Avanti West Coast in addition to the 7 Voyagers that will be leaving Avanti West Coast?
okay so are they due to enter service with CrossCountry in June 2024 and will the Voyagers coming from Avanti be refurbished as soon as they enter service with CrossCountry but also what will happen to the remaining 6 Avanti Voyagers and when are Avanti West Coast due to have their 805s and 807s into passenger service?Yes, 5 in addition to the 7 sets that were already coming from AWC.
"Progressively" enter service from June 2024okay so are they due to enter service with CrossCountry in June 2024
No idea, but XC have also just committed to a full fleet (Voyagers and Turbos) refurb by summer 2026.will the Voyagers coming from Avanti be refurbished as soon as they enter service with CrossCountry
I mean they'll just be cascaded to other TOCs as well like most rolling stock is...what will happen to the remaining 6 Avanti Voyagers and when are Avanti West Coast due to have their 805s and 807s into passenger service?
I suspect that "trips" in this context refers to how often the circuit breakers "trip" in an electrical sense rather than a number of train journeys.Firstly, thank you for sharing that insight!
Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)
To me, it sounds like something that needs sorting ASAP - The impacts this must be having on passenger and freight operations is unacceptable.
Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects
Nowhere else has 5 Voyagers to give them, so yes all will come from Avanti West Coast.are the 5 additional voyagers coming from Avanti West Coast in addition to the 7 Voyagers that will be leaving Avanti West Coast?
That does sound more likely, thank you for pointing that outI suspect that "trips" in this context refers to how often the circuit breakers "trip" in an electrical sense rather than a number of train journeys.
I've no idea how often these circuit breakers would trip in normal operation. By definition it is usually because there is a fault in the 25kv network it's feeding either a contact to earth or maybe a lightning surge.
Isn't it ORR that determines the content of NR's CP programmes (along with the DfT's SoFA)?
Well I don't mean to be hyper-critical, and I don't know the facts in this case, but NR has a track record of incomplete, delayed or de-scoped projects when they have spent the budget (with overspend taking money from other projects).Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects
The oil in the Oil Circuit breakers ( and transformers) isn’t changed every day but will be checked by sampling after each fault level clearance. It is also tested on a routine basis ever few years for water contamination, acidity and Breakdown voltage value. Depending on the result of those tests the oil can either be filter cleaned or flushed and replacedFirstly, thank you for sharing that insight!
Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)
DB has stood its class 90's down and Freightliner use their few erratically and then you got a class 92 each way over night so its hardly an intensively worked electric freight service anymore. That said i agree its a nonsense we still have the original oil circuit breakers in use here and even if the enhancement has been stopped they should be replaced under normal renewal budgets. Theres plenty of redundant VCBs off ECML that could have been transferred in the interim if they've been holding off waiting for the final HS2 gameplan to be developed.Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:
"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).
Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."
Doesn't it mean you get confused people on the platform wandering up and down between D and K wondering where their coach is?It does mean that all for any given coach letter the classes are the same for Pendolino and the new trains. As in J and K are always first class.
The PS limits stays in place as is. A new MU limit applies in certain places. My understanding is that where a PS and MU limit exist, then there is only scope for a single EPS limit. But in the locations where MU limits end and revert back to PS, then theoretically the pair of EPS limits can remain until the next MU limit kicks in?Linslade is 90 PS on Up with no MU and 125ESP with no differential after the new speeds are introduced.
The Down will be 90 PS 100 MU and 125EPS with no differential.
Not sure when the drivers will be briefed / trained. Not all the boards are up yet!….
The EPS for Voyagers will go once the MU is in. There will not be differentials kept.The PS limits stays in place as is. A new MU limit applies in certain places. My understanding is that where a PS and MU limit exist, then there is only scope for a single EPS limit. But in the locations where MU limits end and revert back to PS, then theoretically the pair of EPS limits can remain until the next MU limit kicks in?
All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal. Isn't the profile going live between Kilburn and Rugby next week?The EPS for Voyagers will go once the MU is in. There will not be differentials kept.
It is an AWC project and the decision will no doubt be there being sufficient 80X and minimal Voyagers.
The date this happens is still unknown. Looks like at least eight Voyagers will stay until December. Voyagers can run at MU anyway.
The plan was for week 01 but I haven’t checked the WON to see if that is still happening.All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal. Isn't the profile going live between Kilburn and Rugby next week?
All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal.
When it ‘goes live’When will the Network Rail electronic sectional appendix pdf for West Coast Mainline, show the new speed profile for the 805’s and Multiple Units?.
I would expect it to be.Is this an 805?
Realtime Trains | 5Q51 1712 Oxley Car. M.D. to Holyhead | 31/03/2024
Real-time train running information for 5Q51 1712 departure from Oxley Car. M.D. to Holyhead on 31/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Thank you
Dave
805002Is this an 805?
Realtime Trains | 5Q51 1712 Oxley Car. M.D. to Holyhead | 31/03/2024
Real-time train running information for 5Q51 1712 departure from Oxley Car. M.D. to Holyhead on 31/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Thank you
Dave
Considering that when the line was electrified between Crewe and Liverpool in 1961 all passenger and freight trains changed to electric power. And in those days there were a lot of freight workings into the Merseyside area. So where has all the power gone?DB has stood its class 90's down and Freightliner use their few erratically and then you got a class 92 each way over night so its hardly an intensively worked electric freight service anymore. That said i agree its a nonsense we still have the original oil circuit breakers in use here and even if the enhancement has been stopped they should be replaced under normal renewal budgets. Theres plenty of redundant VCBs off ECML that could have been transferred in the interim if they've been holding off waiting for the final HS2 gameplan to be developed.
Then:So where has all the power gone?
I presume modern trains are heavier with more safety features, tilt hardware on 390s, more current pull for air conditioning, automatic doors etc..Trains go faster at 200 km/h and faster accelerations use more power. There may be fewer freights but they're probably bigger.
Does it not also depend on where the power supply to that line also feeds, and over what area? Doesn’t necessarily cover just that line.There never seems to be more than 2 electric trains on that line at once, surely it has enough power
Under normal feeding it ought to be sufficient but NR will want to cover at least an N-1 condition (loss of one of the grid infeeds for example at Crewe) to maintain normal service an adjacent infeed) which could would effective double the area being fed and thus the number of trains so there is a risk of overloading the remaining feeder and it tripping on overcurrent.Does it not also depend on where the power supply to that line also feeds, and over what area? Doesn’t necessarily cover just that line.