Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[CN04NRJ]

The only way around that will be to stop allowing the Ridacard to be accepted on the Airlink and this would push people onto the X18. For fare payers, the X38 is also an option.

Ridacards are used by a lot of airport staff, plane crew and residents who hold one going to the airport. Taking that away would undoubtedly push them onto the competition.

In my experience the additional stops barely makes any difference to journey time, often arriving at either end a few seconds ahead or behind of the orange buses.

I have heard a number of drivers say the Air Link should be set down only going into town, with some supervisors agreeing as well. Delays caused by west Edinburgh residents hopping onto that instead of one of the city buses to save a minute or two in short journeys are commonplace. I would even go so far to say some of these residents would flatly refuse to use anything other than a 100.

There are some that will allow an X18, 31 and 26 to go past them only to be met with a bus that's completely full from the airport. I can see why it's an attractive option to use exclusively over the other services with the frequency and quicker journey times though.

The intermediate fare and stop also subsidise the service during lulls in airport demand whereas Bright Bus have to (almost) rely entirely on airport journeys. Just a few intermediate fares can cover the cost of wages/diesel.

 

[Lx008]

The journey time of the AIRX is essentially identical to that of the Airlink, despite the fact the former has far fewer stops. I don't think the Airlink should cut any stops because it clearly won't affect the journey time much and will just reduce passenger numbers.


I agree. I doubt Lothian will really need to do much to beat the AIRX as I don't see how the AIRX will survive long term - while it's doing a lot better now, most of the E300s would likely have to run full to turn a profit with the high airport surcharges, and they just aren't. Considering that McGill’s have already quietly raised fares, reducing the price difference between the Airlink and AIRX, I don't see it lasting beyond this winter, or next winter at the most.

On the topic of new vehicles - I feel electric is unlikely even though it would be ideal for a route as short as the 100, simply because there isn't really an electric double decker on the UK market that matches the capacity of an E400 XLB. One could compensate for that with an increase in frequency and thus more vehicles but that would cost more and add even more buses onto the already very busy A8 corridor. If Lothian were to order new vehicles I could see them going for the tri-axle Volvo B8L, they have almost the same capacity as the XLBs and we all know Lothian likes a good Volvo.

This would be a really left of field idea, but since the 100 route doesn’t see a lot a tight turns, would it be possible to get some fully electric 7900 bendy buses or even double jointed bendy buses similar to the B9SALF?

Very odd idea but it sure would increase capacity on a very straight route.

 

[Lothianbus703]

This would be a really left of field idea, but since the 100 route doesn’t see a lot a tight turns, would it be possible to get some fully electric 7900 bendy buses or even double jointed bendy buses similar it the B9SALF.

Very odd idea but it sure would increase capacity on a very straight route

Bendys would make more sense on the 30 because of the low bridge, they are more flexible then some people make out.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I wonder what it’ll be on. Are there any electric chassis that could be used for a tri-axle bus like the E400XLB or MCV Evoseti XL?

My guess would be an E500EV adapted for the UK market, but no idea if they'd be up to the airlink given most of the buses only spend 1-3 hours in the garage every night.

I'm really interested in how it'll pan out, ideally they could just get a batch of MCV B8Ls and wait to see what comes to market in a few years.

 

[SilentWatcher]

This would be a really left of field idea, but since the 100 route doesn’t see a lot a tight turns, would it be possible to get some fully electric 7900 bendy buses or even double jointed bendy buses similar to the B9SALF?

Very odd idea but it sure would increase capacity on a very straight route.

A lack of space at the termini would be a problem. You wouldn't be able to have 2 buses at either of them at the same time

 

[CSB0241]

A lack of space at the termini would be a problem. You wouldn't be able to have 2 buses at either of them at the same time.

That’s what I was thinking. The only way I could see two bendy buses being able to park is if they managed to work out a new timetable arrangement for the 200 & 400, & just have them use the same stop, & extend the 100 stop to be much longer, but that’s a hell of a lot of effort to go to for one fleet change.

 

[scosutsut]

My guess would be an E500EV adapted for the UK market, but no idea if they'd be up to the airlink given most of the buses only spend 1-3 hours in the garage every night.

I'm really interested in how it'll pan out, ideally they could just get a batch of MCV B8Ls and wait to see what comes to market in a few years.

Agree with this. Plenty of MCV in the fleet and the vehicles can do up to 5 years on Airlink then cascade into main fleet.

 

[Darklord8899]

.....Lothian did flirt with the bendybus back in the days of the X48 (Ingliston P&R to Sheriffhall P&R)
I guess one of the big (literally) issues would be storage space for a fleet of bendy's- the square metre space required compared to a Double decker.

 

[CN04NRJ]

.....Lothian did flirt with the bendybus back in the days of the X48 (Ingliston P&R to Sheriffhall P&R)
I guess one of the big (literally) issues would be storage space for a fleet of bendy's- the square metre space required compared to a Double decker.

Plus the lack of interior space after luggage racks, in Cardiff the bendy buses only had a seated capacity of 52 and a standing capacity of around 90-98.

 

[danielhogg2005]

On the East Coast Buses page of the Lothian website there is a link to a map showing places to go in East Lothian and it shows a map with both the East Coast Buses and Eve Coachs network together.
(Image shows the bar with the link and the file is what opens when you click it).

 

[Resuwen]

I’d imagine the next step is to run the Eve services in east coast livery with Eve branding before eventually making it fully east coast and just using the Eve name for coaches

 

[Darklord8899]

Plus the lack of interior space after luggage racks, in Cardiff the bendy buses only had a seated capacity of 52 and a standing capacity of around 90-98.

Ooft only 52 seated....not great at all

 

[Metal Mickey]

Ooft only 52 seated....not great at all

It doesn’t seem too bad as I’ve travelled on bendies in European countries with only 40 seats but provision of seats on buses always seems to be a bit of a hot potato in the uk

 

[Lx008]

It doesn’t seem too bad as I’ve travelled on bendies in European countries with only 40 seats but provision of seats on buses always seems to be a bit of a hot potato in the uk

Having lived in Basel many years, the airport buses there (Mercedes Benz Citaro bendy buses) only have 32 seats and seem to fare fine.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Personally, I think they’d opt to refurbish 1128-1140 ahead of replacing them with new diesel sock, which would almost certainly be EvoSeti bodied B8L’s. The electric options don’t seem like they’re perfect yet and the Airlink is Lothian’s most premium service so it has to work.

From what I understand Lothian seem dead against ordering more diesel stock, though absolutely an exception could be made for the Airlink. My argument for refurbishing and keeping 1128-1140 on the Airlink is purely down to the fact they’d likely get the same refit as 1126-1127 got anyway after becoming permanent city vehicles, in other words they’d be getting big work done anyway. 1128-1140 could also gain private plates to hide their age. There’s no need for XLB’s or tri axles on the Skylink’s at the moment, not ahead of the city routes anyway. A similar refurb could be done to 498-510 for the Skylink’s anyway as again, there’s no obvious replacement other than the existing MMC’s in the fleet which I don’t think is realistic.

In any case if 1128-1140 were replaced they would probably remain at Central and possibly be used to put the 37 back to XLB operation. Otherwise Longstone ends up with a micro fleet of XLB’s that can only be used on one route; not helpful.

A tri-axle BZL in the long term is what they’d be after, but there’s a few problems at the moment:

1. The chassis doesn’t exist.
2. Any chance of a 2025 delivery is incredibly ambitious given the delays across the industry.
3. The range. You’d need more vehicles than 13, a recast of the workings for each bus as some are out for far too long on the current workings.

I say this as I cannot seeing the charging facilities ever happening.

 

[JKP]

I’d imagine the next step is to run the Eve services in east coast livery with Eve branding before eventually making it fully east coast and just using the Eve name for coaches

As a matter of interest, do Eve give change? If so this may be an obstacle to ECB taking on the routes. I assume that all routes are subsidised by East Lothian Council who may specify that change be given for cash fares in their conditions of contract. Such a condition appeared in some other Councils conditions a few years ago before expansion of free travel to u22s and arrival of apps.

 

[stevenedin]

Personally, I think they’d opt to refurbish 1128-1140 ahead of replacing them with new diesel sock, which would almost certainly be EvoSeti bodied B8L’s. The electric options don’t seem like they’re perfect yet and the Airlink is Lothian’s most premium service so it has to work.

From what I understand Lothian seem dead against ordering more diesel stock, though absolutely an exception could be made for the Airlink. My argument for refurbishing and keeping 1128-1140 on the Airlink is purely down to the fact they’d likely get the same refit as 1126-1127 got anyway after becoming permanent city vehicles, in other words they’d be getting big work done anyway. 1128-1140 could also gain private plates to hide their age. There’s no need for XLB’s or tri axles on the Skylink’s at the moment, not ahead of the city routes anyway. A similar refurb could be done to 498-510 for the Skylink’s anyway as again, there’s no obvious replacement other than the existing MMC’s in the fleet which I don’t think is realistic.

In any case if 1128-1140 were replaced they would probably remain at Central and possibly be used to put the 37 back to XLB operation. Otherwise Longstone ends up with a micro fleet of XLB’s that can only be used on one route; not helpful.

A tri-axle BZL in the long term is what they’d be after, but there’s a few problems at the moment:

1. The chassis doesn’t exist.
2. Any chance of a 2025 delivery is incredibly ambitious given the delays across the industry.
3. The range. You’d need more vehicles than 13, a recast of the workings for each bus as some are out for far too long on the current workings.

I say this as I cannot seeing the charging facilities ever happening.

That sounds quite interesting. I think it could be done, the seats changed inside. Maybe a bit of a tidy up and a new livery would do the trick so that 1128-1140 could easily be repainted into the city livery when other new buses arrive.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

That sounds quite interesting. I think it could be done, the seats changed inside. Maybe a bit of a tidy up and a new livery would do the trick so that 1128-1140 could easily be repainted into the city livery when other new buses arrive.

Or, paint 1131-1140 white and wrap them so that when the time comes you just put the madder on top and touch up where necessary. It could result in those 10 having the same wrap as 1128-1130, but I personally would prefer a complete refresh of the livery. You might not even have to paint them at all.

As a matter of interest, do Eve give change? If so this may be an obstacle to ECB taking on the routes. I assume that all routes are subsidised by East Lothian Council who may specify that change be given for cash fares in their conditions of contract. Such a condition appeared in some other Councils conditions a few years ago before expansion of free travel to u22s and arrival of apps.

I think Eve do, but I know Prentice definitely don’t so it’s unlikely such a rule exists.

On a side point, whilst I too would like such a merge to go ahead. What if Eve lost all of their contracts to Prentice? Lothian might bid at a higher rate next time and contracts are never permanent. All factors to consider.

 

[stevenedin]

Or, paint 1131-1140 white and wrap them so that when the time comes you just put the madder on top and touch up where necessary. It could result in those 10 having the same wrap as 1128-1130, but I personally would prefer a complete refresh of the livery. You might not even have to paint them at all.


I think Eve do, but I know Prentice definitely don’t so it’s unlikely such a rule exists.

On a side point, whilst I too would like such a merge to go ahead. What if Eve lost all of their contracts to Prentice? Lothian might bid at a higher rate next time and contracts are never permanent. All factors to consider.

There is still a possibility of expansion to the East Coast Buses network. I’m not sure where but I’m sure they have a use for the buses unless they plan on moving the buses to West Lothian to expand the network there once all contracts are finished.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

There is still a possibility of expansion to the East Coast Buses network. I’m not sure where but I’m sure they have a use for the buses unless they plan on moving the buses to West Lothian to expand the network there once all contracts are finished.

It’s all pretty unknown where that one is going to go. Like I say if they lose the contracts there’s nothing to merge service bus wise.

They could merge, but replace the fleet. They could merge and keep the fleet. They might not merge but adopt the same fare structure/livery, or really, they could just do nothing.

Whatever happens. I expect the current Eve fleet (bus and coach) will eventually swap out an all Volvo fleet. This will take several years to happen, through a combination of early replacement/sale or second hand Volvo purchases. I also expect one of the Eve or Lothian Motorcoaches brands to eventually be retired with a single coach division, again this may take years to happen.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Personally, I think they’d opt to refurbish 1128-1140 ahead of replacing them with new diesel sock, which would almost certainly be EvoSeti bodied B8L’s. The electric options don’t seem like they’re perfect yet and the Airlink is Lothian’s most premium service so it has to work.

From what I understand Lothian seem dead against ordering more diesel stock, though absolutely an exception could be made for the Airlink. My argument for refurbishing and keeping 1128-1140 on the Airlink is purely down to the fact they’d likely get the same refit as 1126-1127 got anyway after becoming permanent city vehicles, in other words they’d be getting big work done anyway. 1128-1140 could also gain private plates to hide their age. There’s no need for XLB’s or tri axles on the Skylink’s at the moment, not ahead of the city routes anyway. A similar refurb could be done to 498-510 for the Skylink’s anyway as again, there’s no obvious replacement other than the existing MMC’s in the fleet which I don’t think is realistic.

In any case if 1128-1140 were replaced they would probably remain at Central and possibly be used to put the 37 back to XLB operation. Otherwise Longstone ends up with a micro fleet of XLB’s that can only be used on one route; not helpful.

A tri-axle BZL in the long term is what they’d be after, but there’s a few problems at the moment:

1. The chassis doesn’t exist.
2. Any chance of a 2025 delivery is incredibly ambitious given the delays across the industry.
3. The range. You’d need more vehicles than 13, a recast of the workings for each bus as some are out for far too long on the current workings.

I say this as I cannot seeing the charging facilities ever happening.

Given the circumstances, I would think that the current XLB batch will quite likely stay on Airlink for a number of years to come until an ideal replacement is found. They could end up setting a new record for the amount of years a single batch has been assigned to Airlink in decades, but they are well suited to the service and don't seem in need of replacing yet, espescially as there's not really an ideal replacement currently available. A final diesel order of a custom batch of XLBs from ADL is not impossible, however I would think it more likely that the 2019 batch will stay on Airlink until either an appropriate electric replacement becomes available or they find a completely different solution to the problem.

 

[Lx008]

With all the talk about the E500ev, what is it that is actually preventing it from being offered in the UK?

Hong Kong drives on the same side and has very similar vehicle safety laws, as well as the e400ev already being Uk approved, so what is left?

 

[Leedsbusman]

With all the talk about the E500ev, what is it that is actually preventing it from being offered in the UK?

Hong Kong drives on the same side and has very similar vehicle safety laws, as well as the e400ev already being Uk approved, so what is left?

A lack of demand?

 

[stevenedin]

It didn’t stop them from producing the E500s to First Glasgow or the ones in Ireland.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Given the circumstances, I would think that the current XLB batch will quite likely stay on Airlink for a number of years to come until an ideal replacement is found. They could end up setting a new record for the amount of years a single batch has been assigned to Airlink in decades, but they are well suited to the service and don't seem in need of replacing yet, espescially as there's not really an ideal replacement currently available. A final diesel order of a custom batch of XLBs from ADL is not impossible, however I would think it more likely that the 2019 batch will stay on Airlink until either an appropriate electric replacement becomes available or they find a completely different solution to the problem.

They need replacing sooner rather than later, they're the hardest worked vehicles in the fleet and it's starting to show.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I should imagine that reliability may be going down and the interiors also looking and feeling tired

 

[Lx008]

I should imagine that reliability may be going down and the interiors also looking and feeling tired

Indeed they are, took trying 5 different seats to find a working usb charger last time

 

[stevenedin]

I certainly noticed that 1126 and 1127 feel slower than the rest of the XLBs. They must be more worn out than the others.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

They need replacing sooner rather than later, they're the hardest worked vehicles in the fleet and it's starting to show.

Finding a solution is not going to be without its problems though. I would like to see the EvoSeti option, but I’m just not sure how likely that really is. Certainly if some were ordered for the Airlink, I’d find it disappointing if they didn’t opt for some for other routes, but that specifically is probably very unlikely anyway.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Finding a solution is not going to be without its problems though. I would like to see the EvoSeti option, but I’m just not sure how likely that really is. Certainly if some were ordered for the Airlink, I’d find it disappointing if they didn’t opt for some for other routes, but that specifically is probably very unlikely anyway.

I think we'll see the current ones carry on until what's in the works come to fruition. I'm very much of the opinion that all the current ones could do with an external refurbishment and maybe new (more modern) branding.