SWR Evening Out ticket validity

[Lifelong]

Good evening,

I encountered no issues with this today but am wondering if I would have if I’d encountered a revenue officer….

Bought an evening out return ticket from Milford to Guildford, from Godalming (I started short as I got a lift part way on way in but wanted to go back whole way to Milford).

So I got the first train Godalming past 12.00. But whilst on it, I realised the train hadn’t stopped at Milford, and the first one which would have been valid from there wasn’t for another half an hour.

So was the ticket valid as bought?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good evening,

I encountered no issues with this today but am wondering if I would have if I’d encountered a revenue officer….

Bought an evening out return ticket from Milford to Guildford, from Godalming (I started short as I got a lift part way on way in but wanted to go back whole way to Milford).

So I got the first train Godalming past 12.00. But whilst on it, I realised the train hadn’t stopped at Milford, and the first one which would have been valid from there wasn’t for another half an hour.

So was the ticket valid as bought?

I believe so (and I’m happy to stand corrected), because it is not an Advance ticket, and therefore you are permitted to start at a later station, and by doing so after 12:00 you used the Evening Out Return within restriction. Anyone who’d told you you were invalid as you’d have had to have set off from Milford before 12, you would simply tell that you had boarded at Godalming instead, and they should be aware that it had departed from Godalming after 12.

 

[infobleep]

It is indeed valid. I had wondered if it wasn't valid on trains into London before 2 pm but that isn't the case with this ticket, unlike some others where one isn't actually going to London but is on a train that is.

You might like to have some evidence in case questioned but it's valid.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is indeed valid. I had wondered if it wasn't valid on trains into London before 2 pm but that isn't the case with this ticket, unlike some others where one isn't actually going to London but is on a train that is.

You might like to have some evidence in case questioned but it's valid.

I think the Evening Out Returns are fantastic. Valid long before the actual evening, but at a much reduced price, and with railcard discount allowed as well. I’ve made much use of them when based at the family home on SWR’s patch, and when travelling to and from Waterloo off Euston when visiting from Manchester.

 

[infobleep]

I think the Evening Out Returns are fantastic. Valid long before the actual evening, but at a much reduced price, and with railcard discount allowed as well. I’ve made much use of them when based at the family home on SWR’s patch, and when travelling to and from Waterloo off Euston when visiting from Manchester.

They are good but of course the minimum fare applies to some railcards so the discount doesn't always exist if under £13.00 Monday to Friday.

Super Off-Peak tickets are also good but not every station has those.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are good but of course the minimum fare applies to some railcards so the discount doesn't always exist if under £13.00 Monday to Friday.

Super Off-Peak tickets are also good but not every station has those.

Super Off Peak tickets tend to catch people out more though, due to confusion over validity times, I’ve found.

 

[infobleep]

Super Off Peak tickets tend to catch people out more though, due to confusion over validity times, I’ve found.

I can appreciate that. I know travelling from Clapham Junction in the evening, between swt hours is not allowed.

So much so that I once avoided doing so on an Evening Out Return, only to find I didn't need to do that as it was valid with fhat ticket.

 

[redreni]

There will be historians of these fares who know better than me, but as I understand them, it wasn't so much a case of keeping the existing peak and off-peak fares and introducing a new, cheaper ticket type with tighter restrictions on when they could be used.

Rather, in general terms I believe it was more a case of (1) making the restrictions on the existing off-peak fares much more stringent and re-naming them 'super off-peak' (or in SWR's case, 'Evening Out' and 'Sunday Out'), and (2) introducing a new, more expensive tier of walk-up fares, giving them the same or similar restrictions on when they could be used as the cheaper off-peak tickets used to have, and calling them 'off-peak'. So the intention and effect was to increase fares, but also reduce the severity of the cliff-edge between peak and off-peak (by essentially having two, smaller cliff-edges).

I agree the Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets are pretty good value, though. For those of us with Network Railcards, you get a discount on super off-peak (subject to the 10am rule and the minimum fare Monday to Friday) but not on Advances, which means I very rarely use Advances on SWR.

 

[GreenReaper]

I feel like SWR's website may have mis-sold this ticket type to me. I booked a retjrn from Welling to Godalming via Waterloo [East] leaving Waterloo at 13:00 Saturday and returning from Godalming at 19:42. I didn't know exactly what an Evening Out actually was but it was offered to me for this specific route and time, which included non-seat reservations on the SWR legs.

From my reading of the rules (which were not adequately presented in the purchase flow - as I recall they fobbed me off to National Rail which just said there may be time restrictions) this is valid for the Waterloo to Godalming legs, but not for Welling to Waterloo East before 2pm, and indeed I got told to seek assistance both ways for that at the barrier (code 117 on the way home). It's a bit weird because I'm both going into and out of London both ways.

In the end I was let through the barrier by staff at Waterloo East without conversation both ways, but it made me worried.

 

[Watershed]

I feel like SWR's website may have mis-sold this ticket type to me. I booked a retjrn from Welling to Godalming via Waterloo [East] leaving Waterloo at 13:00 Saturday and returning from Godalming at 19:42. I didn't know exactly what an Evening Out actually was but it was offered to me for this specific route and time, which included non-seat reservations on the SWR legs.

From my reading of the rules (which were not adequately presented in the purchase flow - as I recall they fobbed me off to National Rail which just said there may be time restrictions) this is valid for the Waterloo to Godalming legs, but not for Welling to Waterloo East before 2pm

Welcome to the forum!

Firstly, it's worth noting that any ticket which an accredited National Rail ticket retailer sells is automatically valid for the journey you select when booking. This is a matter of basic contract and consumer law; if the ticket is issued, it doesn't matter whether the retailer has made an error or not - the itinerary/ticket combination stands.

So even if SWR's website had made an error (in fact, it sold the ticket entirely correctly) you would be entitled to travel in accordance with your selected journey.

Furthermore, as hinted above, the restrictions do not prevent you from arriving into London before 2pm for this journey. They merely prohibit you from starting your journey before 12:01, and leaving certain London stations (mainly London Terminals and nearby stations) between 16:00-19:00.

Leaving Welling after 12:00 and Waterloo at 13:00 is entirely in keeping with those rules, so SWR's website was correct to sell you the ticket for your chosen journey.

You can see the above rules in the text associated with the applicable restriction code, UR (available at nre.co.uk/UR). This link is printed on the ticket for reference, and should also be shown somewhere when you buy a ticket online. If SWR aren't displaying it, this is technically a breach of the industry's retailer accreditation rules- although it's far from certain whether (r when) they will be forced to comply.

It's worth noting that there are different restriction codes applying to SWR's Evening Out tickets, depending on the journey you are making. As above, some don't have restrictions on arriving into London, so it's worthwhile checking the applicable restriction code (and its text) if you want to find out the details.

and indeed I got told to seek assistance both ways for that at the barrier (code 117 on the way home). It's a bit weird because I'm both going into and out of London both ways.

In the end I was let through the barrier by staff at Waterloo East without conversation both ways, but it made me worried.

Barriers are usually programmed to accept or reject tickets by very crude rules of thumb, because barrier manufacturers don't tend to let station operators configure them in sufficient detail. Therefore whether a ticket opens a barrier isn't a reliable test for whether it's actually valid.

This is particularly the case if you're using a ticket that is issued to/from a different station than the one whose barriers you're passing through, or if you're using an Off-Peak fare that is controlled by a different train company (such as SWR) to the one that manages the barriers in question (such as Southeastern).

Both of the above factors apply in this case, so it's difficult to draw much of a conclusion from the rejection. Your ticket was entirely valid (provided you left after 12pm) so the rejection certainly wasn't an indication that it was invalid - it just meant the barrier wasn't programmed to recognise it as valid.

In any event, error code 117 would suggest that the rejection was because the barrier thought your ticket had already expired (see this page for a list of each error code and its meaning). That means the time of day probably wasn't a factor in the rejection.

Obviously having a valid ticket rejected can be a bit frustrating, and sadly the level of training for barrier staff is often woefully lacking - omitting basic details like the meaning of restriction codes. This means that some staff simply take the barrier's acceptance or rejection of a ticket as "gospel", in other words that the ticket would have opened the barriers if it were valid. That's not at all the case, but it's easy to see how conflict can arise from that situation.

 

[GreenReaper]

Thanks for the welcome and the detailed reply! As you say, I would've thought it would not sell it to me if it wasn't valid, but the restrictions I read online were confusing and the ticket barriers didn't help - and I've heard the news about prosecutions for inadvertent correct fare evasion.

On selecting outbound in the little (i) next to the fare class selection and pricing was a popup including "Evening Out Return tickets may require you to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route." - but it was not more specific than that.

After proceeding to select a return I was presented with a generic link to "View ticket restrictions for this journey" leading to the "Ticket and Restriction Code Finder" which suggested when I searched for Evening Out that the code was (one of) "EVB, SK4", which had similar text and talked about a restriction code which was not present online that I can see. SRW also said "Valid only for travel via London Terminals, but not valid on Underground or Elizabeth line services."

UR was on the ticket itself, but I only got that once it was printed and at that point I had four minutes to board at Welling, so I didn't notice it when being told to seek assistance.

I did then look up Evening Out and became uncertain because per SWR's main page for it which I had not used ("Evening Out train tickets") says "If you’re travelling into any London terminal station with us, your Evening Out ticket will be valid on any train arriving after 14:00, Monday to Saturday."

I guess the "us" is operative here since it is not a SWR service I used to get in? But you can see how I was confused, since from my perspective I was both travelling into and outside of London.

Regarding the odd barrier code, I guess it's possible that in a rush I presented the outbound ticket on return, and/or the return on outbound. That would seem to make sense as I did it when getting off at Godalming and was waved through, so kept both.

 

[infobleep]

There will be historians of these fares who know better than me, but as I understand them, it wasn't so much a case of keeping the existing peak and off-peak fares and introducing a new, cheaper ticket type with tighter restrictions on when they could be used.

Rather, in general terms I believe it was more a case of (1) making the restrictions on the existing off-peak fares much more stringent and re-naming them 'super off-peak' (or in SWR's case, 'Evening Out' and 'Sunday Out'), and (2) introducing a new, more expensive tier of walk-up fares, giving them the same or similar restrictions on when they could be used as the cheaper off-peak tickets used to have, and calling them 'off-peak'. So the intention and effect was to increase fares, but also reduce the severity of the cliff-edge between peak and off-peak (by essentially having two, smaller cliff-edges).

I agree the Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets are pretty good value, though. For those of us with Network Railcards, you get a discount on super off-peak (subject to the 10am rule and the minimum fare Monday to Friday) but not on Advances, which means I very rarely use Advances on SWR.

I rarely use advances because they are restricted to individual TOCs for the majority of journeys I make and the majority I make invove two TOCs.

The super off-peak tickets are also good value if, like myself, you mostly travel in the afternoon and evening.