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Train tickets on EBAY
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RailUK Forums
causton
Established Member
No they aren't! Most tickets from ToDs say the name of the cardholder below which is a good way to check, although not foolproof.
Although that doesn't in itself mean much - if I buy a ticket for my other half/family member it has my name at the bottom but giving it to them to use is clearly an acceptable transfer of ticket...
causton
Established Member
Indeed, that was what I meant by 'not foolproof'. I can't actually think why that name *would* be useful -- any guesses?
I know it's not allowed but I have no idea how it would realistically be enforced!
nedchester
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Exactly so don't know why some make such a fuss about this on here.....
SS4
Established Member
Because it's technically illegal? It's much the same way forums act on downloading music for free. Just because it happens it doesn't make it ok.
As for the train tickets I doubt anyone would notice although given it's status I'd avoid it for fear of scam, especially since only AP tickets will be on sale
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
A ticket remains the property of the Railway, so by selling them on eBay you are technically stealing, and by buying them you are handling stolen goods.
It never fails to amaze me how many people spout such complete pompous guff on this forum.
Real world? If you buy them, can't use them, sell them on eBay and someone buys them then they will be able to use them.
Technically to the nth letter of the (bye) law it's wrong but as nobody is going to know and as nobody has been defrauded then ultimately it will be fine.
Real world? If you buy them, can't use them, sell them on eBay and someone buys them then they will be able to use them.
Technically to the nth letter of the (bye) law it's wrong but as nobody is going to know and as nobody has been defrauded then ultimately it will be fine.
The difference is that in downloading music for free the owner has lost out on royalties. With a rail ticket, the TOCs concerned have been paid when the ticket was first bought so its very hard to see the use or purpose of this rule. Yes there's the risk of being scammed but that's the same concern as with many other purchases and the rule presumably pre-dates the internet anyway. Why should a TOC have any interest in whether a ticket is used by a different person as long as its only used once?
moonrakerz
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Ah ! That was the real reason why they wanted everyone to carry an ID card -to stop illegal immigrants buying cheap train tickets on ebay
Ah ! That was the real reason why they wanted everyone to carry an ID card -to stop illegal immigrants buying cheap train tickets on ebay
Could obviously be the future to prevent such things. If you buy an advance fare from SJ in Sweden it is now "personalised" - you must provide your name when booking, it is printed on the ticket (or in the sms, etc) and you must provide ID (passport, ID card, drivers license) onboard the train to verify that you are the person named. So far I've only seen that here with the print-at-home tickets you can get...
Because it loses them the sale of a higher priced ticket sold nearer the date of departure?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The main object here is to prevent the ticket being printed off and used multiple times
Would eBay tickets normally sell at a higher price? I see it as a way of getting something back on tickets where the seller can't/won't get a refund.
If a regular trade in AP did start up then I can see the point of clamping down on it.
No but it soon would if it was allowed.
True, after a fashion. The ticket isn't what you buy; you buy the right to make a journey, and it's evidenced by a ticket.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
The ticket itself is still the property of the railway. The fact that the ticket is evidentiary of the right to travel is neither here nor there.
penaltyfines
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Stealing - i.e. theft - is completely unrelated.
If there's a crime that's being committed, it's the breach of the byelaw. Handling stolen goods made me laugh though!
Even if you were questioned over the ticket, how could they possibly, realistically, prove that the person that originally purchased it didn't buy it for the use of the purchaser? There's nothing to link the ticket back to the sale.
Speeding is wrong... a million other analogies etc etc I think this is one of these things that happens a lot (I know a lot of people that do it at work) and will never stop.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Nope, you have the intention of permanently depriving the owner of the item.
Erm, the fact it has been sold publically on eBay, who will hand over related records?
Your indignation has got the better of you though - I never said whether it would get to court or not, just that it would have fitted the definition.
heart-of-wessex
Established Member
I think it is in Ebays do's and don'ts too, that you cannot sell tickets
I have seen tickets on and off on there for years now
I have seen tickets on and off on there for years now
From eBay's T&C's. Train tickets are restricted:
Train Tickets
The sale of all UK train tickets (including Eurostar tickets) by unauthorised persons is not permitted under the railway byelaws, made under Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005. Therefore, unless you are an authorised seller as described below, you may not list train tickets on eBay.
In Ireland, the sale of all train tickets (including LUAS and DART tickets) is not permitted under the relevant railway bylaws.
An authorised person means someone acting in the course of his or her duties who is an employee or agent of the relevant train operator, or any other person authorised by the train operator or a person operating any railway assets.
Any person who is authorised as described above must make it clear in the listing that he or she is authorised to sell train tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Struggling to find a clear reference about section 46 referring to resale of tickets though. Looking on government website doesn't seem to make anything clear.
Train Tickets
The sale of all UK train tickets (including Eurostar tickets) by unauthorised persons is not permitted under the railway byelaws, made under Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005. Therefore, unless you are an authorised seller as described below, you may not list train tickets on eBay.
In Ireland, the sale of all train tickets (including LUAS and DART tickets) is not permitted under the relevant railway bylaws.
An authorised person means someone acting in the course of his or her duties who is an employee or agent of the relevant train operator, or any other person authorised by the train operator or a person operating any railway assets.
Any person who is authorised as described above must make it clear in the listing that he or she is authorised to sell train tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Struggling to find a clear reference about section 46 referring to resale of tickets though. Looking on government website doesn't seem to make anything clear.
Still at a loss to understand why it is forbidden (surprised no one has yet suggested the "seller" is depriving the TOC of its admin charge).
If the ticket belongs to the TOC, please could they come round and sop littering my house with their little bits of card
If the ticket belongs to the TOC, please could they come round and sop littering my house with their little bits of card
You will not find the specific details here; s46 allows railway operators or the SoS to make byelaws, details of the specific legislation can be found within the byelaws themselves.
John @ home
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It's the byelaws which ebay claim are made under Section 46, not the prohibition on sale of tickets.
The Railway byelaws themselves claim to be "Made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Rail Authority (the Authority) and confirmed under Schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Secretary of State for Transport on 22 June 2005". This authority under the 2000 Act may well have been renewed in Section 46 of the 2005 Act.
Byelaw 21 deals with Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets.
That is the definition of "Theft", but in the case of rail tickets, theft wouldn't come in to it. The only way it would become theft, would be if a ticket was stolen from a customer by way of a buglary or pick pocketing or similar. Then it would be theft from the passenger, not the TOC. The CPS wouldn't entertain "theft" by purchasing tickets on Ebay, as they only tend to proceed with cases they stand a chance of winning. At a push you might be able to use the Fraud Act I suppose, but what's the point when the Byelaws are there to be used and are much easier to convict upon?
You could even use the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, after all, if you've managed to get to the questioning stage, I'm sure you'll be able to ascertain the "customer's" intention to avoid paying for his/her rail fare!
gordonthemoron
Established Member
if train tickets remain the property of the TOC or whatever, how does this affect print-at-home? Surely the paper on which the ticket is printed belongs to you or your employer? (as for that matter does the ink)
Scotty
Member
Is that similar to computer software on CDs? When you buy software, you buy the CD itself and a license to install and use the software. You don't own the data.
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