News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[duffield]

I'm sure this will create a lively debate.
Apologies if already posted elsewhere, I haven't found anything.

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.
Quote:

Rail bosses have been accused of patronising passengers by hiding trains’ departure information minutes before they are due to leave in a bid to tackle last-moment platform dashes.

Under the scheme, which is being trialled at King’s Cross, the final call for long-distance trains will be made four minutes before departure. Train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.


Network Rail said the scheme was designed to stop passengers dashing for trains. A poster for the scheme said: “This is so everyone can board safely and keep trains running on time.”

But passengers have reacted with fury, saying they should be given the information to decide for themselves.

Many also fear the system will cause more rushing than it prevents. They pointed out that trains’ platform departures are often only revealed minutes before they are due to depart, so the new system could only give them seconds to react to platform announcements.

Link:

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

Scheme aimed at stopping platform dashes sees schedules deleted from boards three minutes before departure

www.theguardian.com

 

[J-2739]

Have they not been doing that already? When I hang out at King's Cross, I always notice that they remove a train's departure information quite a bit in advance of its actual departure.

 

[800001]

I'm sure this will create a lively debate.
Apologies if already posted elsewhere, I haven't found anything.

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.
Quote:


Link:

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

Scheme aimed at stopping platform dashes sees schedules deleted from boards three minutes before departure

www.theguardian.com

They are already deleted 2 minutes before departure as it is.
LNER do the same on the main departure boards for there services at origin stations.
Kings Cross is the same I think, it’s disappears from main screens, but the service will still show on the individual platform screens.

 

[hexagon789]

Glasgow Central has just gone from 60 to 90 seconds, so I assume it's a decision to increase the margin at Network Rail operated stations?

 

[Mag_seven]

They are already deleted 2 minutes before departure as it is.

2 minutes is bad enough - there is none of this nonsense in Switzerland where the train details remain on the screen right up to the point of departure.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can see the point to this.

Today the 1227 London - Cambridge service was still at the platform at 1230. It was no longer on the board. I may have attempted to catch it if it was still on the board.

I was intending to get the 1257 so it would be an unexpected bonus.

The but is of course that regular users know which platform their train departs from, so they will still run even with the train removed from the board. But for a lot of trains at Kings Cross, in particular the LNER ones, if you are only looking at the departure board 3 minutes before hand, you are going to struggle to get the train. (Best case scenario Just getting on the rear door)

 

[bramling]

I'm sure this will create a lively debate.
Apologies if already posted elsewhere, I haven't found anything.

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.
Quote:


Link:

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

Scheme aimed at stopping platform dashes sees schedules deleted from boards three minutes before departure

www.theguardian.com

On balance I don’t think this is too much of a bad thing. We all want to see trains leave on time, and why should a whole train full of people be held up due to a couple of latecomers, not to mention of course that it creates a flashpoint for staff. Especially as people don’t seem to bother to walk quickly nowadays also.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I suppose just changing the advertised departure time from 1300 to 1257, but keep the working timetable departure at 1300 has been thought of and rejected?

 

[williamn]

On balance I don’t think this is too much of a bad thing. We all want to see trains leave on time, and why should a whole train full of people be held up due to a couple of latecomers, not to mention of course that it creates a flashpoint for staff. Especially as people don’t seem to bother to walk quickly nowadays also.

Because they're not late? 3 minutes is plenty of time to get to all of the platforms from the Kings Cross concourse, walking not running. When so many people are travelling on Advance tickets it seems to be perverse to increase the chance of missing your train because the platform information isn't available.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

It is a ridiculous / dangerous policy for late evening or last trains. Nearly got stranded at King's Cross the other week at 11pm because of this when we'd been delayed by overcrowding on the tube. Fortunately I was able to find the train without the benefit of the information boards doing what they're bloody there for. Platform info was suppressed from the National Rail website / app too.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Maybe the TOCs could have two timetables? One would dictate when the train departs the platform, the other would say when the last public boarding time is. You could call the first one the “working timetable” and the second the “public timetable”. I know, it’ll never catch on.

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a former Station Manager, anything that helps to ensure that passengers present themselves on the platform (and preferably by the right coach in these days of reservations) in comfortable time is a good thing.
I’ve seen two passengers drop dead with heart attacks whilst rushing for trains and it’s not a nice experience (attempting CPR as a first aider whilst people stop to gawp and in front of a distraught partner isn’t much fun either).
This is not a new idea. When ‘my’ station got new Solari indicators in the early 1980s the functionality for ‘early clear’ in the booking hall/on the barrier line was built in as standard.

 

[SeanG]

Shouldn't this mean 3 minutes needs to be added onto the minimum connection time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the TOCs could have two timetables? One would dictate when the train departs the platform, the other would say when the last public boarding time is. You could call the first one the “working timetable” and the second the “public timetable”. I know, it’ll never catch on.

Bingo. The public timetable should be the last time you can board (or pass any barrier to do so), and at that time it should be on the screens. The WTT can show what it likes as it's for staff.

 

[185]

2 minutes is bad enough - there is none of this nonsense in Switzerland where the train details remain on the screen right up to the point of departure.

...because in Switzerland, people are generally better behaved, competent and don't take risks.

After the Merseyrail incident, regardless of the cause, insurers insist on a number of measures to avoid footing the bill for a society where everything is someone else's fault.

90 seconds is about right. 1 minute to the train, doors shut at 30 seconds before.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm sure this will create a lively debate.
Apologies if already posted elsewhere, I haven't found anything.

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.
Quote:


Link:

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

Scheme aimed at stopping platform dashes sees schedules deleted from boards three minutes before departure

www.theguardian.com

I've just fixed the Guardian quote on behalf of Network Rail

Network Rail said the scheme was designed to stop passengers dashing for trains using the rail network. A poster for the scheme said: “This is so everyone can board safely and keep trains running on time stay at home or drive instead.”

 

[yorkie]

I suppose just changing the advertised departure time from 1300 to 1257, but keep the working timetable departure at 1300 has been thought of and rejected?

That would be too sensible for this country.

 

[Ghostbus]

All this will do is increase abuse and even assaults on staff when people find out they could have caught their train had they not been standing on the concourse utterly baffled that their planned train wasn't listed.

Such a person was already cutting it fine, so is presumably not in the best frame of mind to be told they've just been made to look like a fool by the railway. They're going to be angry and want to lash out.

And they might be very fit and be very handy with their fists. I know I was (very fit, not violent) when I used to aim to catch trains with mere minutes to spare. It's my time, what business is it of the railway how fine I cut it? On the vanishingly rare occasion I left it too late, I just took it on the chin. My fault.

It will also lead to more general queries of staff. It will annoy them because the travelling public will be asking about information they can easily clean from the giant screen. But the railway has now given people a reason to doubt what they're seeing.

 

[PG]

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.

Network Rail said the scheme was designed to stop passengers dashing for trains.

Oh the irony, given the rollicking NR have had in the past year half a mile further along the Euston Road over safety, with passengers dashing for trains. If they implement this at Euston some departures might only be on the board for a couple of minutes!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That would be too sensible for this country.

...and wouldn't all the passengers start moaning about late departures if they did that anyway?

 

[Via Bank]

Look, at some point the rail operators need to recognise that sometimes people will arrive late for their train and they will run to make their connection. It’s all well and good to say “well they should get here earlier” but that’s the reality of how people move and exist. Buses get stuck in traffic, tubes get broken, bike tyres get punctured, babies need emergency toilet breaks etc.

Disappearing trains from the boards 3 minutes before departure might make sense on a metro system with trains 5 minutes apart. When the next train might be more than an hour away and may cost you £hundreds because your Advance fare is no longer valid, it just looks like shocking customer service. And I’m also not convinced it’s going to stop the ’problem’ of people running for trains because that’s what people will do anyway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Disappearing trains from the boards 3 minutes before departure might make sense on a metro system with trains 5 minutes apart.

It doesn't even make sense on a metro system: I can vouch for that from experience on the Elizabeth line (off-peak frequency on each branch: 7 or 8 minutes). If the next train to my destination is showing as anything like 8-11 minutes, I almost always run as fast as I can down the escalators because of the chance there could be a train in a minute or so that has been 'disappeared' from the departure board. If TfL just did the sensible thing and showed the train so I could see exactly how much time I had, then probably a lot of the time I would not run because I'd know that either I can comfortably make the first train without running, or I have so little chance of making it that I may as well wait for the next one anyway.

 

[SteveM70]

So I’m travelling on an advance. I arrive at Kings Cross 3 minutes before my train is due to leave because the tube was delayed a bit. I walk onto the concourse and my train isn’t showing on the display, but it’s a minute’s walk away on platform 8. I miss my train because of NR’s decision not to tell me where it is. The TOC shrug and say sorry mate, advance ticket, you’ve missed your train and need to buy another ticket for the next one

And we wonder why people use their car instead

 

[Harpo]

...because in Switzerland, people are generally better behaved, competent and don't take risks.

So Brits are ill behaved, risk-taking incompetents and Switzerland has none?

 

[Kenny G]

It doesn't even make sense on a metro system: I can vouch for that from experience on the Elizabeth line (off-peak frequency on each branch: 7 or 8 minutes). If the next train to my destination is showing as anything like 8-11 minutes, I almost always run as fast as I can down the escalators because of the chance there could be a train in a minute or so that has been 'disappeared' from the departure board. If TfL just did the sensible thing and showed the train so I could see exactly how much time I had, then probably a lot of the time I would not run because I'd know that either I can comfortably make the first train without running, or I have so little chance of making it that I may as well wait for the next one anyway.

Precisely. With the DLR the absence of a displayed train is a clear indicator there is one on the platform and it is time to go full throttle sprint to catch it. No-one seems to think that for many people dashing to catch trains is part of their daily exercise regime and probably helps prevent heart attacks.

 

[The exile]

As long as you don’t get the ridiculous situation where (say) the 22.00 disappears from the board at 21.57 because it’s 3 minutes before departure time despite the fact that the inbound working to form it is still at Finsbury Park. Happens elsewhere….

So Brits are ill behaved, risk-taking incompetents and Switzerland has none?

Whether that is the case or not, we have long been known for a lack of the kind of deference to authority that even today is a feature of the Germanic cultures. I know Switzerland is only partly Germanic…

 

[Cricketer8for9]

It happens at Victoria. I don’t want to give Network Rail ideas but they haven’t synchronised this with the next train to X board which continues to display platform Y at the appropriate time.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As a former Station Manager, anything that helps to ensure that passengers present themselves on the platform

That says all you need to know about too many railway staff's attitude to the passengers. We are to do as we are told, like good little soldiers.

No-one at Kings Cross, particularly on an Advance ticket, cuts it that fine on purpose.

 

[robbeech]

If there was an ounce of competence left in certain areas of the railway id consider this idea as having potential for some benefit.

In the real world its implementation at 2 minutes causes problems many staff don’t have the experience to deal with so expanding this by 50% will only increase problems.

It feels like another disconnection between parts of the railway. A system that just runs away automatically in the background whilst all hell is breaking loose on the concourse with no actual way to stop it as nobody will know how to.

Trains frequently don’t get assigned a platform (at least to display on the boards) until only a couple of minutes before their departure time, even in minor disruption, but I don’t trust there would be enough competence within the railway to deal with this. We will almost certainly end up in situations where a train leaves the board having never displayed a platform.

That all said, more and more people are using apps to see platform information, and certainly when you have a seat booked with LNER they send a text with platform info once it’s known. Of course this has its own potential issues during disruption if they do a last minute swap but I feel less people read the boards than only a few years ago.
Taking King’s Cross as the example it’s actually really time consuming when you’re up against it time wise to come off the tube walk up the concourse to see the train (which will be on the furthest left screen, the one furthest away from the ground floor platform access point) to then walk back again, perhaps through a thousand people to get to the train. Unless your train is likely to go from 9+ you’re just as well going through the barrier and looking at the displays on the end of each platform as you walk across them.

t's my time, what business is it of the railway how fine I cut it?

None, providing you do not run.

 

[43096]

Bingo. The public timetable should be the last time you can board (or pass any barrier to do so), and at that time it should be on the screens. The WTT can show what it likes as it's for staff.

What bit of “departure time” do people struggle with? It is when it departs!