News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[Sad Sprinter]

This situation reminds me of the complaint I had a few years ago of footbridge windows being frosted out so people cannot see the fact their train is near or at the station…

The problem with that, and the topic of this thread, is that people are going to learn you can’t see the train, so will run anyway out of precaution. Or they’re in the depths of Kings Cross’s Northern Line platforms and will run anyway to the station concourse 10 mins before departure so they can see their train platform. Exporting heart attacks from NR to TFL property.

I too have noticed the platform indicators withholding trains at Victoria. The irony is that many times in the past as I’ve stood there resigned to an 10 mins wait, I notice that the smaller departure screens, literally right in front of you above the departure gates will still display the soon to be departing train. As such me and a few others have ran like hell through the ticket gates and past the first two cramped coaches to get onto the train.

It seems to be a class British case of “management knows best”, rather than leaning into genuine customer service and building a product around people’s natural behaviour. People are going to be late, sure we need to stop people from holding train doors open so Gazza and Jez can get on too, but what’s proposed here is just going to generate the same problems in different ways or areas.

 

[357]

Departure time is the time the train departs. End of.

Perhaps at key stations there should be something along the lines of "boarding closes at" the same way airlines have "gate closes".

However, part of me is starting to think this thread is going in circles, has run its course now and is going to be locked.

 

[Turtle]

Departure time is the time the train departs. End of.

Perhaps at key stations there should be something along the lines of "boarding closes at" the same way airlines have "gate closes".

However, part of me is starting to think this thread is going in circles, has run its course now and is going to be locked.

Spot on.
All part of an underlying mentality that still exists in a section
of the Railway i.e. we could run a decent service if it wasn't for the passengers

 

[bramling]

Spot on.
All part of an underlying mentality that still exists in a section
of the Railway i.e. we could run a decent service if it wasn't for the passengers

I’m not sure it has anything to do with that. Most passengers who have made the effort to turn up on time would like to see their train leave on time, not be delayed by a load of stragglers, which happens at pretty much every terminus. From a passenger point of view, if the industry can address this nuisance then I’m all for it.

 

[renegademaster]

other crew talking about late trains be complaining?

How many people are out there complaining about trains being +3 delayed?

Plus journey planners can still give the correct arrival times

 

[357]

How many people are out there complaining about trains being +3 delayed?

Plus journey planners can still give the correct arrival times

If this was ever implemented come to this forum and watch the fireworks

 

[Spamcan81]

Or they could just manage their time a bit better and not have to run at all!? The logical extension of this argument is that the railway should not have a timetable at all, just in case it causes some people to rush.

No matter how well a person manages their time, their will always be situations where the method of travel to the station is subject to unforeseen delay. I get one bus an hour to my local station and if it runs to time I have ample time to catch the train. If however it is delayed then it can be very tight so are you telling me that I should go one hour earlier just in case?

 

[Via Bank]

It seems to be a class British case of “management knows best”, rather than leaning into genuine customer service and building a product around people’s natural behaviour.

Hear hear. My first instinct was that this is the classic British management solution of having ticked the box on the RA to say “we’ve mitigated it, please don’t sue us” without any consideration as to whether the mitigation actually does anything or leads to better outcomes.

Add to this that it’s a tiny and cheap change all things considered (changing a configuration value in some software) that saves them the hard work of infra changes to make falls less likely, or additional staff on the concourse to direct people to trains, or ticketing changes to introduce flexibility for people who miss their trains - I’m sure in someone’s performance review it’ll look great. Less so to the customer.

My possibly controversial take is that people will run when they’re late for something, and sometimes when they’re stressed (eg late & trying to catch up) they’ll either trip & hurt themselves or have some kind of respiratory or cardiac incident. That’s sadly a fact of life that has to be dealt with when conveying humans.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I’m not sure it has anything to do with that. Most passengers who have made the effort to turn up on time would like to see their train leave on time, not be delayed by a load of stragglers, which happens at pretty much every terminus. From a passenger point of view, if the industry can address this nuisance then I’m all for it.

But realistically, what ultimately matters once everyone is on board is not whether the train starts moving at the advertised time, but whether it arrives at the places people are going to on time. People only get concerned if it leaves late because they worry that means it's going to arrive late at their destination. That's easily resolved by the guard mentioning that the train is on time when he does the initial announcement - which from my experience (admittedly mainly on Avanti/LNWR, not on LNER) guards tend to do very quickly after the train has set off anyway. Also, if we adopted a system where the advertised time in public timetables is the latest time you can get on the train, with wheels actually moving a minute or so later if it's a large terminus or a few seconds later for most stations, then most passengers would likely get used to that, and not be worried anyway about the train leaving at advertised time + dispatch time.

 

[bramling]

But realistically, what ultimately matters once everyone is on board is not whether the train starts moving at the advertised time, but whether it arrives at the places people are going to on time. People only get concerned if it leaves late because they worry that means it's going to arrive late at their destination. That's easily resolved by the guard mentioning that the train is on time when he does the initial announcement - which from my experience (admittedly mainly on Avanti/LNWR, not on LNER) guards tend to do very quickly after the train has set off anyway. Also, if we adopted a system where the advertised time in public timetables is the latest time you can get on the train, with wheels actually moving a minute or so later if it's a large terminus or a few seconds later for most stations, then most passengers would likely get used to that, and not be worried anyway about the train leaving at advertised time + dispatch time.

I want my journey to be right time, as I know the effect that even a small delay can have when it comes to priority through junctions. Most people make the effort to turn up in good time at termini, so to be honest I have zero concern for those who turn up at the last minute. They can wait for the next train, just like I would do if I was late for whatever reason.

As an aside, latecomers can also be an irritant on board the train, making a nuisance of themselves when everyone else has settled down. I wouldn’t advocate having a policy of removing departures from boards for that reason alone, but it’s an added bonus.

 

[Haywain]

My possibly controversial take is that people will run when they’re late for something, and sometimes when they’re stressed (eg late & trying to catch up) they’ll either trip & hurt themselves or have some kind of respiratory or cardiac incident.

The arrangement of departure board displays will have next to no effect on whether people choose to rush.

 

[Vexed]

After a bit of discussion about busses on the previous page I thought I'd just mention that busses can leave timing points up to 60 seconds early, and based on my experiences at home and here at uni they very often shut the doors and go at precisely 60 seconds "early" if everyone has boarded and there's no traffic.

And that's before we even get to non-timing points...

Frankly I would support clearing LNER 2 mins before departure unless at the far end (plat 0/1) when maybe 2:30 is better. Three feels too much, especially for the platforms closest to the gateline.

It's called a departure time, not a last boarding time! Anyone with experience would know it takes a bit of time to lock up and dispatch, and any irregular travellers will probably arrive early anyway.

It's the needs of the many against the needs of the few and as a passenger I'd prefer right time departures over waiting for someone to run down the platform. If I sometimes miss a train because of it... So be it.

 

[yorkie]

I want my journey to be right time, as I know the effect that even a small delay can have when it comes to priority through junctions. Most people make the effort to turn up in good time at termini, so to be honest I have zero concern for those who turn up at the last minute. They can wait for the next train, just like I would do if I was late for whatever reason.

As an aside, latecomers can also be an irritant on board the train, making a nuisance of themselves when everyone else has settled down. I wouldn’t advocate having a policy of removing departures from boards for that reason alone, but it’s an added bonus.

This is really scraping the barrel now. Yes, we know you don't like it when connections are maintained in the event of late running, but to make you truly happy, it sounds like trains would need to leave early.

Again, as we've seen before, it doesn't matter how convincing the arguments are, those who want to keep the status quo will dig their heels in. It's not really a constructive argument any more at this point.

After a bit of discussion about busses on the previous page I thought I'd just mention that busses can leave timing points up to 60 seconds early, and based on my experiences at home and here at uni they very often shut the doors and go at precisely 60 seconds "early" if everyone has boarded and there's no traffic.

And that's before we even get to non-timing points...

That shouldn't happen.

Frankly I would support clearing LNER 2 mins before departure unless at the far end (plat 0/1) when maybe 2:30 is better. Three feels too much, especially for the platforms closest to the gateline.

It's called a departure time, not a last boarding time! Anyone with experience would know it takes a bit of time to lock up and dispatch, and any irregular travellers will probably arrive early anyway.

This is a weak argument with no substance to it. Have you read the discussion above? There are some excellent points that you appear to be ignoring.

It's the needs of the many against the needs of the few and as a passenger I'd prefer right time departures over waiting for someone to run down the platform. If I sometimes miss a train because of it... So be it.

Ah yes, the needs of the few and all that; have you tried telling the Swiss they're doing it all wrong? I don't think it would go down well...

 

[35B]

The point is that operating a timetable reliably requires operational discipline. Being “passenger friendly” by fudging times and allowing discretion at boarding blurs boundaries and encourages both passengers and staff to treat the timetable with less respect.

On a network as capacity constrained as the British one, that tends to cause compounding delays and missed connections.

For LNER departures from Kings Cross, this approach doesn’t seem unreasonable - the combination of station layout and rolling stock does mean that there a cut-off is appropriate. At other stations, the time to platform is a lot less, and the visibility between concourse and platform much greater.

I’m not a fan of running different public and working times. It creates the sense of “it doesn’t matter” while not doing anything to deal with the challenge of people arriving at the last minute. That will undermine not benefit punctuality in the system as a whole.

But it’s important to note that taking departures off a board can only be a means to an end, not a rule. The objective should be delivering right time departures consistently and reliably, so that drivers and signallers then have the maximum opportunity to deliver the subsequent right time arrivals.

 

[yorkie]

The point is that operating a timetable reliably requires operational discipline. Being “passenger friendly” by fudging times and allowing discretion at boarding blurs boundaries and encourages both passengers and staff to treat the timetable with less respect.

If that was so, why is there ever a WTT differential?

On a network as capacity constrained as the British one, that tends to cause compounding delays and missed connections.

Other networks are similarly constrained and highly utilised, yet manage to advertise the last time at which passengers can board.

For LNER departures from Kings Cross, this approach doesn’t seem unreasonable - the combination of station layout and rolling stock does mean that there a cut-off is appropriate. At other stations, the time to platform is a lot less, and the visibility between concourse and platform much greater.

This is entirely your opinion, which I understand is shared by some others, but many passengers clearly don't agree with that opinion. Neither side is ever going to change their opinion; those of us who disagree with you have seen how railways can and should be run, but that won't change your opinion, so we should agree to disagree instead of continuing to go round in circles.

I’m not a fan of running different public and working times. It creates the sense of “it doesn’t matter” while not doing anything to deal with the challenge of people arriving at the last minute. That will undermine not benefit punctuality in the system as a whole.

I don't think so, but I can't see WTT differentials ever disappearing, the questions are more around how and when they are used. I see no compelling reason against advertising a departure slightly before it's booked to, and actually does, depart; any reasons given against this are purely theoretical in nature.

But it’s important to note that taking departures off a board can only be a means to an end, not a rule. The objective should be delivering right time departures consistently and reliably, so that drivers and signallers then have the maximum opportunity to deliver the subsequent right time arrivals.

In my experience, delayed arrivals are typically due to delays that occur during the journey, which cannot be mitigated against by train companies obsessing over locking doors at origin stations as early as possible and making the train wheels start moving a few seconds before the booked time.

 

[renegademaster]

If the LNER Kings cross Edingburgh service lost a minute at every stop you'd have a whopping 6 minutes of extra delay. Clamping down on people trying to get in last minute would benefit frequently stopping suburban/regional operators much more but they don't feel the need to take services off the board with a few minutes to go.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That says all you need to know about too many railway staff's attitude to the apssengers. We are to do as we are told, like good little soldiers.

No-one at Kings Cross, particularly on an Advance ticket, cuts it that fine on purpose.

Well said.
And the red rope is just the cherry on the cake. Little infuriates me more on the railway than seeing the staff pull that across.

We’ve all missed trains, and it can be frustrating, but taking it out on staff members is simply not a mentality I can understand.

I don’t know if you’ve seen The Railway: Keeping Britain On Track, but in the Episode “West Coast Main Line” there is a woman running to catch a Pendolino with all doors open and this platform guy with a Virgin uniform and glasses runs to the bottom of the ramp and stands in front of her in a starfish shape - arms and legs outstretched to the side - to stop her getting through. I cannot explain how beyond furious I would be if anyone did that to me.


Image shows the above

It’s just completely overdramatic and unnecessary behaviour, and if you ask me the red rope is even worse. And the fact when I once saw someone duck under it and run to the open door of an Azuma, they held the train until he was off, is a disgrace. I do not support behaviour like that at all.

 

[Moderating team]

As it doesn't look like either "side" in this debate is going to back down, we will bring this thread to an end at this point.

Thank you to all who contributed.