News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[aar0]

Out in the sticks in Swansea I’ve seen a sign saying that train doors close 40 seconds before departure and a recent addition that access to the platforms will be stopped another minute (I think) before that. Certainly annoying to be so the ticket barriers 2 minutes before departure and watch the train sit for two minutes before leaving when you could have easily got on…

 

[RJ]

This only affects people who use the departure boards as their source of information.

I don’t, I use mobile train describers and cross reference the headcode with the WTT so wouldn’t even notice if the train wasn’t on the departure boards.

But at origin stations I’m in the camp of arriving 20+ minutes before departure (plus contingency for en route delays) so I can pick a good seat, rather than the camp of aiming to arrive on the concourse the minue the train leaves.

 

[KNN]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet - but a hypothetical situation.

You have made your way across London on the Tube after a day out in the capital - and get to the station to catch the last service of the night to your destination some way outside of London - paid for by a nice reasonably costing Advance Ticket for that service.

Just before you hit the top of the escalators from the Tube - the 3 minute window shuts - and the service is removed from the screens before you are within sight of the display to see that happen.

You spend precious seconds searching the displays for your service - which of course is no longer showing - so you think it has been cancelled.

A short while later you see a member of staff and you enquire “hope you can help - I need to get back to X - but the last train of the night there has been cancelled - it wasn’t on the screens”

The staff member then informs you that it wasn’t cancelled - but left on time - and “sorry guv - you’re on your own now”.

Where does that leave the passenger then?

They cannot invoke the cancellation of last train rights (taxi or hotel paid for by the TOC) as the service wasn’t cancelled.

There seem to be a lot of imaginary people cutting it so fine they will have to run and then finding someone else to blame.

It happens already at loads of stations, it's not a new idea and it works fine.

 

[BAFRA77]

There seem to be a lot of imaginary people cutting it so fine they will have to run and then finding someone else to blame.

It happens already at loads of stations, it's not a new idea and it works fine.

Was a genuine question as I don’t know the answer - and you give a self righteous vague answer like that?

I hope you don’t work in any kind of customer facing role…

Anyway - I’m out on this discussion as it seems to have gone straight to the default position of the customer being seen as an inconvenience

 

[py_megapixel]

Surely if 3 minutes is deemed to be the required cutoff time, the solution is to move the advertised departure time 3 mins before the actual planned departure time, not fudge things so that trains disappear from the boards early?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

King's Cross does have the 'please join the train now as it is ready to leave' message, but I'm not sure exactly how many minutes before this is played.

Seems to have a degree of automation at London Victoria, the extent to which it was played for one of my trains last week when the train doors were still shut. I had thought, perhaps wrongly, that it was only played when the platform staff had pressed the Train Ready to Start button (I realise this might be a key to turn).

 

[43066]

Or pickup times. If you cannot do whatever you are doing before a particular time not of your choosing, and then have to catch a train on a 2tph or even 1tph frequency, you may have only minutes in your margin.

IF I left work at the very moment core time ended, and IF the tube and train were running to time, I could just scramble on board the train with a few seconds to spare, and get to school before after-school club closed.
And if you are late collecting the children too often they wouldn't let you use the club any more - the staff there have homes and family commitments

That’s down to individual choices in how people organise their lives. If you’re regularly having to rush so that you arrive with a few seconds to spare then clearly you’re likely to miss trains more often.

Indeed, but it didn’t depart on time and had it been on the screens they would have caught it easily.

Or they’d have ended up running onto the platform as it was being dispatched causing a safety issue.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet - but a hypothetical situation.

You have made your way across London on the Tube after a day out in the capital - and get to the station to catch the last service of the night to your destination some way outside of London - paid for by a nice reasonably costing Advance Ticket for that service.

Just before you hit the top of the escalators from the Tube - the 3 minute window shuts - and the service is removed from the screens before you are within sight of the display to see that happen.

You spend precious seconds searching the displays for your service - which of course is no longer showing - so you think it has been cancelled.

A short while later you see a member of staff and you enquire “hope you can help - I need to get back to X - but the last train of the night there has been cancelled - it wasn’t on the screens”

The staff member then informs you that it wasn’t cancelled - but left on time - and “sorry guv - you’re on your own now”.

Where does that leave the passenger then?

They cannot invoke the cancellation of last train rights (taxi or hotel paid for by the TOC) as the service wasn’t cancelled.

I’d imagine that the hypothetical passenger would be in the same position as anyone else who misses a train due to mistiming their journey and arriving too late at the departure station.

Once again, if you’re intending to take the last train/travel a long way, it’s prudent to leave plenty of time, rather than arriving at the top of the tube escalators less than three minutes before the train departs.

 

[The Planner]

Surely if 3 minutes is deemed to be the required cutoff time, the solution is to move the advertised departure time 3 mins before the actual planned departure time, not fudge things so that trains disappear from the boards early?

Thats fine as long as people complaining their train leaves 3 minutes late 100% of the time are just ignored.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Once again, if you’re intending to take the last train/travel a long way, it’s prudent to leave plenty of time, rather than arriving at the top of the tube escalators less than three minutes before the train departs.

Sure, it's prudent to leave plenty of time. I don't think anyone would disagree there. But that doesn't change that if you have arrived at the station with sufficient time to catch your train (even if 'sufficient time' means you can just about jump on the train with 15 seconds to spare) then you have reached the station in time, and the railway should not be deliberately putting barriers in your way to prevent you from boarding the train. Deliberately not displaying which platform the train will depart from is an example of such a a barrier.

 

[KNN]

Was a genuine question as I don’t know the answer - and you give a self righteous vague answer like that?

I hope you don’t work in any kind of customer facing role…

Anyway - I’m out on this discussion as it seems to have gone straight to the default position of the customer being seen as an inconvenience

The person will be deemed to have not left enough time to make their connection and would be on their own.

The tone of most of this thread is that something normal and reasonable is an outrage, it isn't.

It's 2 minutes at New Street which gives you about a minute to get your train, 3 minutes at Euston gives you about a minute to get your train. 99% of the time you'd miss the train if you'd only discovered the platform at the moment it disappears.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sure, it's prudent to leave plenty of time. I don't think anyone would disagree there. But that doesn't change that if you have arrived at the station with sufficient time to catch your train (even if 'sufficient time' means you can just about jump on the train with 15 seconds to spare) then you have reached the station in time, and the railway should not be deliberately putting barriers in your way to prevent you from boarding the train. Deliberately not displaying which platform the train will depart from is an example of such a a barrier.

Speaking of barriers. Certain ticket types such as Carnets are automatically rejected from barriers. There is a lot of conflict when passengers miss a train because they can’t access the platform. (As they can nearly touch the train). The removal of the train could remove some of this conflict. (I say could as commuters tend to use Carnets and know which platform to use anyway)

One thing I am finding concerning is the platforms are not shown on great northerns (and railboards) app today. You can see them on real train times. That doesn’t seem a positive step.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyway - I’m out on this discussion as it seems to have gone straight to the default position of the customer being seen as an inconvenience

It's the default position on these forums, I'm afraid, and a reflection of the post-Covid attitude of the railway itself.

Of course, anyone who deliberately cuts it so fine is just asking for trouble, but what about those who through no fault of their own are late because of a delay on their connecting journey? But then I suppose that's where the railway blame culture kicks in. "Not LNER/GC/HT/Lumo's problem."

 

[357]

A question for those people saying the published departure time should be 3 minutes earlier.

If the working time is three minutes later - wouldn't the other crew talking about late trains be complaining?

Because people would be at the station after the published departure time who could possibly make the train.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I’m not saying that things don’t go wrong sometimes - as I say I’m sure we have all missed trains at some point, I certainly have. But if you plan ahead it’ll be a very rare occurrence.

My delay repay accounts beg to differ, unless I'm a Jonah, in which case I'll accept bids from ToCs not to travel with them

I travel by train at least every other week, and while I do allow plenty of time normally, sometimes stuff does go wrong - I was at a conference at Liverpool Hope Uni a few weeks ago, and I'd allowed 2 hours to get from the conference back to Lime Street. The "15 minute frequency" bus didn't turn up for an hour, my first Uber got within 200 feet and cancelled, my second took 40 minutes to get to me (and still no buses went by!) and I ended up there almost an hour past the two I'd allowed. How much time do we need to accept is reasonable for people to leave.

On this occasion, I had Anytime tickets, so no problem there, although I did miss my last train home due to a delayed Euston-Glasgow service...

Not for all: there are a reasonable number of people who travel Scotland-London on a regular basis.

Myself included, although on the WCML doing regular Carlisle-Euston jaunts.

 

[jfollows]

A question for those people saying the published departure time should be 3 minutes earlier.

If the working time is three minutes later - wouldn't the other crew talking about late trains be complaining?

Because people would be at the station after the published departure time who could possibly make the train.

The working timetable time is irrelevant here, trains depart at advertised times where possible. Trains are often advertised to leave earlier than the working timetable times, which gives them additional recovery time when they’re able to leave at the advertised times. Trains don’t wait until a later working timetable time. The working timetable is a different sort of fiction to the public timetable, but it underpins the timetable by showing the art of the possible.

 

[357]

The working timetable time is irrelevant here, trains depart at advertised times where possible. Trains are often advertised to leave earlier than the working timetable times, which gives them additional recovery time when they’re able to leave at the advertised times. Trains don’t wait until a later working timetable time. The working timetable is a different sort of fiction to the public timetable, but it underpins the timetable by showing the art of the possible.

I've always worked to the WTT times and my book on/off times have always been taken from the WTT times.

 

[jfollows]

Working timetables used to say

Trains must leave at the advertised times whenever practicable, but when booked to set down only, may depart as soon as Station Duties have been completed. Where the advertised departure times of passenger trains are slightly earlier than those shown in the Working Time Table, the former must be used in all quotations to the public.

 

[Deepgreen]

Late to the debate, but this just smacks of the ever-increasing pressure on passengers who have cut things fine through no fault of their own - information disappearing, train doors closing 90 seconds (for now - who knows if it will increase further?) before scheduled departure time, etc. All steps on the route to airline-style control which negates the freedom of the 'walk-up' regime of UK rail travel. Here's a radical thought - make the passenger information clear, well-planned and uncluttered without the extraneous rubbish that distracts from it these days, so that people can see it quickly and easily.

At a station local to me, Dorking Deepdene, the reverse applies - the train information remains on the screens well after the train has departed!

 

[TUC]

The reality for a station such as Kings Cross is that the platforms are close enough that it is possible, without running, to get from the concourse to the platforms within two minutes.

 

[357]

The reality for a station such as Kings Cross is that the platforms are close enough that it is possible, without running, to get from the concourse to the platforms within two minutes.

Not when it's busy.
Also consider where people might be seated, potentially in a far unit of a train without a gangway or with luggage that won't fit through a gangway.

 

[35B]

Not when it's busy.
Also consider where people might be seated, potentially in a far unit of a train without a gangway or with luggage that won't fit through a gangway.

Precisely.

Someone made a comparison to practice elsewhere. A key point in such a comparison is the expectation of on-time running.

We can argue till the cows come home about whether taking a train off the board is or isn't a good idea, but the extension of that argument (as seen by some on here) to suggest that it is inappropriate to work towards the train leaving on time, as advertised, rather than fudging because some people will be cutting it fine (for whatever reason - and I've certainly had to hurry thanks to the woes of the Piccadilly before now) confuses the general interest with that of a far smaller number of individuals.

 

[lookapigeon]

Out in the sticks in Swansea I’ve seen a sign saying that train doors close 40 seconds before departure and a recent addition that access to the platforms will be stopped another minute (I think) before that. Certainly annoying to be so the ticket barriers 2 minutes before departure and watch the train sit for two minutes before leaving when you could have easily got on…

All just shows how unfriendly the system can be for a casual or infrequent rail traveller. I can understand if say your train is scheduled to be at 12:00 the doors being shut at 12:00:40 and the train leaving at 12:00:58 but where on the ticket is it written that you can't board your departing train 3 minutes before it leaves?!

Mind you, sometimes the lack of information contributes to a poor user experience. The station cafe in Woking has had a refurb (since I last used it several years ago).
If you're sat inside, there is no visibilty of any of the departure boards from the inside as they face away from the doors (I'm sure they were double sided before they got rid of the orange LED boards), nor can you hear the tannoy from the outside, there's no clocks or train departure boards either in the cafe. I was admittedly engrossed in a good book at the time and lost track of time a little, and missed my train.

Not everyone is glued permanently to their phone, and it seems whoever oversaw this refurb missed this point entirely.
Train information should be available to all users of the service, without the reliance or need to have any devices. I would have expected a departure screen to be placed inside it, maybe even a small low level tannoy inside to relay the annoucements from the platform.

 

[12LDA28C]

All just shows how unfriendly the system can be for a casual or infrequent rail traveller. I can understand if say your train is scheduled to be at 12:00 the doors being shut at 12:00:40 and the train leaving at 12:00:58 but where on the ticket is it written that you can't board your departing train 3 minutes before it leaves?!

You may ‘understand’ that, but that’s not how a timetable works. If your train is scheduled to be at 12:00 then that’s what time it should leave, with wheels turning precisely on the minute, not almost a minute later. Doors would normally close at 11:59:30 and the train starts to move at 12:00:00. If it leaves as you describe at 12:00:58 then it’s already a minute late.

 

[chris53]

I'm not an enthusiast though I do like trains and I do travel by train a great deal. I find some of the answers on here smug and patronising and yet again the passenger is clearly an incovenience. I tend to arrive ridiculously early for everything and still sometimes miss a train due to circumstances beyond my control. As regards apps, most ordainary commuters I know only use National Rail Enquiries and aren't even aware of any others and do very much rely on information on screens

 

[Dr Hoo]

All just shows how unfriendly the system can be for a casual or infrequent rail traveller. I can understand if say your train is scheduled to be at 12:00 the doors being shut at 12:00:40 and the train leaving at 12:00:58 but where on the ticket is it written that you can't board your departing train 3 minutes before it leaves?!

The point is that you can. At King's Cross if you have plausibly been near 'Platform 9 3/4', perhaps having walked down from Granary Square or walked across the road from St Pancras, at T-3 minutes and 10 seconds you will have been able to see 'your' train on the left-hand column of the main board in front of you. You would then walk across the (possibly crowded) concourse to the barriers; possibly had to queue for a short while as people ahead of you struggle to scan tickets; got through the barrier; walked across the area behind the buffer stops (possibly having contend with an arrival tipping out 500 people crossing your path); arrived at (say) Platform 3; walked along the platform (possibly to the front 5-car unit); got to 'your' train at T-1 minute; pressed the door open button; waited for the door to open; and got on board with your luggage at T-45 seconds just as the whistle is blown and the actual despatch process commences.

Now, if you can imagine the foregoing, try re-imagining it but getting to the origin point at T-2 minutes and 30 seconds. See the problem?

 

[43066]

Thats fine as long as long as people complaining their train leaves 3 minutes late 100% of the time are just ignored.

Indeed. It’s also notable that each train I work has hundreds of people on it who’ve all managed to board in plenty of time.

The problem, as ever, is that people will invariably want the train to be on time when they’re on it, but also want it to wait for them on the occasions they’re late for it. So the railway, once again, can’t do anything right.

Of course, anyone who deliberately cuts it so fine is just asking for trouble, but what about those who through no fault of their own are late because of a delay on their connecting journey? But then I suppose that's where the railway blame culture kicks in. "Not LNER/GC/HT/Lumo's problem."

If you’re delayed on a connecting railway journey delay repay kicks in and/or there should he access to taxi/hotels if you end up stranded due to missing the last train.

It isn’t actually a question of seeing the customer “as an inconvenience”, “blame culture” or any of the other tropes that often get trotted out on threads like this. It’s a matter of trying to operate the railway safely and punctually for the vast majority of people who manage to arrive in sufficient time.

Precisely.

Someone made a comparison to practice elsewhere. A key point in such a comparison is the expectation of on-time running.

We can argue till the cows come home about whether taking a train off the board is or isn't a good idea, but the extension of that argument (as seen by some on here) to suggest that it is inappropriate to work towards the train leaving on time, as advertised, rather than fudging because some people will be cutting it fine (for whatever reason - and I've certainly had to hurry thanks to the woes of the Piccadilly before now) confuses the general interest with that of a far smaller number of individuals.

Very well put - especially the last sentence, which distills the issue perfectly.

 

[BeijingDave]

So Brits are ill behaved, risk-taking incompetents and Switzerland has none?

People in Britain on the whole behave worse than people in Switzerland.

I have no problem saying this (although I wouldn't be as hyperbolic as your statement).

 

[arb]

The point is that you can. At King's Cross if you have plausibly been near 'Platform 9 3/4', perhaps having walked down from Granary Square or walked across the road from St Pancras, at T-3 minutes and 10 seconds you will have been able to see 'your' train on the left-hand column of the main board in front of you. You would then walk across the (possibly crowded) concourse to the barriers; possibly had to queue for a short while as people ahead of you struggle to scan tickets; got through the barrier; walked across the area behind the buffer stops (possibly having contend with an arrival tipping out 500 people crossing your path); arrived at (say) Platform 3; walked along the platform (possibly to the front 5-car unit); got to 'your' train at T-1 minute; pressed the door open button; waited for the door to open; and got on board with your luggage at T-45 seconds just as the whistle is blown and the actual despatch process commences.

Now, if you can imagine the foregoing, try re-imagining it but getting to the origin point at T-2 minutes and 30 seconds. See the problem?

On the other hand, try imagining that you've walked into King's Cross at the entrance you've suggested, at the T-2 minutes 30 seconds that you've suggested, but this time imagine your train is a nice short 4-car service leaving from platform 10. That's right next to where you've walked in, right next to where you can easily see the left-hand screen, and is easily reachable in the time available. But your train is no longer shown on the departure boards. See the problem?

As I said in post 95, what it needs is somebody applying common-sense as to when to remove individual trains from the departure boards based on the varying circumstances at the time. Not a blanket rule that is applied to every departure without any thought.

 

[Haywain]

try imagining that you've walked into King's Cross at the entrance you've suggested, at the T-2 minutes 30 seconds that you've suggested, but this time imagine your train is a nice short 4-car service leaving from platform 10. T

That won't be a long distance train, so the change under discussion won't apply.

 

[Failed Unit]

That won't be a long distance train, so the change under discussion won't apply.

It applies to all services including the Great Northern ones.Thursday they were also getting removed from the departure board 3 minutes before (or in the case of the 1227 London Kings Cross - Cambridge at least 7 minutes before because it was actually late leaving)