News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[43066]

It applies to all services including the Great Northern ones.Thursday they were also getting removed from the departure board 3 minutes before (or in the case of the 1227 London Kings Cross - Cambridge at least 7 minutes before because it was actually late leaving)

I’m surprised at that, I’ll admit.

 

[Ghostbus]

It’s a matter of trying to operate the railway safely and punctually for the vast majority of people who manage to arrive in sufficient time.

Maybe the railway should study its customers more closely then?

What do they think a person who arrived with plenty of time to spare, enough time that it would be absurd to head straight for the platform and board the train, does with their time?

If they're normal, they wander off to use the facilities. Or they stand there, head down in their phone. In either case, they're obsessively checking the time on their phone, while only occasionally looking back at the board to ensure the train hasn't been moved or even cancelled.

What happens when they look up with three minutes to spare and their train is gone?

I believe they're going to think something abnormal has happened, and waste precious seconds figuring out what that is, and miss their train. Or worse, they panic and run for the half remembered platform number, looking all around for signs their trains isn't at a different hastily rearranged platform.

 

[Haywain]

It applies to all services including the Great Northern ones.

OK but that's not obvious from the article quoted.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On the other hand, try imagining that you've walked into King's Cross at the entrance you've suggested, at the T-2 minutes 30 seconds that you've suggested, but this time imagine your train is a nice short 4-car service leaving from platform 10. That's right next to where you've walked in, right next to where you can easily see the left-hand screen, and is easily reachable in the time available. But your train is no longer shown on the departure boards. See the problem?

Yes, I think this is the point. Clearly there is no single ideal time to remove trains from the departure boards: Take the information off too early and people who wanted to and could've got the train will end up getting confused and missing it. Leave the information on too late, and it clutters up the board and possibly causes some people to dash for the train when they have no chance of getting it. But realistically, the first problem is far, far more serious than the 2nd problem, so on balance it's much better to leave the information up too long rather than take it down too soon. Plus the issue that the railway should not be withholding this kind of information from passengers.

To my mind, the only acceptable time to remove information about a train from the departure boards is the point where the train is actually leaving. To remove the information any earlier is to deprive paying passengers of information that they might need. People differ hugely in how quickly they can get to a platform, and therefore, if the train is due to leave in a minute or so, it's up to each individual to decide for himself/herself whether she/he can reasonably get to the train on time: That's not a decision the railway should be making for anyone.

Having said that, I also don't think trains should be held up for latecomers. I therefore see no problem with the guard locking the doors if (a) the clock has reached the scheduled departure time, AND (b) the train is ready to leave (assuming there isn't some other issue like a late connecting service that the train ought to wait for - but that's never going to be the case at Kings Cross). If the railway has done everything it reasonably can to enable people to reach the train on time (including displaying the departure platform right up to the point of departure), and some people are still late, THEN those people have no right to complain about not being able to get their train.

 

[Richardr]

Surely if 3 minutes is deemed to be the required cutoff time, the solution is to move the advertised departure time 3 mins before the actual planned departure time, not fudge things so that trains disappear from the boards early?

[in addition to the comments made by others on this]

If they did that would many people not get to realize what happens, and the same would happen as today, just 3 minutes later?

 

[jon0844]

I’m surprised at that, I’ll admit.

Doesn't NR control all the displays at King's Cross? Chances are they can't or won't change the settings for different TOCs and just have a setting to do every train. Perhaps they need to look at this, and I'd also suggest keeping the information on the platforms until 1 minute before for suburban trains and 2 minutes for Intercity trains. In fact, you could argue that you keep the info on until departure but have a message saying 'Boarding closed' or something - so at least people know what train it was/is.

Years ago, FCC (I think, it wasn't Wagn I'm sure) trialled closing platforms two minutes before departure for their services and it didn't go well. Now it's basically a warning 1 minute before and an aim to CD at 30 seconds before.

I can understand Intercity trains needing a longer cut-off time as even if you're at the station, it can be a long walk to get through a gateline, walk to the right platform and then almost certainly walk along the platform to the right coach (it's not easy or practical to board at the first door and walk through the train).

 

[AM9]

To my mind, the only acceptable time to remove information about a train from the departure boards is the point where the train is actually leaving.

I think that rather that removing the information when the train is actually leaving, it should be when the guard/driver is required to start the door closure sequence, so will include interlock and any platform checks that the crew make before actually moving the train. Would-be passenger interaction with the train after that moment would likely be a precursor to a late departure.

 

[Ghostbus]

it should be when the guard/driver is required to start the door closure sequence, so will include interlock and any platform checks that the crew make before actually moving the train.

Exactly. You can walk pretty far in 60 seconds. Say from a concourse to the rear door of a train just about to depart.

It's not ideal, but if you've got a seat reservation, a little wheelie case (dinosaur ears optional) and it's off peak, it's no drama.

 

[357]

I therefore see no problem with the guard locking the doors if (a) the clock has reached the scheduled departure time,

The problem here is people running and blocking doors, or the ones who know the train won't move if they are standing on the platform touching / leaning on the side.

Exactly. You can walk pretty far in 60 seconds. Say from a concourse to the rear door of a train just about to depart.

What about to your reserved seat in coach A of a double 5 car?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think that rather that removing the information when the train is actually leaving, it should be when the guard/driver is required to start the door closure sequence, so will include interlock and any platform checks that the crew make before actually moving the train. Would-be passenger interaction with the train after that moment would likely be a precursor to a late departure.

Yes that makes sense. Door closure etc. is the point where - for all practical purposes as far as the passenger is concerned - the train may as well be leaving because you aren't getting on it, so there's no point displaying the train after that. The only proviso is that door closure should be happening no more than a few seconds before the departure time - not (as often seems to happen at various locations, including even smaller stations) a minute or so beforehand. But that's an argument for another thread, not this thread.

The problem here is people running and blocking doors, or the ones who know the train won't move if they are standing on the platform touching / leaning on the side.

And in my view, the solution to that ought to be: If you're deliberately blocking the doors/leaning on the train in order to stop it departing, then you are definitely not going to be allowed on the train, and if you persist after platform staff have asked you to stand back, then it's time to call the police. Once people start to understand that that is what will happen, I imagine instances of people blocking the train will quickly fall to virtually zero. But yes, I understand, that requires more resources to be put in initially, which requires much more political will.

 

[jon0844]

if you persist after platform staff have asked you to stand back, then it's time to call the police. Once people start to understand that that is what will happen, I imagine instances of people blocking the train will quickly fall to virtually zero.

Or 'compo face' photos are going to become a thing in the Daily Mail for months to come.

 

[Hadlow Road]

The problem here is people running and blocking doors, or the ones who know the train won't move if they are standing on the platform touching / leaning on the side.


What about to your reserved seat in coach A of a double 5 car?

Welcome to EUS for WRX and the ten minute scrum - when I have been there for half an hour so as to enjoy a glass of London Pride.

 

[12LDA28C]

I therefore see no problem with the guard locking the doors if (a) the clock has reached the scheduled departure time, AND (b) the train is ready to leave (assuming there isn't some other issue like a late connecting service that the train ought to wait for - but that's never going to be the case at Kings Cross). If the railway has done everything it reasonably can to enable people to reach the train on time (including displaying the departure platform right up to the point of departure), and some people are still late, THEN those people have no right to complain about not being able to get their train.

But as I pointed out slightly upthread, that is not how the timetable works. The guard (or driver if it’s DOO) should not wait until departure time has been reached before ‘locking the doors’. As for your point (b), a train is clearly not ready to leave if the doors are still armed.
Wheels turning exactly on the minute of advertised departure is punctual, anything else, such as the scenario you describe, guarantees a late departure.

 

[yorkie]

Wheels turning exactly on the minute of advertised departure is punctual, anything else, such as the scenario you describe, guarantees a late departure.

Ah, so the Swiss are doing it all wrong, then? If you say so

We could do departure times just as well as the Swiss do; all we need to do is have a slight differential between the public timetable and the working timetable, which is nothing new as it already exists in many instances.

This obsession we seem to have in the UK with denying people entry to trains before the advertised time really isn't a healthy one.

The idea that a particular behavioural problem can be solved by hiding information from passengers is deeply flawed.

The people who come up with anti-passenger policies should be forced to see how railways are run by those who really know how to run a railway.

 

[stevieinselby]

If your connection is late you don't have to pay anything to use the next train. Perhaps that needs making clearer in itself!

As long as it's a connection from a National Rail service. If I'm getting a bus or tube to Kings Cross, I would count that as a "connection", but I don't think I would be allowed to board a later train without penalty because of delays on the Underground. In the case of Kings Cross, that will likely account for a lot more passengers than arriving by NR.

There's also the point that a lot of IC trains out of Kings Cross are infrequent. If I miss my train to Hull or Lincoln or Bradford or Aberdeen, it may be of less interest to me to know that my ticket is valid on the next service, as the fact that the next service might not be for another 2 hours or more.

I was glad when Manchester Airport stopped displaying trains on the board until it actually departed, you used to be trying to dispatch and getting swamped by people running up because they'd seen the "next train to Piccadilly" board - there's another one in five minutes! Three minutes is excessive however.

There's clearly a big difference between local trains running every few minutes and long distance trains that for many destinations may be hourly at best.

People with mobility issues and people with young children may well need significantly longer time to reach trains from concourses. This should be factored in when deciding when to delete departures from the concourse information screens.

Irrelevant. Anyone like that who is going to struggle to walk at a "normal" pace is probably not going to make it to the train before departure time if they're still on the concourse with less than 3 minutes to go, so it makes no odds to them whether the train is still shown on the board or not. What would help those people is having departures shown on the board earlier, but that would lead to people trying to board the train while the crew are still cleaning and preparing it for the next journey.

In fairness, it's often longer than 10 minutes; it depends on the departures. Sometimes they want Stevenage and Peterborough passengers to not catch the Leeds train if it's busy. The Leeds train platform is always called after Edinburgh one if they both stop at Doncaster. We could do with an audible signal when the boards change though, similar to the old split-flap displays, instead of milling around staring at the screens. But I've turned up 20 minutes early for my train, and the platform has been called.

I've long thought that major stations should play the audio of the old Solari boards clacking over when there's an update to the departure boards

This could be dealt with by adopting (and publicising) a policy of “platforms close (say) two minutes prior to departure”. You might make it but, if you chance your arm, you’ve left less than the minimum advertised time.

It’s clear that LNER think if you’re leaving less than three minutes, then that is insufficient. That seems perfectly reasonable to me for long distance services.

The difficulty with that is making the situation clear to passengers. At most stations, it is neither necessary nor practical to close the platforms prior to departure, when trains might only have a minute or less from arrival to departure and there are trains coming through at frequent intervals. So the policy needs to distinguish between terminus stations (and does it apply only to intercity trains? At Manchester Piccadilly, would you have the same rules for Northern locals as for Avanti?) and everywhere else. It wouldn't be a TOC-dependent policy, because it wouldn't work for LNER at other stations on the route except maybe Edinburgh.

 

[WAB]

Given the majority of long-distance passengers will be booking via Trainline or LNER and will therefore be notified of their platform and much of the rest will check their platform in advance, I'm not sure just how much of an impact this is going to have on running? The minimal safety benefits are firmly outweighed by the disadvantage to customers in my view.

In any case, much of the running seems to be when trains are called - rather damning for the railway's running of the service, really.

A more reasonable timeline would be:

T-240 - last call over PA
T-120 - removed from departure screens
T-60 - removed from platform screens/platform gate closed
T-40 - whistling up
T-30 - start dispatch process

 

[12LDA28C]

Ah, so the Swiss are doing it all wrong, then? If you say so

We could do departure times just as well as the Swiss do; all we need to do is have a slight differential between the public timetable and the working timetable, which is nothing new as it already exists in many instances.

This obsession we seem to have in the UK with denying people entry to trains before the advertised time really isn't a healthy one.

The idea that a particular behavioural problem can be solved by hiding information from passengers is deeply flawed.

The people who come up with anti-passenger policies should be forced to see how railways are run by those who really know how to run a railway.

Where did I say we should deny entry to passengers before the advertised departure time? I’m saying quite clearly that the train leaves at precisely departure time and no later, and passengers should be fully aware of this. This should mean that the doors will need to be closed around 30 seconds or so before that time and indeed that is exactly what is advertised at many locations.

I have no issue with trains being advertised up to that point at which dispatch begins as long as passengers know that if they rock up at the train once that process has started, they’re not getting on. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I have no issue with trains being advertised up to that point at which dispatch begins as long as passengers know that if they rock up at the train once that process has started, they’re not getting on. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I would totally agree with you there. You advertise the train right up to the point of dispatch (including on the main departure boards) with the understanding that it's each passenger's responsibility to make sure they get to the train before that time. Where I would disagree is that I think it's wrong that the time of dispatch is before the advertised departure time. It's not realistic to expect passengers to know how long it takes to dispatch a train at each location and mentally subtract that from the departure time - because that time seems to vary hugely between stations, types of train, etc. Therefore the only reasonable passenger-friendly thing to do is to arrange things so that the dispatch time starts at the advertised departure time. And if it's a station where dispatch takes more than a few seconds, the non-public working timetable should take that into account by allowing for a slightly later departure time. There's no reason that shouldn't be possible and if I've understood @yorkie correctly, that is done in at least one other country.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is anyone getting platform information from any of the various apps? Railboard isn’t displaying it, neither is Great Northerns. If they have blocked the feed to the apps to be honest that is a bigger story. Yes you can use sites such as open train times. (if you know the trains headcode) However lots of people use the apps ahead of heading to the station.Right now for example the 0920 Kings Cross - York is platformless the apps, as is the 0928 London - Peterborough. Both trains on the platform.

 

[PeterC]

My own view is that, to a large degree, it depends on the station layout. Three minutes seems a lot but I haven't caught a train at King's Cross since the rebuild.

I don't see an issue with taking a departure off a board that is out of sight of the platforms a little early but:

1. It must be based on the departure time that the train will physically achieve not the timetable.

2. Screens at platform level must show the service until the doors close.

 

[43066]

I would totally agree with you there. You advertise the train right up to the point of dispatch (including on the main departure boards) with the understanding that it's each passenger's responsibility to make sure they get to the train before that time. Where I would disagree is that I think it's wrong that the time of dispatch is before the advertised departure time. It's not realistic to expect passengers to know how long it takes to dispatch a train at each location and mentally subtract that from the departure time - because that time seems to vary hugely between stations, types of train, etc. Therefore the only reasonable passenger-friendly thing to do is to arrange things so that the dispatch time starts at the advertised departure time. And if it's a station where dispatch takes more than a few seconds, the non-public working timetable should take that into account by allowing for a slightly later departure time. There's no reason that shouldn't be possible and if I've understood @yorkie correctly, that is done in at least one other country.

That approach is arguably more dishonest, though, as you’re effectively telling the passengers that trains depart earlier than they really do. As a passenger who always ensures I board a train several minutes before departure (as most do at terminal stations), with no knowledge of the “working timetable”, I’d be a lot more irritated by the train consistently leaving later than advertised (ie “late” according to the public timetable) then I would be by it departing promptly at the advertised time, even if that means leaving some latecomers behind.

A “departure time” doesn’t mean the “latest time you can still board the mode of transport” in any other area of transport, as far as I’m aware, and it isn’t a concept most people are unfamiliar with or confused by, in my experience.

 

[sh24]

A “departure time” doesn’t mean the “latest time you can still board the mode of transport” in any other area of transport, as far as I’m aware, and it isn’t a concept most people are unfamiliar with or confused by, in my experience.

I would disagree. Bus transport is the closest to rail, and there departure time = latest boarding time. I've not travelled on a coach in about 3 decades so no idea how they work now! I would also suggest that for the vast majority of passengers their working assumption is that the time the train departs is the time they need to be on board by. Not a notional, unadvertised on journey planners or tickets, 3 mins before target.

 

[43066]

I would disagree. Bus transport is the closest to rail, and there departure time = latest boarding time. I've not travelled on a coach in about 3 decades so no idea how they work now! I would also suggest that for the vast majority of passengers their working assumption is that the time the train departs is the time they need to be on board by. Not a notional, unadvertised on journey planners or tickets, 3 mins before target.

Whenever I catch a bus I know to ensure I’m at the stop before the departure time! In reality that means two or three minutes before to allow for delays crossing roads etc. If I leave it later and miss the bus, it wouldn’t occur to me to blame the driver or bus operator for keeping to time.

I also don’t think buses are “close” to LNER departures - airlines or perhaps National Express coaches are better comparisons. Airlines generally expect you to be there an hour or more beforehand (and this seems to vary by airport/airline), as already discussed, and from the National Express website (excuse the messy link):

https://faq.nationalexpress.com/s/article/How-long-before-departure-should-I-arrive-at-the-pick-up-point-1581438954892#:~:text=You%20must%20be%20at%20the,staff%20if%20you%20need%20support.

You must be at the departure point at least 10 minutes prior to the coach departure time.

So not an unfamiliar concept when considering comparable modes of travel, with airlines and coaches both giving less flexibility than the railway!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Whenever I catch a bus I know to ensure I’m at the stop before the departure time!

Sure. I imagine most people would too - at least by a minute or so, in order to be safe. But if you get there even slightly before the departure time, I (and I'm sure most people) would still expect to be let on the bus, and would regard it as wrong if either the bus had already left, or the bus was sitting there but the driver was refusing to let anyone else on.

 

[Tester]

The only departure time relevant to a passenger is the time at which the passenger can no longer board.

The time that the wheels start moving is an internal operating matter.

 

[yorkie]

I would disagree. Bus transport is the closest to rail, and there departure time = latest boarding time. I've not travelled on a coach in about 3 decades so no idea how they work now! I would also suggest that for the vast majority of passengers their working assumption is that the time the train departs is the time they need to be on board by. Not a notional, unadvertised on journey planners or tickets, 3 mins before target.

Absolutely spot on, and is how it works in countries that really know how to run trains and do a much better job than we do.

But it doesn't matter how compelling your argument is, how strong the evidence is, and how much better things are done elsewhere; there is no way that some people within the industry are ever going to change their minds and stop disagreeing with us.

This is a never ending argument where those who support the status quo in this country are going to dig their heels in and never give up.

The only departure time relevant to a passenger is the time at which the passenger can no longer board.

The time that the wheels start moving is an internal operating matter.

Absolutely.

 

[AM9]

That approach is arguably more dishonest, though, as you’re effectively telling the passengers that trains depart earlier than they really do. As a passenger who always ensures I board a train several minutes before departure (as most do at terminal stations), with no knowledge of the “working timetable”, I’d be a lot more irritated by the train consistently leaving later than advertised (ie “late” according to the public timetable) then I would be by it departing promptly at the advertised time, even if that means leaving some latecomers behind.

A “departure time” doesn’t mean the “latest time you can still board the mode of transport” in any other area of transport, as far as I’m aware, and it isn’t a concept most people are unfamiliar with or confused by, in my experience.

Given that much of this thread's discussion is really referring to IC rather than local or metro services, provided the passenger takes the stated departure time seriously, the actual time that a train starts rolling is much less important than it's arrival at the destination station. Those that are poor timekeepers will either continue to randomly miss their trains or realise that the world is not going to adjust itself to accommodate their unreliability.
To pretend that the only important things that happen is the train is there with it's doors open and will depart as soon as they have found their seat is a) naiive
and/or
b) selfish to the extreme.

 

[Ghostbus]

So not an unfamiliar concept when considering comparable modes of travel, with airlines and coaches both giving less flexibility than the railway!

The 10 minute rule for National Express is going to be for luggage loading by the driver. Doesn't exactly apply to the (current!) railway.

 

[43066]

The only departure time relevant to a passenger is the time at which the passenger can no longer board.

The time that the wheels start moving is an internal operating matter.

But, as shown above, that isn’t what departure time means for coaches, or for airlines, so why should it for trains?

We will have to agree to disagree!

The 10 minute rule for National Express is going to be for luggage loading by the driver. Doesn't exactly apply to the (current!) railway.

Indeed. On the railway people load their own luggage and it’s a major cause of delays where they don’t leave sufficient time to do so (not helped by the poor, cramped design of many modern trains, to be fair). I would certainly support train operators giving more robust guidance to passengers travelling with luggage to leave more time.

 

[yorkie]

Given that much of this thread's discussion is really referring to IC rather than local or metro services, provided the passenger takes the stated departure time seriously, the actual time that a train starts rolling is much less important than it's arrival at the destination station. Those that are poor timekeepers will either continue to randomly miss their trains or realise that the world is not going to adjust itself to accommodate their unreliability.
To pretend that the only important things that happen is the train is there with it's doors open and will depart as soon as they have found their seat is a) naiive
and/or
b) selfish to the extreme.

Indeed no-one cares if the wheels start moving shortly after the advertised departure time.

People are much more interested in being able to board the train, making connections, not being mislead, and yes arriving reasonably on time.

I've been on many trains that have started moving before the booked time and yet have crawled along soon after, or even stopped at a red signal, as the route ahead wasn't clear. Some of those trains end up arriving late; any suggestion that getting the wheels moving from the origin a few seconds early somehow makes trains arrive on time is false.

This argument has been done to death, and those who oppose a more sensible way of working will never give up defending anti-passenger practices, so we just go round in circles.