News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

[davews]

Not displaying platforms on the screens at Kings Cross until ten minutes before departure also causes problems when there is a massive rush for the gateline at exactly the time it shows. So you have around 7 minutes to get the platform from the time it it shows on the screen until the time it disappears for ever.. I always thought the system at KX where everybody waits in the main concourse staring at the departure boards rather than a steady trickle through the barriers to the platforms a little strange.

 

[TUC]

In a world where many passengers are using RTT or similar, this seems a rather redundant approach.

 

[markle]

IIRC it's already 1 min at Charing X, 2 mins at Waterloo.

Never occurred to me that it's something to get angry over.

3 mins may be pushing it a bit, but it ultimately depends on how long it might take someone to walk from the boards to the furthest platforms, laden with luggage.

Having seen people giving staff aggro when they run for a train and the doors have already closed, people slipping / falling, people getting items stuck in doors, I can understand why it's deemed necessary. At King's X you tend to have more passenger luggage in the mix too, which causes more trip hazard, extends times to get to the train etc.

 

[jumble]

I'm sure this will create a lively debate.
Apologies if already posted elsewhere, I haven't found anything.

A report in the Guardian this evening says that there is a plan for train details to be deleted from departure boards three minutes before departure at King's Cross.
Quote:


Link:

‘So patronising’: rail bosses spark anger by hiding train departure times

Scheme aimed at stopping platform dashes sees schedules deleted from boards three minutes before departure

www.theguardian.com

This concept is taken to ludicrous extremes at Northwick Park on the Met as well
A northbound train will disappear from the ticket hall board before the train is any where near arriving at the platform despite the fact that the ticket hall is a very short staircase from the platforms

 

[Class15]

This already happens at Victoria (as mentioned upthread).

It doesn’t affect me as I can use Railcam to check which platform my train is going from using the live signalling diagram, but this just seems totally unnecessary and unhelpful to the travelling public.

 

[35B]

Not sure about 3 minutes, but at a major station like Kings Cross, this principle is welcome. The reality is that there’s a final surge of people who present late, and then have to be shooed up the platform or into 1st to walk through because standard class is halfway to Finsbury Park.

We’ve all made late connections, and have the stories about why the train should serve people, not the other way round. What we forget is that there are several hundred other people on the train, and that they have connections to make, sometimes (e.g. Nottingham line at Grantham) not generous ones. Operating by the timetable (and I don’t support separate working and public ones) plays fair by all.

 

[williamn]

Not sure about 3 minutes, but at a major station like Kings Cross, this principle is welcome. The reality is that there’s a final surge of people who present late, and then have to be shooed up the platform or into 1st to walk through because standard class is halfway to Finsbury Park.

We’ve all made late connections, and have the stories about why the train should serve people, not the other way round. What we forget is that there are several hundred other people on the train, and that they have connections to make, sometimes (e.g. Nottingham line at Grantham) not generous ones. Operating by the timetable (and I don’t support separate working and public ones) plays fair by all.

This assumes that last minute passengers are a significant source of train delays. I doubt that’s the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What bit of “departure time” do people struggle with? It is when it departs!

It's an irrelevant time. The relevant time is the last time you can board it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What bit of “departure time” do people struggle with? It is when it departs!

And if I’m there three minutes before that time then it hasn’t departed and I should be told where it is.

The reality is that there’s a final surge of people who present late, and then have to be shooed up the platform or into 1st to walk through

Is there any evidence these people delay trains?

Sounds like more aviation-style nonsense being pushed by LNER.

that they have connections to make, sometimes (e.g. Nottingham line at Grantham) not generous ones

Five minute interchange at some stations, but Network Rail think you shouldn’t be told where your train is at T-3 because it’s “dangerous”.

Make it make sense.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Operating by the timetable (and I don’t support separate working and public ones) plays fair by all.

What do you mean "you don't support separate working and public ones"? There are already separate working and public timetables. The problem here is that LNER (who else) are blurring the lines between the two.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

3 mins may be pushing it a bit, but it ultimately depends on how long it might take someone to walk from the boards to the furthest platforms, laden with luggage.

I would say it depends on how long it would take the fittest person to get from the boards to the nearest point of the platform the train is at. If I have so much luggage or have just had an injury or something that means I can only move slowly, then I'm perfectly capable of realising myself that it's not worth trying to make it to a platform in one minute and I should therefore wait. I've done that plenty of times when it's clear that I'll never get to a platform (or to a bus stop, or be able to walk/run to the station on time). That should be my decision, not the railway's.

 

[norbitonflyer]

What bit of “departure time” do people struggle with? It is when it departs!

Part of the problem is late advertising of platform. If an incoming train arrives less than 5 minutes before it is due to leave, the platform will only be displayed for less than two minutes - regardless of how long it actually remains there. That is easily enough time for it to be missed altogether unless you give the screen your undivided attention.

The platform should in any case be displayed long enough before actual departure for somone to get to it from any part of the station. The zoning at Waterloo - eg wait at platforms 1-6 - helps to reduce this time, but there are some destinations to which trains depart from both extremes, and due to unfortunate planning* are scheduled to do so at very similar times (Shepperton via Kingston at xx42 from platfroms 1-6, via Richmonvd at xx43 from platforms 20-24), similarly roundabouts at xx27 clockwise/xx30 anticlockwise. If you guess wrong which one is actually going to go first, by the time you get to the platform the train has gone, and by the time you get back the other may have gone (or at least dispppeared from the screen) too.

Kings Cross has a similar issue, since many destinations are also served from St Pancras Low Level.

Another issue with premature removal of platform number is people misremembering which platform was displayed by the time they reach the barrier - "was it 9 or 10". Done it myself at Waterloo - noted a train due to leave shortly as I come over the bridge from Waterloo East, make it to the barrier line only to then from force of habit join the train on platform 5 when today it's going from platform 6 (and that despite both trains still being displayed on the platform screens!)

*which incidentally means that although there are 4 trains an hour, at least in the peaks, to destinations on these routes there are 27-29 minute gaps.

 

[SteveM70]

In a world where many passengers are using RTT or similar, this seems a rather redundant approach.

“Many”??

Really?

Maybe many of the enthusiast subset of passengers, but surely not many of the normals, who make up the overwhelming majority of passengers

 

[yorkie]

Maybe many of the enthusiast subset of passengers, but surely not many of the normals, who make up the overwhelming majority of passengers

I'm not sure how you define "enthusiast" or "normal" passengers, but many people do use online sources these days, and the numbers are increasing.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Look, at some point the rail operators need to recognise that sometimes people will arrive late for their train and they will run to make their connection. It’s all well and good to say “well they should get here earlier” but that’s the reality of how people move and exist. Buses get stuck in traffic, tubes get broken, bike tyres get punctured, babies need emergency toilet breaks etc.

It did not go down well with me when one manager told me I should "organise my life better" to make sure i caught my train. Given that I could not deliver my children to school any earlier than when they open the gates, I had little control over the situation and, in any case, reliability on that line meant that train times were little better than random in practice, so whatever time I turned up there might be a train imminent, and no other for half an hour or more.

(the specific issue was crowding at the ticket gates at my local station - woefully inadequte number to cope with the scrum that occurs as passengers trying to catch an up train have to fight their way through the people just arrived on the down train scheduled for just 4 minutes before (lots of incoming morning traffic as the station serves several schools and commercial premises), and SWT/SWR's refusal to re-open the entrance on the up side of the station).

And I know only too well the potential consequences of running for trains, having ended up underneath one once - I was lucky: got away with concussion, ten stitches in my scalp, a sprained shoulder, and a ruined suit.

 

[mpthomson]

In a world where many passengers are using RTT or similar, this seems a rather redundant approach.

As a proportion vanishingly few passengers use RTT, it's really only rail enthusiasts and staff who even know it exists.

 

[jfollows]

What do you mean "you don't support separate working and public ones"? There are already separate working and public timetables. The problem here is that LNER (who else) are blurring the lines between the two.

And, to add, trains should depart according to the public timetable times anyway, the working timetables are an operating fiction which shouldn’t interest or concern the majority of passengers.

Of course, there’s now a third timetable for Euston and, presumably, King’s Cross where trains leave early if they can. That, at least, is also reasonably well advertised.

 

[Ian79]

I'm not sure how you define "enthusiast" or "normal" passengers, but many people do use online sources these days, and the numbers are increasing.

Also, given the relative position of the (quicker) exit from the underground, departure boards and access to the platforms (particularly the commuter platforms) at Kings Cross, I'd expect that anyone running really late will have checked the departure platform using their phone on the way to the station.

Even for the long distance platforms, when time is a bit tight and the concourse is busy, provided you know which platform you need in advance, the quickest way to reach the train can be to go in by the back of the shops, up the escalator to the mezzanine floor where the restaurants are, through the single ticket gate onto the bridge over the platforms and down the escalator onto the relevant platform part way down the train. Even just walking briskly that can be done within a minute from the external entrance to the station.

Three minutes is quite a long time in the context of a regular commute. When I lived in London 25 years ago (and was younger and fitter), I could leave my flat and run the 500 metres from it to Hackbridge Station in less than that time if I was running late - walking it took me 5 minutes. It was usually pointless running though because that was in the days of Connex South Central and the trains were rarely on time, if they arrived at all!!

 

[357]

This assumes that last minute passengers are a significant source of train delays. I doubt that’s the case.

On my traction I can hear the microphone from the guards dispatch panel in the driver's cab.

Almost every time we depart KGX, I'm watching the clock ticking past our departure time while people are running and jumping on the local door.

Our traincrew call the station control room to let them know we are ready for boarding, and this is done a minimum of 10 minutes before departure and normally more like 15 minutes before departure.

 

[43066]

This seems like a sensible strategy to ensure an on time departure. The prudent approach, as always, is to leave sufficient time to not need to rush. The overwhelming majority of passengers manage this, of course.

In a world where many passengers are using RTT or similar, this seems a rather redundant approach.

Relatively few as a proportion are. Otherwise having departure boards at all would be a redundant approach!

This assumes that last minute passengers are a significant source of train delays. I doubt that’s the case.

Years of working trains and experiencing people holding doors (common), deliberately leaning on/touching the train to try and prevent it leaving (rarer, but it happens) suggests otherwise.

Almost every time we depart KGX, I'm watching the clock ticking past our departure time while people are running and jumping on the local door.

The same happens over the road! Often they don’t make it and throw a tantrum, including shouting vile abuse at platform staff, for not delaying hundreds of people. We’ve all missed trains, and it can be frustrating, but taking it out on staff members is simply not a mentality I can understand.

 

[Via Bank]

An obvious and common-sense measure would be to allow those with Advance tickets who've missed their train to have their booking moved to the next train for a small (low double-digits) fee, effectively making all Advance fares similar to the LNER "70 min flex" fares. It wouldn't stop the hardened daily travellers who run because they have the gut reaction of 'oh no, my train's going in 1 minute and if I miss this I'm not going to see my kids before bedtime', but if it was well-advertised it might help longer-distance travellers feel less compelled to rush if, for instance, their connection was late.

I fully expect something like this will not happen because it will remove a revenue stream for the TOCs.

 

[miami]

As a proportion vanishingly few passengers use RTT, it's really only rail enthusiasts and staff who even know it exists.

At Euston dozens of peoples gather at the top of the platform before it's announced on the boards, presumably due to websites like RTT or open traintimes or whatever.

That is easily enough time for it to be missed altogether unless you give the screen your undivided attention.

Thus increasing the value of the boards for adverts. Yeay.

The railway wants you to book months in advance, turn up an hour before hand, be drained of every penny waiting, then board when ordered. I think many would prefer to run an airline.

Meanwhile I turn up at my car and leave in seconds.

 

[weastebusdepot]

As a proportion vanishingly few passengers use RTT, it's really only rail enthusiasts and staff who even know it exists.

The majority of passengers use Trainline and believe that is the definitive source of all information. If it told them the next train was going the moon, any rail staff wouldn't be believed if they said anything to the contrary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An obvious and common-sense measure would be to allow those with Advance tickets who've missed their train to have their booking moved to the next train for a small (low double-digits) fee, effectively making all Advance fares similar to the LNER "70 min flex" fares. It wouldn't stop the hardened daily travellers who run because they have the gut reaction of 'oh no, my train's going in 1 minute and if I miss this I'm not going to see my kids before bedtime', but if it was well-advertised it might help longer-distance travellers feel less compelled to rush if, for instance, their connection was late.

If your connection is late you don't have to pay anything to use the next train. Perhaps that needs making clearer in itself!

 

[KNN]

It's an irrelevant time. The relevant time is the last time you can board it.

This, surely, is the point.

At Euston the gate shuts 2 minutes before departure, and it takes more than a minute to walk from the boards to the gate.

If you are at the boards with less than 3 minutes to spare you've missed your train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This, surely, is the point.

At Euston the gate shuts 2 minutes before departure, and it takes more than a minute to walk from the boards to the gate.

If you are at the boards with less than 3 minutes to spare you've missed your train.

I could see sense in progressive removal - off the main boards at 3 minutes, off the platform boards only when the platform can no longer be accessed (because people will want to confirm before they board).

That isn't totally true, though, it takes no more than 10 seconds to get from being able to see a main board at Euston to the Platform 12 gate. At Kings Cross the walks are longer to be fair.

 

[43066]

The majority of passengers use Trainline and believe that is the definitive source of all information. If it told them the next train was going the moon, any rail staff wouldn't be believed if they said anything to the contrary.

Yes indeed, I’ve also witnessed this. People will completely refuse to believe staff when they’re told that a train has been re-platformed, to the point where staff eventually give up and they simply miss the train.

It’s still a relatively small % of overall passengers numbers, though.

 

[arb]

This doesn't reduce the risk caused by people running. It just moves that risk elsewhere, which seems to be a classic railway "solution" to risk problems nowadays.

Yes, it will reduce the number of very late people who run inside the station.

But the subset of people who are a little bit late, but still know they have enough time to make their train's real departure time, will now be forced to run outside the station to ensure they reach the concourse with more time to spare to read the departure boards. Maybe they'll now play chicken with pedestrian crossing lights and be hit by a bus, instead of falling over a suitcase inside the station. But that will never be blamed on the railway, so it's all fine.

 

[Haywain]

At Kings Cross the walks are longer to be fair.

But not that much longer. The walk for (ramp) barrier to train can be quite a way at Euston compared to Kings Cross.

At Euston dozens of peoples gather at the top of the platform before it's announced on the boards, presumably due to websites like RTT or open traintimes or whatever.

There are many websites and apps that will tel you which platform a train is scheduled to depart from, most of which are not aimed at enthusiasts.

 

[185]

So Brits are ill behaved, risk-taking incompetents and Switzerland has none?

I have not seen any swathes of rampaging wildebeest in the grand hall of Zurich Hauptbahhof or the atriums of Genève-Cornavin... or indeed in any other UK station.

This is not even a British thing, most of the rest of the country's passengers are wonderful. This is just a Euston thing - seems to be worse for trains to the home counties.

I would recommend a substantial labyrinth filled with monsters like in Maze Runner for Euston's ramps.