CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[sd0733]

Can someone get the 17:30 made longer. The less than friendly people in timetabling gave me a 17:00 finish on Fridays

Ran as a 2 today then was swapped for a 5 car at Cardiff on its way north. Promising!

 

[Dai Corner]

Ran as a 2 today then was swapped for a 5 car at Cardiff on its way north. Promising!

I was on it (them) from Bridgend to Newport. Full to Cardiff, with a few choosing to stand, but plenty of room thereafter.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Travelled down to Cardiff in 197121 Monday, and what would have been Standard Plus was very impressive - the seat comfort was on a different level. One toilet was locked out though. Two observations. Many people do not know the area does not carry a surcharge, and looked in and walked out again, so TFW really need to get the stickers off and maybe posters on stations. And the catering offer seems to have really gone downhill - 4 hours from 11 until 3, and no sandwiches available, only crisps, cakes and chocolates. I don’t really think that is good enough, particularly given the huge space given over to the non-existent catering cupboard.

 

[iceolate]

And the catering offer seems to have really gone downhill - 4 hours from 11 until 3, and no sandwiches available, only crisps, cakes and chocolates. I don’t really think that is good enough, particularly given the huge space given over to the non-existent catering cupboard.

What was the original vision of these catering cupboards? Are they simply a storage area or were they intended to provide better on board catering facilities e.g. hot food, better coffee? Given the long distance of the routes on which the class 197 operate at seat ordering and better food options would go some way to improve the passenger service and inconsistencies with the Mk4 services.

 

[50002Superb]

Travelled down to Cardiff in 197201 Monday, and what would have been Standard Plus was very impressive - the seat comfort was on a different level. One toilet was locked out though. Two observations. Many people do not know the area does not carry a surcharge, and looked in and walked out again, so TFW really need to get the stickers off and maybe posters on stations. And the catering offer seems to have really gone downhill - 4 hours from 11 until 3, and no sandwiches available, only crisps, cakes and chocolates. I don’t really think that is good enough, particularly given the huge space given over to the non-existent catering cupboard.

197201?

 

[Phil from Mon]

197201?

121 then. I knew there was a 21 in it! Edited

 

[Krokodil]

What was the original vision of these catering cupboards? Are they simply a storage area or were they intended to provide better on board catering facilities e.g. hot food, better coffee?

They have a water tank, and a source of power but I don't believe that there was any intention of providing a microwave or anything to heat up food. Daft idea really, the advantage of a trolley is that they can serve everyone at their seats, the advantage of a buffet is that they can heat up food. Parking a trolley in a cupboard does neither.

 

[Topological]

Travelled down to Cardiff in 197121 Monday, and what would have been Standard Plus was very impressive - the seat comfort was on a different level. One toilet was locked out though. Two observations. Many people do not know the area does not carry a surcharge, and looked in and walked out again, so TFW really need to get the stickers off and maybe posters on stations. And the catering offer seems to have really gone downhill - 4 hours from 11 until 3, and no sandwiches available, only crisps, cakes and chocolates. I don’t really think that is good enough, particularly given the huge space given over to the non-existent catering cupboard.

Isn't this a bonus?

It is like people who won't sit on the Mk4 because the reservation displays make no sense (They still display LNER locations in many cases).

 

[Phil from Mon]

Isn't this a bonus?

It is like people who won't sit on the Mk4 because the reservation displays make no sense (They still display LNER locations in many cases).

Well yes, for those of us in the know. But not for people who may be standing in standard when seats are available.

 

[Topological]

Well yes, for those of us in the know. But not for people who may be standing in standard when seats are available.

The right thing would be to take the seats out and put more standard in.

Indeed TfW should never have put anything other than standard in.

I would like to see the numbers of genuine first class tickets sold (as opposed to cheap advances, or SeatFrog upgrades)

 

[sd0733]

It is like people who won't sit on the Mk4 because the reservation displays make no sense (They still display LNER locations in many cases).

There's only 1 coach in the fleet like that, it wont clear for whatever reason!

The right thing would be to take the seats out and put more standard in.

Indeed TfW should never have put anything other than standard in.

I would like to see the numbers of genuine first class tickets sold (as opposed to cheap advances, or SeatFrog upgrades)

Not only would that mean sets were out of service for an extended period it would cost a lot of money for new seats.
The day downtime to remove the SP branding isn't even considered worthwhile with the way availability of sets is.

Lots of full fare/standard and full upgrades are sold. Lots of passengers who would travel XC via Bristol in 1st now travel on walk up tickets via Hereford in 1st. From feedback They wouldn't even consider it if it means standard in a 197. Some trains have upto 15% of bookings in 1st before upgrades which is decent usage figures.
That's why Standard+ was a determination to get through when it was not possible to get proper 1st, its wanted and warranted on the route by many passengers in feedback.

 

[Topological]

There's only 1 coach in the fleet like that, it wont clear for whatever reason!


Not only would that mean sets were out of service for an extended period it would cost a lot of money for new seats.
The day downtime to remove the SP branding isn't even considered worthwhile with the way availability of sets is.

Lots of full fare/standard and full upgrades are sold. Lots of passengers who would travel XC via Bristol in 1st now travel on walk up tickets via Hereford in 1st. From feedback They wouldn't even consider it if it means standard in a 197. Some trains have upto 15% of bookings in 1st before upgrades which is decent usage figures.

Decent figures, but 22.2% of the length of the seating areas on the train is first on a Mk4 set (counting the buffet carriage as 1/2 a carriage since 1/2 is not seating) so 15% is not the same as the proportion of the train given over to first class. There may be different proportions of walk-up tickets to balance the provision to sales. As you identify, someone walking up in Abergavenny might now decide to use TfW to get North in lieu of going via Newport.

At least it is not as bad as when there were only 21/2 standard class. Now the 5th carriage is in things are not as bad.

(And nothing will ever be as bad as the Virgin 4+4 on the 8-car Pendolinos)

Taking the trains out of service and re-doing the seats would be a bad idea at the moment. It would have just been better if someone had actually thought it out before ordering and installing premium seats that could not be used. Even when the branding was put on there was enough noise around to say it would be a mistake to brand it. The seats used to put people off before the branding was put on as well.

 

[Jez]

The right thing would be to take the seats out and put more standard in.

Indeed TfW should never have put anything other than standard in.

I agree however I think its unlikely they would replace the seats due to the expense involved. Probably will stay the same until the trains are due a refresh which wont be for many years yet At best removing the branding so as not to confuse customers would be helpful. The other week on an almost empty 197 the catering member of staff asked me would i like to move to Standard Plus from Standard as it was empty and there was no extra cost! So it does sound like the staff will encourage people to make use of it especially if the train is quiet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Travelled down to Cardiff in 197121 Monday, and what would have been Standard Plus was very impressive - the seat comfort was on a different level. One toilet was locked out though. Two observations. Many people do not know the area does not carry a surcharge, and looked in and walked out again, so TFW really need to get the stickers off and maybe posters on stations. And the catering offer seems to have really gone downhill - 4 hours from 11 until 3, and no sandwiches available, only crisps, cakes and chocolates. I don’t really think that is good enough, particularly given the huge space given over to the non-existent catering cupboard.

This is why I always take some long life snacks in my bag usually mixed nuts but sometimes crisps. I would feel a failure if I had to resort to the sporadic and expensive snack provision on a train. It is just a waste of seating space.

On a positive note it is good to see the 197 fleet reach critical mass. We seem to have almost enough units to cover. Obviously there may still evolve a maintenance backlog and none are needed on the Cambrian yet BUT with growing reliability (as expected from ALL new fleets) as the fleet settles down those two issues will be short lived or non existent.

 

[sd0733]

Decent figures, but 22.2% of the length of the seating areas on the train is first on a Mk4 set (counting the buffet carriage as 1/2 a carriage since 1/2 is not seating) so 15% is not the same as the proportion of the train given over to first class. There may be different proportions of walk-up tickets to balance the provision to sales. As you identify, someone walking up in Abergavenny might now decide to use TfW to get North in lieu of going via Newport.

At least it is not as bad as when there were only 21/2 standard class. Now the 5th carriage is in things are not as bad.

(And nothing will ever be as bad as the Virgin 4+4 on the 8-car Pendolinos)

Taking the trains out of service and re-doing the seats would be a bad idea at the moment. It would have just been better if someone had actually thought it out before ordering and installing premium seats that could not be used. Even when the branding was put on there was enough noise around to say it would be a mistake to brand it. The seats used to put people off before the branding was put on as well.

It is still a relatively new idea on the route and is steadily growing month on month.
Much of the initial traffic was people on passes and all line rovers giving it a go as an experience but it's now being used quite heavily by business travellers.
First is there to stay in reality and the next fleet of Marches trains, be they refurbished 197s or something different is almost certain to offer a 1st class section across the board.

 

[Anonymous10]

I agree however I think its unlikely they would replace the seats due to the expense involved. Probably will stay the same until the trains are due a refresh which wont be for many years yet At best removing the branding so as not to confuse customers would be helpful. The other week on an almost empty 197 the catering member of staff asked me would i like to move to Standard Plus from Standard as it was empty and there was no extra cost! So it does sound like the staff will encourage people to make use of it especially if the train is quiet.

Maybe just make it a "quiet area", can they do that without the accessible wc?

 

[Krokodil]

The seats used to put people off before the branding was put on as well.

In my experience, most passengers were completely oblivious. Some of them even posted on here, saying that they couldn't tell that they were in a special section of the train. The position seems to have reversed now.

As the sections are too expensive to remove, perhaps they should be rebranded as Quiet Zones. Then they would still serve a purpose (and spare everyone else from the morons mentioned in the thread about phone use).

First is there to stay in reality and the next fleet of Marches trains, be they refurbished 197s or something different is almost certain to offer a 1st class section across the board.

Just as long as it gets done properly next time.

 

[sd0733]

Just as long as it gets done properly next time.

You'd really hope so. Dread to think how much has been spent on First and Standard Plus with nothing to show.

As the sections are too expensive to remove, perhaps they should be rebranded as Quiet zones

That's a pretty good idea. AFAIK there are plans to make the coach between First and the DVT a 'Quieter coach on the Mk4s so it would make things match if that comes to fruition.

 

[Anonymous10]

You'd really hope so. Dread to think how much has been spent on First and Standard Plus with nothing to show.


That's a pretty good idea. AFAIK there are plans to make the coach between First and the DVT a 'Quieter coach on the Mk4s so it would make things match if that comes to fruition.

Yes I would 100% agree, I always book the quiet coach when travelling as I like to watch YouTube (with earplugs) , read or work in peace.

 

[DelW]

Decent figures, but 22.2% of the length of the seating areas on the train is first on a Mk4 set (counting the buffet carriage as 1/2 a carriage since 1/2 is not seating) so 15% is not the same as the proportion of the train given over to first class. There may be different proportions of walk-up tickets to balance the provision to sales. As you identify, someone walking up in Abergavenny might now decide to use TfW to get North in lieu of going via Newport.

Since first class seating is lower density, 15% of bookings (in 1st) will inherently occupy more than 15% of the total space. Plus 15% of bookings in 1st ought to produce substantially more than 15% of revenue.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not only would that mean sets were out of service for an extended period it would cost a lot of money for new seats.
The day downtime to remove the SP branding isn't even considered worthwhile with the way availability of sets is.

Lots of full fare/standard and full upgrades are sold. Lots of passengers who would travel XC via Bristol in 1st now travel on walk up tickets via Hereford in 1st. From feedback They wouldn't even consider it if it means standard in a 197. Some trains have upto 15% of bookings in 1st before upgrades which is decent usage figures.
That's why Standard+ was a determination to get through when it was not possible to get proper 1st, its wanted and warranted on the route by many passengers in feedback.

First class is always well loaded when I have travelled and lots of people order food too. I have done so myself a few times. It is very good.

As regards debranding, why not do them when they are stopped at Chester for an exam? They would all be done within two months.

 

[sd0733]

First class is always well loaded when I have travelled and lots of people order food too. I have done so myself a few times. It is very good.

As regards debranding, why not do them when they are stopped at Chester for an exam? They would all be done within two months.

First is extremely popular and well received. Like you say its a good product.

Eventually that's what is likely to happen. Anytime after unit is stopped for any maintenance they'll be removed, that's how it was fitted.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197036, 197027 and 197022 currently at Crewe depot at the moment.

 

[40029 Saxonia]

197036, 197027 and 197022 currently at Crewe depot at the moment.

According to RTT 197028 worked Bidston line today

 

[Jacob Porrett]

According to RTT 197028 worked Bidston line today

A 197 does work the Bidston line alongside a 230 but that's for another story.

 

[40029 Saxonia]

A 197 does work the Bidston line alongside a 230 but that's for another story.

Yes - two 197s (plus a 230) on the Bidston line but the significance of 197028 is that it is another of the mid Wales route units into service

Yes - two 197s (plus a 230) on the Bidston line but the significance of 197028 is that it is another of the mid Wales route units into service

Apologies, didn't realise 028 had been in service for nearly 2 weeks but I think this was its first use on the Bidston line

 

[Welshguy1048]

Evening

Is this correct...?

Can a 197 be connected to a 158..?

Realtime Trains | 1D44 2307 Manchester Airport to Holyhead | 09/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 1D44 2307 departure from Manchester Airport to Holyhead on 09/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Dave

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Evening

Is this correct...?

Can a 197 be connected to a 158..?

Realtime Trains | 1D44 2307 Manchester Airport to Holyhead | 09/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 1D44 2307 departure from Manchester Airport to Holyhead on 09/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Dave

No, completely impossible.
Data error, will probably be corrected at some point.

 

[Welshguy1048]

No, completely impossible.
Data error, will probably be corrected at some point.

@pokemonsuper9

Thought so.

Thank you

Dave

 

[chrisjo]

Data error, will probably be corrected at some point.

Now showing 197 MIA-CTR and 158 CTR-HHD