Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[tram21]

A staff conference for EMR staff?

Ah interesting, didn't know they had them!

Have they started mainline 10 car testing? Or is it still just at Dalby?

Unfortunately no, just mainline 5 car testing

 

[Killingworth]

Just curious what the EMR conference is?

Sorry, have edited to add 'Stakeholder' Conference to previous post.

 

[Aspen90]

A staff conference for EMR staff?


Have they started mainline 10 car testing? Or is it still just at Dalby?

I’ve not seen any myself, just been told that the 10 car testing is the big problem now. I’d also heard that the pan was drawing too much current and blowing fuses or causing faults which is why I believe they had to be reengineered. It’s borderline depressing now!

 

[Discuss223]

I wonder if it's the wiring, couplers themselves or the computer software that's refraining them from coupling.

It's not an immediate hurry to get them in to service though, especially now the Meridian seats in Standard that were causing complaints have been refurbished.

 

[Archie810]

I’ve not seen any myself, just been told that the 10 car testing is the big problem now. I’d also heard that the pan was drawing too much current and blowing fuses or causing faults which is why I believe they had to be reengineered. It’s borderline depressing now!

are the 810s using different systems to the rest of the 80xs' then?

I wonder if it's the wiring, couplers themselves or the computer software that's refraining them from coupling.

It's not an immediate hurry to get them in to service though, especially now the Meridian seats in Standard that were causing complaints have been refurbished.

whats happened with the 222s?

 

[Discuss223]

whats happened with the 222s?

They've had their flat cloth seats replaced with moquette after the cloth started to rip and become heavily stained.

 

[tram21]

They've had their flat cloth seats replaced with moquette after the cloth started to rip and become heavily stained.

They still have many faults with them, at least the seats are better but they need to be taken out of service as soon as possible preferably.

 

[1D54]

It's not an immediate hurry to get them in to service though, especially now the Meridian seats in Standard that were causing complaints have been refurbished.

This is £400 million worth of new trains we are talking about and MML punters want them in service so putting new covers on seating on the dreadful Meridian fleet is of no compensation whatsoever.

 

[D365]

It's not an immediate hurry to get them in to service though, especially now the Meridian seats in Standard that were causing complaints have been refurbished.

They've had their flat cloth seats replaced with moquette after the cloth started to rip and become heavily stained.

As per the two comments above. Replacement of seat covers is maintenance, not a refurbishment. The Class 222 interiors are becoming increasingly tired.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Problems with running in multiple is the latest… It’ll be next year before they have a passenger on.

Yes I know this is a 24m coach length not a 26m one but its pretty poor that the traction and electronics are proving to have so many issues should have been cut & paste.

 

[D365]

… but its pretty poor that the traction and electronics are proving to have so many issues should have been cut & paste.

Notwithstanding the reduction in carriage length. The technical specification for the EMR units is vastly different, which is owed in large part due to the requirement for sustained 125mph running on diesel.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just curious what the EMR conference is?

If it’s a stakeholder conference as described I’d assume representatives of local councils on the route, user groups, etc.

 

[duffield]

...

It's not an immediate hurry to get them in to service though, especially now the Meridian seats in Standard that were causing complaints have been refurbished.

I'd disagree with that. IMHO by far the most significant issue with the 222s is not the condition of the seat covers (now fixed) or the generally tatty interiors. It's the unacceptable number of toilets out of use, in particular one or both accessible toilets. There's very frequently an extensive list of such services on the EMR website, and it makes travel difficult, stressful and potentially extremely unpleasant and embarrassing for people with certain types of disability. In particular it's pretty critical for wheelchair users in either of the two wheelchair spaces on a 222 to have the adjacent toilet operational. The toilet availability on 222s seems to have deteriorated seriously in recent years and shows no sign of being remedied, with the 810s appearing to offer the only hope of an improvement.

The seat cover condition may well have generated more complaints by number but the lack of an accessible toilet far outweighs them in terms of seriousness.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd disagree with that. IMHO by far the most significant issue with the 222s is not the condition of the seat covers (now fixed) or the generally tatty interiors. It's the unacceptable number of toilets out of use, in particular one or both accessible toilets. There's very frequently an extensive list of such services on the EMR website, and it makes travel difficult, stressful and potentially extremely unpleasant and embarrassing for people with certain types of disability. In particular it's pretty critical for wheelchair users in either of the two wheelchair spaces on a 222 to have the adjacent toilet operational. The toilet availability on 222s seems to have deteriorated seriously in recent years and shows no sign of being remedied, with the 810s appearing to offer the only hope of an improvement.

The seat cover condition may well have generated more complaints by number but the lack of an accessible toilet far outweighs them in terms of seriousness.

Good points ref toilet access and disabilities. Ironic given the HSTs were stood down because of non compliant disability issues.

Clearly not an issue for the pen pushers that the trains tick the compliance box even if the compliant equipment doesn’t actually work …

 

[MCR247]

I'd disagree with that. IMHO by far the most significant issue with the 222s is not the condition of the seat covers (now fixed) or the generally tatty interiors. It's the unacceptable number of toilets out of use, in particular one or both accessible toilets. There's very frequently an extensive list of such services on the EMR website, and it makes travel difficult, stressful and potentially extremely unpleasant and embarrassing for people with certain types of disability. In particular it's pretty critical for wheelchair users in either of the two wheelchair spaces on a 222 to have the adjacent toilet operational. The toilet availability on 222s seems to have deteriorated seriously in recent years and shows no sign of being remedied, with the 810s appearing to offer the only hope of an improvement.

The seat cover condition may well have generated more complaints by number but the lack of an accessible toilet far outweighs them in terms of seriousness.

This is a very good point. Especially when universal toilets not being available will make the accompanying wheelchair space unusable for longer journeys

 

[Richard Scott]

Notwithstanding the reduction in carriage length. The technical specification for the EMR units is vastly different, which is owed in large part due to the requirement for sustained 125mph running on diesel.

Realistically with progress of electrification how much 125mph running will they need to do on diesel? Could it be the design is overspecified before it even enters service?

 

[43066]

Realistically with progress of electrification how much 125mph running will they need to do on diesel? Could it be the design is overspecified before it even enters service?

Virtually none once the existing wiring is upgraded (a stretch on the down just north of Loughborough). A lot of the route is 110mph+ though, with steep gradients and curves, and acceleration on diesel is important.

 

[Discuss223]

Realistically with progress of electrification how much 125mph running will they need to do on diesel? Could it be the design is overspecified before it even enters service?

We don't know what the future will hold for these units.

Dynamics can change drastically.

When their predecessors were introduced, they only ran at 125mph for a short stretch between Doncaster and York, on a limited number of journeys and only at weekends. Now, they run at 125mph on nigh on every journey out of London.

In the past 20 years, the Midland Mainline/East Midlands franchise has gone from operating to places such as Barnsley & Scarborough, to axing those services and introducing services to brand new stations such as Corby and East Midlands Parkway. Things can change.

The Class 810 Auroras may be required to operate at 125mph using their diesel engines at various times during their careers. It's important that they are able to make linespeed for when a service is running late. Good acceleration helps the driver to make up the time lost.

 

[RailWonderer]

Realistically with progress of electrification how much 125mph running will they need to do on diesel? Could it be the design is overspecified before it even enters service?

In case some line speeds get upgraded in years to come it's good to have and if some of these units are cascaded to other operators which need 125mph it will be handy.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And? Hitachi signed the contract to deliver in the agreed timescales. Assuming they are a vaguely competent rolling stock manufacturer* they should have known what was involved.
* given the involvement of the former Ansaldo Breda sites and their lengthy rap sheet of appalling builds, that may be questionable.

We never get to see the small print in those contracts.
As with HS2, capping the annual spend may be part of the plan.
Newton Aycliffe being desperate for orders might have something to do with it, only recently resolved.
What's the link with Ansaldo Breda? The class 802 units built there don't seem to have a worse history than UK/Japan builds of 80x.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Notwithstanding the reduction in carriage length. The technical specification for the EMR units is vastly different, which is owed in large part due to the requirement for sustained 125mph running on diesel.

Thats a slightly higher output engine but the traction inverters , motors and control system are standard 8xx configuration.

 

[name_required]

Two other problems with the 222s that mean I’m always surprised when people on here say there’s nothing wrong with them: the increasing number of interior door buttons that don’t work, and the awful quality of WiFi and mobile signal inside the carriages meaning large parts of the route offer no phone connection at all. As a commuter on the Midland Mainline I’ll be very glad to see the back of them.

 

[hwl]

Thats a slightly higher output engine but the traction inverters , motors and control system are standard 8xx configuration.

By "standard" you meant completely different of course!
Apart from being different motors (fewer (12-->8) and much bigger (226-->375kW)) and on different vehicles just 2nd and 4th (not 3rd). A single big transformer on the middle vehicle and the engines all under the end vehicles (2 each) and a much higher capacity DC power bus...
Standard apart from being to a completely new standard not the old one!

 

[Spartacus]

Yes I know this is a 24m coach length not a 26m one but its pretty poor that the traction and electronics are proving to have so many issues should have been cut & paste.

I don't know in this case, but from experience you tend to get more problems by trying to cut and paste such things when you should be putting new or modified ones in. Losing 2 meters will mean different forces coming into play compared to an 80X unit, and the coupler will have not like it if it's expecting x forces and it's getting.

 

[hwl]

I don't know in this case, but from experience you tend to get more problems by trying to cut and paste such things when you should be putting new or modified ones in. Losing 2 meters will mean different forces coming into play compared to an 80X unit, and the coupler will have not like it if it's expecting x forces and it's getting.

Quite a bit of the shorter vehicles actually comes from short gangways which are exceptionally long on the 26m 800-807.

 

[AM9]

Quite a bit of the shorter vehicles actually comes from short gangways which are exceptionally long on the 26m 800-807.

Does that mean that the distance between the bogie centres is almost the same on the 810s as the 80x classes?

 

[Snow1964]

I don't know in this case, but from experience you tend to get more problems by trying to cut and paste such things when you should be putting new or modified ones in. Losing 2 meters will mean different forces coming into play compared to an 80X unit, and the coupler will have not like it if it's expecting x forces and it's getting.

And if the 26m units were designed well, everything was optimised for space required and weight balance. Anything moved around, or made a new shape to fit is probably less optimised than the original, any any redesign to fit things in means new spec, new testing and certification.

As others have said, it's unclear if all this redesign, reengineering and new testing and certification is more expensive (and many months longer) than extending platforms for 26m units would have been. Especially as doesn't look like any follow on orders for 24m units are in the pipeline.

 

[Spartacus]

And if the 26m units were designed well, everything was optimised for space required and weight balance. Anything moved around, or made a new shape to fit is probably less optimised than the original, any any redesign to fit things in means new spec, new testing and certification.

As others have said, it's unclear if all this redesign, reengineering and new testing and certification is more expensive (and many months longer) than extending platforms for 26m units would have been. Especially as doesn't look like any follow on orders for 24m units are in the pipeline.

I suspect another rebuild of St Pancras would have been significantly more expensive, that's really the limiting thing. Without either really constraining the station throat or maybe losing the cement terminal there's no easy solution to that.

 

[Aspen90]

By "standard" you meant completely different of course!
Apart from being different motors (fewer (12-->8) and much bigger (226-->375kW)) and on different vehicles just 2nd and 4th (not 3rd). A single big transformer on the middle vehicle and the engines all under the end vehicles (2 each) and a much higher capacity DC power bus...
Standard apart from being to a completely new standard not the old one!

Thanks for this - so just to clarify, the two end vehicles will have 2 engines each for a total of 4 for the 5 car unit? The noise will be interesting in those! Having been near them when they’ve gone past they don’t sound anywhere near as smooth as a 222. They sound really rattle and noisy.

 

[Spire Sam]

Thanks for this - so just to clarify, the two end vehicles will have 2 engines each for a total of 4 for the 5 car unit? The noise will be interesting in those! Having been near them when they’ve gone past they don’t sound anywhere near as smooth as a 222. They sound really rattle and noisy.

I believe the two end vehicles have 1 engine each as well as 1 engine each on the 2nd and 4th cars and the middle (3rd) car is the one with the transformer.