Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[GRALISTAIR]

40 bridges! Wowsers. That really caught my eye and partially explains the hefty price tag.

 

[nr758123]

Marsden P2 can also be used for turnbacks. P3 is still awkward

Thanks. Though P2 isn't accessible, so turning back there is presumably a no-no? Is taxiing people who can't use the steps from Slaithwaite or Huddersfield acceptable from that perspective?

There were some weekend closures last summer where trains ran through to Marsden from the west. I'm not sure whether P2 or P3 was used, but they all would have arrived from Manchester to platform 1, which is not accessible.

 

[edwin_m]

40 bridges! Wowsers. That really caught my eye and partially explains the hefty price tag.

It was "up to". They've probably just counted all the bridges on that section to make a more impressive number. All of them will need at least an assessment, but we'd like to think many of them would turn out to need little or no actual work on site.

 

[InOban]

It was "up to". They've probably just counted all the bridges on that section to make a more impressive number. All of them will need at least an assessment, but we'd like to think many of them would turn out to need little or no actual work on site.

Except presumably raising of parapets

 

[nr758123]

Remodelling four stations - I know Mossley is being moved and Greenfield reconfigured but I didn't realise the others were being worked on as well? There are only four stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield!

Is three tracking between Huddersfield and Marsden still in the scope of TRU?

EDIT: I assume not, because 2 x 29km plus the existing loops at Marsden and Diggle amount to nearly 62km.

The plans being developed for Slaithwaite & Marsden stations (with the latter having been discussed at a public meeting in Marsden in October) are based on three platforms and three tracks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Also here if you cannot read New Civil Engineer.

AtkinsRéalis appointed to lead design integration for Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) section - Rail UK

AtkinsRéalis appointed to lead design integration for Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) section - Rail News

railuk.com

Under an eight-year Lead Design Organisation (LDO) framework, AtkinsRéalis will provide critical integration and design services to Network Rail including engineering management, design integration, schedule integration, BIM and survey management – spanning from design through to construction. This will involve strengthening up to 40 bridges, 62km of track renewals, and remodelling four stations, among other work

How can it take 8 years to deliver 29km of upgrade. This is why the costs on this project have spiralled so much and in all likelihood it will shut out many other needed enhancement projects.

 

[josh-j]

The plans being developed for Slaithwaite & Marsden stations (with the latter having been discussed at a public meeting in Marsden in October) are based on three platforms and three tracks.

Thank you! I forgot about the three tracking.

 

[stevieinselby]

How can it take 8 years to deliver 29km of upgrade. This is why the costs on this project have spiralled so much and in all likelihood it will shut out many other needed enhancement projects.

When you upgrade a live railway that has an intensive service, running through numerous towns and villages and challenging terrain, that's what happens – it takes a long time and costs a lot of money. For a start, unless you are going to shut down the existing service completely for the duration of the works, there is only so much that you can do with small, short-term or overnight possessions.

This is what so many people don't get when they say we should scrap HS2 and upgrade existing lines instead – the complexity of widening or improving the alignment of an existing route, especially where it goes through built-up areas, means it is often slower and more expensive to do that than to build a completely new route.

 

[MarkLong]

When you upgrade a live railway that has an intensive service, running through numerous towns and villages and challenging terrain, that's what happens – it takes a long time and costs a lot of money. For a start, unless you are going to shut down the existing service completely for the duration of the works, there is only so much that you can do with small, short-term or overnight possessions.

This is what so many people don't get when they say we should scrap HS2 and upgrade existing lines instead – the complexity of widening or improving the alignment of an existing route, especially where it goes through built-up areas, means it is often slower and more expensive to do that than to build a completely new route.

I agree because, in the UK, you need to maintain the current railway service and minimize disruption as much as possible. You cannot block this line for electrification and upgrading for several months, whereas in many other countries, that is not the case. When China upgraded the Nanjing to Yangzhou line in 2015, they completely blocked the line and managed to wire/upgrade 100 miles of track in two years. However, this resulted in a city with a population of 10 million losing its railway connection to another city with a population of 2 million for two years. I'm not sure the UK public would accept that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So the approach they have taken by:

1. Hardening and strengthening the alternative routes first (costs money)
2. Using a blockade strategy -but shorter ones (costs money)

is the correct strategy but the traveling public and newspaper editors will still beeeattcch. We are not a communist country where we can just do what the Chinese or Russians would do.

 

[Manutd1999]

So how fast could be delivered if we were to implement a total block? Are we talking a few months of intensive work, or much more?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So how fast could be delivered if we were to implement a total block? Are we talking a few months of intensive work, or much more?

Much of the work won't be amenable to a total block.
It takes time and considerable skilled resources to deliver major interventions, all of which needs to be integrated to deliver a full upgrade.
The government will also cap the rate of spend to limit the impact on budgets, as they have for HS2 (what's left of it).
There are no easy answers, and Stalybridge to Huddersfield is particularly challenging (even if Standedge tunnel is relatively "easy" in engineering terms).

 

[Manutd1999]

Ok, but how long would it take with an unconstrained schedule? (ie, blockades whenever needed)

 

[Geeves]

So how fast could be delivered if we were to implement a total block? Are we talking a few months of intensive work, or much more?

There aren't many works on this scale to compare to but you'd likely be looking at least 3 to 4 years of solid closure.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

When you upgrade a live railway that has an intensive service, running through numerous towns and villages and challenging terrain, that's what happens – it takes a long time and costs a lot of money. For a start, unless you are going to shut down the existing service completely for the duration of the works, there is only so much that you can do with small, short-term or overnight possessions.

This is what so many people don't get when they say we should scrap HS2 and upgrade existing lines instead – the complexity of widening or improving the alignment of an existing route, especially where it goes through built-up areas, means it is often slower and more expensive to do that than to build a completely new route.

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years. They used the Settle & Carlisle Glasgow & Sth.Western for diversions for years to give them the necessary access and they didn't have the plethora of on track plant that we now have access to improve productivity. TPE previous owner stated there poor performance was down to them having to divert so many drivers to gaining route knowledge on alternative routes a few years ago which they have done. So in March we have the Dewsbury line shut Mon-Fri for 3 weeks. Good nice continuous works yet this is the scale of their ambitions


This is easily achievable in 3 x 52hr weekend possessions yet here they have no less 5x120hr possessions. Then its every weekend in April so it doesn't wash that they are restricted on access. Its no wonder TRU is costing so much and this inefficiency is deny much needed enhancements elsewhere across England.

 

[Grumpy]

Thank you! I forgot about the three tracking.

Yes that’s required for the wood chip trains from Liverpool to Drax.
Which will probably have finished running by the time this job’s done.
Can’t we borrow Elon to run GBR?

 

[edwin_m]

Yes that’s required for the wood chip trains from Liverpool to Drax.
Which will probably have finished running by the time this job’s done.
Can’t we borrow Elon to run GBR?

Hopefully there will be other Transpennine freight in future. If it was electric hauled the climb out of Huddersfield might be less of a crawl, but even then it would probably need to be overtaken considering the next place that could happen would be Stalybridge.

 

[AndrewE]

Hopefully there will be other Transpennine freight in future. If it was electric hauled the climb out of Huddersfield might be less of a crawl, but even then it would probably need to be overtaken considering the next place that could happen would be Stalybridge.

not if we had a Huddersfield to Oldham Pennine Base Tunnel...

 

[edwin_m]

not if we had a Huddersfield to Oldham Pennine Base Tunnel...

They are talking about the tunnel only going as far as Marsden, so all the trains would still use this section.

 

[Bald Rick]

is the correct strategy but the traveling public and newspaper editors will still beeeattcch.

Kent route did something funky with access strategies on the Hastings Line - I forget the detail but it was somehting like a few weeks with last trains around 2030 Mon-Weds, to give 8 hours maintenance access overnight. It worked well, delivered loads of maintnenance very efficiently and unquestionably prevented some major failures.

The grief the Kent team got from a minority of passengers south of Tunbridge Wells was unbelievable. Unfortunately, one of them was a feature writer for the Daily Mail…

 

[LittleAH]

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years. They used the Settle & Carlisle Glasgow & Sth.Western for diversions for years to give them the necessary access and they didn't have the plethora of on track plant that we now have access to improve productivity. TPE previous owner stated there poor performance was down to them having to divert so many drivers to gaining route knowledge on alternative routes a few years ago which they have done. So in March we have the Dewsbury line shut Mon-Fri for 3 weeks. Good nice continuous works yet this is the scale of their ambitions

View attachment 174553
This is easily achievable in 3 x 52hr weekend possessions yet here they have no less 5x120hr possessions. Then its every weekend in April so it doesn't wash that they are restricted on access. Its no wonder TRU is costing so much and this inefficiency is deny much needed enhancements elsewhere across England.

Except that it doesn’t take three weekends to do that work. Alongside everything else that is being done that doesn’t fit into leaflet.

Lady Anne signal box is also coming down during these possessions. The drainage on the route has provided to be a massive challenge, beyond what was expected and is impacting time frames.

And the reason TRU costs have changed is because the scope of the project changed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years. They used the Settle & Carlisle Glasgow & Sth.Western for diversions for years to give them the necessary access and they didn't have the plethora of on track plant that we now have access to improve productivity. TPE previous owner stated there poor performance was down to them having to divert so many drivers to gaining route knowledge on alternative routes a few years ago which they have done. So in March we have the Dewsbury line shut Mon-Fri for 3 weeks. Good nice continuous works yet this is the scale of their ambitions

View attachment 174553
This is easily achievable in 3 x 52hr weekend possessions yet here they have no less 5x120hr possessions. Then its every weekend in April so it doesn't wash that they are restricted on access. Its no wonder TRU is costing so much and this inefficiency is deny much needed enhancements elsewhere across England.

Go on then explain to us how's it easy. TRU have their faults but not sure this possession is one of them.

 

[zwk500]

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years.

In the 70s. We're 50 years on now and there's lots that's changed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Makes you wonder how the 2011 TP electrification scheme was planned, costed and approved (by George Osborne; paused/cancelled by Chris Grayling of course).
It was supposed to cost £290 million, be operational by 2019, and they were seriously exploring adding Calder Valley wiring to the scheme as well before the electrification balloon burst.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Makes you wonder how the 2011 TP electrification scheme was planned, costed and approved (by George Osborne; paused/cancelled by Chris Grayling of course).
It was supposed to cost £290 million, be operational by 2019, and they were seriously exploring adding Calder Valley wiring to the scheme as well before the electrification balloon burst.

I think it was based entirely on wires on existing tracks only, no signalling, no four tracking, no upgrading stations, no line speed improvements, no mining remediation, no level crossing closures, no junction improvements etc. Just wires on existing lines.

Still probably would have been more than £290million.

The real problem with it was they assumed electric trains would be faster and that gave the benefits but when they worked it out, 185s are so powerful that the benefit couldn't be realised and it killed the scheme in that form as they then realised we can't just wire it.

 

[quantinghome]

The real problem with it was they assumed electric trains would be faster and that gave the benefits but when they worked it out, 185s are so powerful that the benefit couldn't be realised and it killed the scheme in that form as they then realised we can't just wire it.

Makes sense. I've found the Pennine section wasn't particularly slow (apart from when stuck behind a slower train) - the slowest parts of the route were nearly always in the built up areas approaching Leeds and particularly Manchester. The line was never built to be a fast intercity route. Reworking it into one was always going to be expensive.

The plans being developed for Slaithwaite & Marsden stations (with the latter having been discussed at a public meeting in Marsden in October) are based on three platforms and three tracks.

Yes that’s required for the wood chip trains from Liverpool to Drax.
Which will probably have finished running by the time this job’s done.
Can’t we borrow Elon to run GBR?

Presumably it also allows the fast trains to overtake the slow stoppers.

 

[Meerkat]

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years.

And have you seen the videos of how they did it? Dibnah levels of safety!

 

[AndrewE]

They are talking about the tunnel only going as far as Marsden, so all the trains would still use this section.

Oh dear, that's the UK for you I suppose. Most of the costs (of a longer tunnel) for a fraction of the benefits.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

BR wired weaver jcn to Motherwell, installed four new power boxes across the length of route and extensively remodelled and rationalised the track and signalling in under four years. They used the Settle & Carlisle Glasgow & Sth.Western for diversions for years to give them the necessary access and they didn't have the plethora of on track plant that we now have access to improve productivity. TPE previous owner stated there poor performance was down to them having to divert so many drivers to gaining route knowledge on alternative routes a few years ago which they have done. So in March we have the Dewsbury line shut Mon-Fri for 3 weeks. Good nice continuous works yet this is the scale of their ambitions

Makes you wonder how the 2011 TP electrification scheme was planned, costed and approved (by George Osborne; paused/cancelled by Chris Grayling of course).
It was supposed to cost £290 million, be operational by 2019, and they were seriously exploring adding Calder Valley wiring to the scheme as well before the electrification balloon burst.

Most of the points have already been answered replied to but:

1. There was a PWI seminar which is linked in a few places (on this forum) from a few years ago that answered some of these. They said: "The 185 is a very high performing unit". Long story short stringing the wires up gave very little benefit.
2. The railway, especially between Manchester and York is much more heavily used now since the 1970s - and we have delay/repay etc so keeping disruption to a minimum is more prized.
3. The modernisation now is about capacity and overall modernisation not just stringing the wires up. Route hardening, new signaling, track renewal etc. Lifts in places on stations, re-siting stations, easing curves.
4. I remember well the electrification train for WCML Weaver Jct to Glasgow (it went past my house growing up) - it was also parked up for many years at Ladywell House in Preston in the hopes that Preston to Blackpool would follow on. A flat roof carriage with very little/non-existent fall protection - definitely Fred Dibnah standard!
5. What politicians want and what is sensibly achievable are two completely different things.
6. There are other points I could make

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Most of the points have already been answered replied to but:

1. There was a PWI seminar which is linked in a few places (on this forum) from a few years ago that answered some of these. They said: "The 185 is a very high performing unit". Long story short stringing the wires up gave very little benefit.

At 11B not surprising it gives very little benefit.

1. The railway, especially between Manchester and York is much more heavily used now since the 1970s - and we have delay/repay etc so keeping disruption to a minimum is more prized.

delay repay has no relevance to possession workin. It was recognised that RRB need to be kept to a minimum for cross Pennine traffic which is why TPE has spent a considerable amount of money and time training their crews to allow diversions to take place. This allows extended possessions to take place and should speed up delivery but seemingly not.

1. The modernisation now is about capacity and overall modernisation not just stringing the wires up. Route hardening, new signaling, track renewal etc. Lifts in places on stations, re-siting stations, easing curves.

other than lifts exactly wast they did on Weaver to Motherwell

1. I remember well the electrification train for WCML Weaver Jct to Glasgow (it went past my house growing up) - it was also parked up for many years at Ladywell House in Preston in the hopes that Preston to Blackpool would follow on. A flat roof carriage with very little/non-existent fall protection - definitely Fred Dibnah standard!

Indeed they now have MEWPs and a plethora of other road rail plant to ensure safe access at height that massively improves productivity at the same time

1. What politicians want and what is sensibly achievable are two completely different things.

This is upto the industry - i started this response over the decision to award a contract for 29km for integration services over an eight years. WCML Phase II was under four years and ten times the distance.

1. There are other points I could make

If the industry doesn't challenge itself over time and cost enhancements will continue to wither on the vine.