Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[43066]

Well it can‘t be passenger loadings, at that time, on a Friday, in half term. And it would have been on green signals. Down to two options!

I expect the driver was “driving to the conditions”.

 

[MikeWM]

Just taking a look at Traksy as to what is happening tonight (no idea if this is typical of the issues).

1T48 (1712 off KGX) got stuck from about Royston behind the stopper 2C44 (1627 KGX-CBG) - which appears to have lost 5 minutes waiting to get across Welwyn Viaduct and then somehow (?) gradually lost another 9 minutes or so between there and Cambridge. 2H44 (1643 Liverpool Street - CBG) was then fitted between 2C44 and 1T48 at Shepreth Branch, delaying 1T48 further. As a result 1T48 is about 10 late arriving at Cambridge. (And it's now been cancelled from Cambridge to Kings Lynn due to 'shortage of train crew'!)

1T50 (1739 off KGX) got stuck behind the Brighton-Cambridge 9S44 (1614 off Brighton) which was about 5 late leaving Finsbury Park - as such, 1T50 is currently 5 late at Letchworth...

And 1T52 (1809 off KGX) is cancelled throughout...


Edit : 1T50 has caught up to be almost on-time at CMB because it has time allocated for splitting at Cambridge, which it doesn't do on Fridays. Though as the trains either side of it have been cancelled, it is still another poor evening.

 

[Bald Rick]

I expect the driver was “driving to the conditions”.

Hmm. And yet the other drivers weren’t?

 

[43066]

Hmm. And yet the other drivers weren’t?

It’s entirely down to the individual. I doubt he was deliberately losing time?

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s entirely down to the individual. I doubt he was deliberately losing time?

Or she

But I agree. Assuming it was the driving that was the issue, and not the unit.

 

[43066]

Assuming it was the driving that was the issue, and not the unit.

Absolutely not an issue, to “drive to the conditions”. I know we disagree on this .

GTR do seem to have a pedestrian driving policy generally, I regularly out brake and out accelerate them - and I’m pretty conservative.

However nothing will ever be said if “driving to conditions” is the reason put onto a please explain.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

The dreaded Ally Pally stop. In the past they would have put the 2C onto the fast at Marshmoor.

They actually did that 3 times today

Realtime Trains | 2C45 1526 Cambridge to London Kings Cross | 21/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C45 1526 departure from Cambridge to London Kings Cross on 21/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2C49 1626 Cambridge to London Kings Cross | 21/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C49 1626 departure from Cambridge to London Kings Cross on 21/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2C51 1656 Cambridge to London Kings Cross | 21/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 2C51 1656 departure from Cambridge to London Kings Cross on 21/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class 170101]

Don't forget some drivers won't be doing overtime as well due to their big back payment in mid 2024 - itsa still the same tax year until April 6th.

 

[bramling]

Well, there’s only 5 reasons, and one of then can be discounted (running times) as it seems to work most of the time.




This is another of them. But it seems that it does work many times in the peak, and doesn’t on others.

So that leaves:

Unit low on power
Signals not being cleared by signaller (seems unlikely with progressive time loss)
Driver

I had another shambolic journey in earlier.

So started late from Letchworth. This was partly because the Cambridge/Brighton was a couple of minutes down, but if it hadn’t been this it would have been because there was late running in the down direction as well.

Train (2x387) was low on power, the car I was in had motors isolated, though to be honest it didn’t seem to affect acceleration too badly.

Slowish driver change at Hitchin, this is another thing that probably isn’t helping, as a lot of these services seem to have this.

The new driver seemed pretty slow to me, very pedestrian into platforms, despite the conditions being fine.

Lost more time between Knebworth and Welwyn north with LNER prioritised. Amazingly didn’t get stuck behind the 717 at Welwyn, despite now being passed its departure time. Then got lumbered with a load of dopey Cambridge passengers who seemed to have been turfed off their non-stop service at Welwyn (which had been at least 30 late, and I presume was reversed at Welwyn to form its next down service which would have been the Letchworth stopping service - not entirely sure of the logic here bearing in mind these services get nearly 45 minutes turnround time at Letchworth, but perhaps there was a crew-related reason?). Slow dwell time at Welwyn whilst all the Cambridge dopes faffed around.

Made up a couple of minutes non-stopping Hatfield, I believe the up fast was blocked due to a track issue, so presume the Hatfield calls were ditched to free up capacity on the slow line.

Then got stuck behind the Hertford 717 through and beyond Alexandra Palace. No attempt by the signaller to do anything at all to soften this, despite the US2 being fully available, or likewise the 717 could have been routed via platform 1 at Alexandra Palace but wasn’t.

So 12 late at Finsbury Park, managed to make up a bit and be 10 late into King’s Cross.

So in summary:
* late start due to other services
* unit slightly low on power
* driving a bit pedestrian
* lackadaisical regulating
* infrastructure issues

I guess I was lucky it only ended being 10 late. Seems I was lucky not to get stuck behind the 717 at Welwyn as that’s what often happens. Missing Hatfield probably saved a couple of minutes.

 

[MikeWM]

Here's the current 4-week rolling average for evening peak Kings Cross -> Ely services:



Which are even worse than the figures last week, with the exception of the 1839 where the average arrival has dropped to (just) below 20 minutes late (!).

 

[choochoochoo]

I had another shambolic journey in earlier.

So started late from Letchworth. This was partly because the Cambridge/Brighton was a couple of minutes down, but if it hadn’t been this it would have been because there was late running in the down direction as well.

Train (2x387) was low on power, the car I was in had motors isolated, though to be honest it didn’t seem to affect acceleration too badly.

Slowish driver change at Hitchin, this is another thing that probably isn’t helping, as a lot of these services seem to have this.

The new driver seemed pretty slow to me, very pedestrian into platforms, despite the conditions being fine.

Lost more time between Knebworth and Welwyn north with LNER prioritised. Amazingly didn’t get stuck behind the 717 at Welwyn, despite now being passed its departure time. Then got lumbered with a load of dopey Cambridge passengers who seemed to have been turfed off their non-stop service at Welwyn (which had been at least 30 late, and I presume was reversed at Welwyn to form its next down service which would have been the Letchworth stopping service - not entirely sure of the logic here bearing in mind these services get nearly 45 minutes turnround time at Letchworth, but perhaps there was a crew-related reason?). Slow dwell time at Welwyn whilst all the Cambridge dopes faffed around.

Made up a couple of minutes non-stopping Hatfield, I believe the up fast was blocked due to a track issue, so presume the Hatfield calls were ditched to free up capacity on the slow line.

Then got stuck behind the Hertford 717 through and beyond Alexandra Palace. No attempt by the signaller to do anything at all to soften this, despite the US2 being fully available, or likewise the 717 could have been routed via platform 1 at Alexandra Palace but wasn’t.

So 12 late at Finsbury Park, managed to make up a bit and be 10 late into King’s Cross.

So in summary:
* late start due to other services
* unit slightly low on power
* driving a bit pedestrian
* lackadaisical regulating
* infrastructure issues

I guess I was lucky it only ended being 10 late. Seems I was lucky not to get stuck behind the 717 at Welwyn as that’s what often happens. Missing Hatfield probably saved a couple of minutes.

Doesn’t the Up Slow 2 near ally pally have a ESR right now ? Also at that time of the morning the US2 has a lot of stock coming out of Hornsey depot so might’ve not saved a lot of time routing down there.

However, the putting you behind a Hertford stopper is not as easily explicable.

Also despite the conditions seeming fine, I believe there is still low rail adhesion at that time of the morning. Which might explain the slower approaches.

 

[bramling]

In

Doesn’t the Up Slow 2 near ally pally have a ESR right now ? Also at that time of the morning the US2 has a lot of stock coming out of Hornsey depot so might’ve not saved a lot of time routing down there.

However, the putting you behind a Hertford stopper is not as easily explicable.

Also despite the conditions seeming fine, I believe there is still low rail adhesion at that time of the morning. Which might explain the slower approaches.

Not sure about the ESR, however this was early afternoon so shouldn’t have been any rail condition issues - indeed the sun was shining! The US2 was completely clear looking at OTT.

In

Here's the current 4-week rolling average for evening peak Kings Cross -> Ely services:

View attachment 175274

Which are even worse than the figures last week, with the exception of the 1839 where the average arrival has dropped to (just) below 20 minutes late (!).

That’s quite damning really. But it largely ties in with my experiences - I’ve been getting the 2127 out of KX a bit recently, and the incoming service which is due to arrive at 2102 is invariably late arriving, not uncommon recently for it to not arrive until around 2120.

 

[Bikeman78]

Oh of course, but at the same if interventions are required all the time, and the complaints start flooding in about trains being turned short / run fast and eventually that goes back to NR & TOC about the train plan.

I would like to think so. Hopefully the new timetable will improve matters.

Well, there’s only 5 reasons, and one of then can be discounted (running times) as it seems to work most of the time.




This is another of them. But it seems that it does work many times in the peak, and doesn’t on others.

So that leaves:

Unit low on power
Signals not being cleared by signaller (seems unlikely with progressive time loss)
Driver

I have to say that, on routes I travel on quite often, the variation in runs is quite significant. E.g. from Reading to Waterloo, some trains will whizz along and wait at most stations for over a minute. Others will gradually lose time without an obvious explanation, so either the unit is under powered or the driver is taking it cautiously. I guess comparing runs with the same pair of units would narrow it down.

 

[WesternBiker]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W23527/2025-02-20/detailed

Here is an example of what I notice, losing time without any obvious reason. I did spot check a few others today and found some were OK but found this sub threshold time loss on a few services.

Edit: I'm not saying this is the beginning and end of reliability on the GN but perhaps suggests something is off.

That's my observation too: my local station is Meldreth, so I'm a regular user of the stopper, to/from both London and Cambridge. Too many seem to struggle to keep to time along this stretch. When they are slightly delayed (e.g. 2-3 minutes), it also seems impossible to make up any time.

Are there power supply issues on the Hitchin - Shepreth Branch Jn section? From time to time, services get upended by "a power supply issue in the Letchworth area". (Though these are only 8-car services, so they really shouldn't suffer from power supply issues?)

 

[Horizon22]

Others will gradually lose time without an obvious explanation, so either the unit is under powered or the driver is taking it cautiously. I guess comparing runs with the same pair of units would narrow it down.

Well you also cannot tell whether there is a late unit ahead / other conflict and the driver is running on cautionary aspects.

 

[Magdalen Road]

My experience, in addition to those observed by MikeWM.

• Delays to driver changeovers causing late departures out of Cambridge (recently there was a run of these on the early morning Kings Lynn to Kings Cross). Even only a couple of minute means the train can end up behind stoppers, then be 8-10 mins late.
• Signal / points failures on a daily basis - turn into 10+ minutes delay.
• Overrunning engineering works are also an issue. Happened again this morning, train was stopped near Welwyn, then had to crawl through the area. 20 mins late into Kings Cross. We were 14.75 mins late yesterday.

These, coupled with getting stuck behind the stoppers mean that the punctuality is dreadful. Another annoyance is that the delays seem to be around 13-14 mins so no delay repay.
In the last six weeks, my morning commute’s cumulative delays are 160 mins and that's commuting 10 days per month.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well you also cannot tell whether there is a late unit ahead / other conflict and the driver is running on cautionary aspects.

Oh you can

 

[bramling]

My experience, in addition to those observed by MikeWM.

• Delays to driver changeovers causing late departures out of Cambridge (recently there was a run of these on the early morning Kings Lynn to Kings Cross). Even only a couple of minute means the train can end up behind stoppers, then be 8-10 mins late.
• Signal / points failures on a daily basis - turn into 10+ minutes delay.
• Overrunning engineering works are also an issue. Happened again this morning, train was stopped near Welwyn, then had to crawl through the area. 20 mins late into Kings Cross. We were 14.75 mins late yesterday.

These, coupled with getting stuck behind the stoppers mean that the punctuality is dreadful. Another annoyance is that the delays seem to be around 13-14 mins so no delay repay.
In the last six weeks, my morning commute’s cumulative delays are 160 mins and that's commuting 10 days per month.
View attachment 175326

Complete meltdown on the GN side again tonight due to a trespass incident at Stevenage. Whatever the reasons, it isn’t really acceptable to have the whole GN service pretty much vanish into thin air for fairly run-of-the-mill problems.

The rolling stock diagrams seem fairly robust, but it seems the crew diagrams really aren’t. It’s the only real explanation for how the service just can’t recover from disruption.

This is something that has seemed to arise since GTR took over, and it can’t (directly at least) be blamed on the Thameslink effect, as we’re talking about GN-side only services.

I’ve always found crewing on GN quite odd since GTR took over. There seem to be a massive amount of pass journeys, there’s crew reliefs at odd places (for example Finsbury Park on a down 2Cxx service), and of course not enough drivers. And they don’t seem to have the resources to manage driver deployment when things go wrong.

A case in point - tonight’s 2127 KX to Cambridge seems to have been cancelled. It was originally showing as running, but a driver never appeared. I’d somewhat predicted this, given that the incoming service (which also brings in the driver to take it out) never came in. So it seems a train full of people just sat there watching their watches. It’s still there now.

 

[43096]

I have to say that, on routes I travel on quite often, the variation in runs is quite significant. E.g. from Reading to Waterloo, some trains will whizz along and wait at most stations for over a minute. Others will gradually lose time without an obvious explanation, so either the unit is under powered or the driver is taking it cautiously. I guess comparing runs with the same pair of units would narrow it down.

Or the guard is slow at releasing the doors. Different stock types also have different door cycle times (Desiros are very slow, for instance).

 

[Horizon22]

Oh you can

If you’re on a train and looking at real time maps or in hindsight, but not always!

 

[Failed Unit]

Complete meltdown on the GN side again tonight due to a trespass incident at Stevenage. Whatever the reasons, it isn’t really acceptable to have the whole GN service pretty much vanish into thin air for fairly run-of-the-mill problems.

The rolling stock diagrams seem fairly robust, but it seems the crew diagrams really aren’t. It’s the only real explanation for how the service just can’t recover from disruption.

This is something that has seemed to arise since GTR took over, and it can’t (directly at least) be blamed on the Thameslink effect, as we’re talking about GN-side only services.

I’ve always found crewing on GN quite odd since GTR took over. There seem to be a massive amount of pass journeys, there’s crew reliefs at odd places (for example Finsbury Park on a down 2Cxx service), and of course not enough drivers. And they don’t seem to have the resources to manage driver deployment when things go wrong.

A case in point - tonight’s 2127 KX to Cambridge seems to have been cancelled. It was originally showing as running, but a driver never appeared. I’d somewhat predicted this, given that the incoming service (which also brings in the driver to take it out) never came in. So it seems a train full of people just sat there watching their watches. It’s still there now.

I was waiting for that. Communications dreadful. They stopped the 2209 instead and reinstated the 2227. I was originally wanting that and saw if was cancelled so headed home earlier so again annoyed it was reinstated.

The Moorgate - Welwyn service was really bad. I assume trains had backed up and blocked the platforms at Welwyn Garden City earlier. Unless the metro/ fast diagrams interwork. 3 Hours after the incident the Metros were still all significant delays / cancelled

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I was waiting for that. Communications dreadful. They stopped the 2209 instead and reinstated the 2227. I was originally wanting that and saw if was cancelled so headed home earlier so again annoyed it was reinstated.

The Moorgate - Welwyn service was really bad. I assume trains had backed up and blocked the platforms at Welwyn Garden City earlier. Unless the metro/ fast diagrams interwork. 3 Hours after the incident the Metros were still all significant delays / cancelled

Trains had backed up all along the down slow to Welwyn

 

[Julia]

I was waiting for that. Communications dreadful. They stopped the 2209 instead and reinstated the 2227. I was originally wanting that and saw if was cancelled so headed home earlier so again annoyed it was reinstated.

The Moorgate - Welwyn service was really bad. I assume trains had backed up and blocked the platforms at Welwyn Garden City earlier. Unless the metro/ fast diagrams interwork. 3 Hours after the incident the Metros were still all significant delays / cancelled

Was on 1P88, the 18.12 from Kings Cross and watching things unfold on Traksy... it appeared that as soon as the line was blocked north of Stevenage to remove the trespassers, trains were ordered to stop in platforms - so slow Letchworths and Cambridges got in the way of the GN inners. There did seem to be an atrocious lack of information around about the likely reopening of the line and alternative routes, and no ticket acceptance arranged via Luton or Harlow for points north of the blocked area. Although 1P88 set off about 45 late, there was then massive congestion through Welwyn (passed 87 late) and again at Conington (110 late)

 

[jon0844]

It's standard policy for the signaller to hold trains in platforms wherever possible and prevent trains leaving King's Cross. That does mean when services resume there can be trains further away than they otherwise might have been, but it's all to prevent people detraining and causing even more problems and delays.

 

[Julia]

It's standard policy for the signaller to hold trains in platforms wherever possible and prevent trains leaving King's Cross. That does mean when services resume there can be trains further away than they otherwise might have been, but it's all to prevent people detraining and causing even more problems and delays.

That's definitely the right thing to do, it just had the undesirable side-effect of knocking out the Moorgate services as well. Perhaps some creative reversing/terminating of down slow services at Welwyn might have helped keep at least some trains moving, but you can't be sure you're not making things even worse with more stock and people in the wrong places (and building up crowds of angry commuters on the cold platforms at WGC!).

My only real complaints were against the trespassers themselves, and the lack of someone in a high place foreseeing that not rounding them up immediately would bring the whole evening peak service crashing down, and getting as many people on to alternative routes asap would mitigate things somewhat.

 

[baz962]

Complete meltdown on the GN side again tonight due to a trespass incident at Stevenage. Whatever the reasons, it isn’t really acceptable to have the whole GN service pretty much vanish into thin air for fairly run-of-the-mill problems.

The rolling stock diagrams seem fairly robust, but it seems the crew diagrams really aren’t. It’s the only real explanation for how the service just can’t recover from disruption.

This is something that has seemed to arise since GTR took over, and it can’t (directly at least) be blamed on the Thameslink effect, as we’re talking about GN-side only services.

I’ve always found crewing on GN quite odd since GTR took over. There seem to be a massive amount of pass journeys, there’s crew reliefs at odd places (for example Finsbury Park on a down 2Cxx service), and of course not enough drivers. And they don’t seem to have the resources to manage driver deployment when things go wrong.

A case in point - tonight’s 2127 KX to Cambridge seems to have been cancelled. It was originally showing as running, but a driver never appeared. I’d somewhat predicted this, given that the incoming service (which also brings in the driver to take it out) never came in. So it seems a train full of people just sat there watching their watches. It’s still there now.

To be fair , you are spot on about the crewing i believe. Bumped into an old colleague that became a driver for them and they get out of a lot of work. Some drivers sign a particular route but not all traction and some don't sign a route etc. To add that they also said that they will have a job that has one or two driver changes on route and if one driver is missing , then the whole diagram is canned.

 

[sharpener]

It’s entirely down to the individual. I doubt he was deliberately losing time?

But they don't seem to try very hard to make up time either. This month Ian Walmsley devotes his column in Modern Railways to criticism of defensive driving and "the ceremony of the doors". On a recent round trip to Liverpool we continually lost a minute here and a minute there often due to what appeared to be a lack of urgency in the stations rather than any good reason.

Also, how much are drivers told about where they are in the grand scheme of things? I have been on an up stopper where he coasted towards the 2-track stretch at Digswell, then as soon as overtaken by something doing line speed accelerated with great precision so had a good flying start just as the signal cleared.

Is this all down to experience, or is it like ATC where he is told by the signaller at what exact clock time he needs to be there?

 

[GN Boy]

To be fair , you are spot on about the crewing i believe. Bumped into an old colleague that became a driver for them and they get out of a lot of work. Some drivers sign a particular route but not all traction and some don't sign a route etc. To add that they also said that they will have a job that has one or two driver changes on route and if one driver is missing , then the whole diagram is canned.

We do/did have 9J/9S/2C trips with no less than 3 to 4 different drivers!

 

[MikeWM]

And they don’t seem to have the resources to manage driver deployment when things go wrong.

You'd hope at least - given how often things do go wrong! - that they'd be setup to rapidly implement a split service London-Cambridge and/or Cambridge-Kings Lynn, depending on where the problem is. But they are utterly woeful at implementing that, I've not seen it done well in years. Though I have seen it done badly many times, including trying to go north when there are abandoned trains with no driver blocking platforms at Cambridge in the evening rush hour - which have still been there an hour or more later, delaying everything else trying to get through Cambridge.

I've commented on here a number of times how awful they are at recovering service when something does go wrong. They seem to have got even worse at that recently. I'm not sure if that is driver-positioning-related or not, but compared to other TOCs they're really not very good at it.

Goodness only knows how bad things would be if they weren't DOO and they had to arrange matching services to guards as well!

 

[WeGoAgain]

But they don't seem to try very hard to make up time either. This month Ian Walmsley devotes his column in Modern Railways to criticism of defensive driving and "the ceremony of the doors". On a recent round trip to Liverpool we continually lost a minute here and a minute there often due to what appeared to be a lack of urgency in the stations rather than any good reason.

Also, how much are drivers told about where they are in the grand scheme of things? I have been on an up stopper where he coasted towards the 2-track stretch at Digswell, then as soon as overtaken by something doing line speed accelerated with great precision so had a good flying start just as the signal cleared.

Is this all down to experience, or is it like ATC where he is told by the signaller at what exact clock time he needs to be there?

How do you propose they make up time?

The door release/close process is a tricky one, as if the Driver gets it wrong, s/he may well end up serving time at HM's pleasure.

I'm quite sure the drivers have paperwork which tells them what times they are meant to arrive and depart stations they are stopping at. - How are you aware of when the signal cleared? Those Train apps aren't 100% accurate...