Prams on trains

[deltic1989]

As some of you may be aware Mrs deltic and I recently welcomed our daughter into the world. We have already taken her on a very crowded train where there were 4 buggys with children in them that looked to me old enough to occupy a seat. We had to take our daughter out of her pram on the guards request which we did, the same request was made of a lady with a girl in a pram that looked to me to be about 4 years old, I didn't hear the whole conversation but to put it politely I think the second word was 'off' with the guard invited to select her first. I'm just curious what's the official position on this, if the guard asks you to take a child out of a pram and you refuse (weather politely or rudely) what can the guard do?
If I may add a foot note I'm just asking out of curiosity not because I'm planning to deliberately defy a guard next time we all travel, wouldn't want this going the same way as the 'luggage on seats' thread.

 

[anthony263]

Isnt there something in the railway Bylaws on this. If the train is busy and the pram can be folded then i think it is common curtisy to do so.

 

[exile]

Yet another thing that turns me into Victor Meldrew! Mums with kids in buggies who never take them out and put them on their knees and talk to or play with them, and expect them to sit quietly whilst paying them no attention whatsoever. Mind you it appears pushchairs have given way to buggies - and these have now been replaced by "travel systems" that are approaching the size of a small car.

 

[SS4]

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule largely because there has never been a need for one. I still don't think there is a need for one because most parents are like you and Mrs Deltic and apply common sense.
It wouldn't surprise me if certain people put children who were 5 and older in the buggy in an attempt to convince the guard that they did not have to pay!

NXWM buses introduced a policy in May that stated only two unfolded buggies per bus are allowed which was wise because you'd get them blocking the aisle and it was like playing Towers of Hanoi to get off the bus. Obviously this is the bus and not the train but I can see a similar thing happening if the facility continues to be abused not unlike current cycle reservations.

A quick scan of the CoC and Byelaws reveal nothing

 

[First class]

This is the byelaw:

(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in
which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to
any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such
instructions

If you deem a pram a "conveyance" (which it is if you read Byelaw 15 for context)

(2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall
leave or place it on any part of the railway:
(i) in any manner or place where it may cause an
obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using
the railway; or
(ii) otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or
on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person.

If the child is over 5 then:

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the by-law, who decides what "without good cause" actually means. It is the railway staff member or the traveller? I can see a conflict of ideas here.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yet another thing that turns me into Victor Meldrew! Mums with kids in buggies who never take them out and put them on their knees and talk to or play with them, and expect them to sit quietly whilst paying them no attention whatsoever.

Same here!
I was waiting at Bristol Parkway earlier to get on one of the rail replacement buses to Bristol Temple Meads, and there was a woman with a baby in a buggy there. The poor kid was obviously very bored and uncomfortable, had possibly soiled itself (there was a bit of a smell) and was just being a generally normal baby. The mother wanted nothing to do with it and was busy sorting out a cup of coffee and didn't give the kid any attention at all, despite all the screaming it was making.

 

[Greenback]

Yet another thing that turns me into Victor Meldrew! Mums with kids in buggies who never take them out and put them on their knees and talk to or play with them, and expect them to sit quietly whilst paying them no attention whatsoever. Mind you it appears pushchairs have given way to buggies - and these have now been replaced by "travel systems" that are approaching the size of a small car.

I see far too many parents, not just on trains, who leave their little ones sat in a buggy whiel they prattle on incessantly to their friends through their mobiles. It's no wonder the children get bored and start to play up.

On topic, I've never personally seen anyone with a buggy refuse a request to move it, or fold it up. However, I know conductors who would refuse to start the train until they did - ' This train isn't going anywhere with that buggy there!'.

 

[First class]

In the by-law, who decides what "without good cause" actually means. It is the railway staff member or the traveller? I can see a conflict of ideas here.

That phrase will be to stop idiotic/unreasonable demands, like "stick your hand in the fire"... It will be a case of the passenger being competent to carry out the instruction requested by the authorised person.

"Without good cause" would be defined by the authorised person making a report of the incident (MG11/caution etc) and then a magistrate would decide whether s/he agreed.

 

[deltic1989]

What amazed me though was the fact of how rude the woman was in response to the guards request but when the guard basically decided not to argue and went off, the woman turned to her equally foul mouthed mate saying she was going to effing report the guard. All this in front of a child who then proceeded to tell everyone who walked past for the rest of the journey to eff off.

 

[bAzTNM]

Prams don't bother me, it's the ones who bring big, massive bicycles onto (known) packed trains that bug me. Demanding space and stuff. Don't like it.

 

[jopsuk]

Prams don't bother me, it's the ones who bring big, massive bicycles onto (known) packed trains that bug me. Demanding space and stuff. Don't like it.

They have opposite counterparts. Those who, on a less than half full train, insist on sitting on the folding seats in the bike storage area and don't want to budge when a cyclist boards.

 

[trentside]

What amazed me though was the fact of how rude the woman was in response to the guards request but when the guard basically decided not to argue and went off, the woman turned to her equally foul mouthed mate saying she was going to effing report the guard. All this in front of a child who then proceeded to tell everyone who walked past for the rest of the journey to eff off.

I've seen this so many times on both buses and trains. There is a belief that a buggy gives you the right to priority over others, and this simply isn't the case. Once saw a bus driver get a load of abuse for telling a woman to fold a buggy or wait for the next bus. The reason? A wheelchair user was on the bus in the wheelchair space, normally used by buggies.

 

[Inox]

dont do this:

 

[starrymarkb]

I remember seeing a day care centre trying to get 8 double buggies on a single 153. They were refused by the guard

 

[jon0844]

I remember a mum asking some elderly people to move from the 'wheelchair area' on a train to Moorgate one morning, pointing to the wheelchair symbol. The couple moved too, so she could push the buggy in and take up loads of room.

Trains to Moorgate in the morning aren't exactly what you'd call empty!

I wanted to explain the difference between a buggy and a wheelchair but figured I'd be slaughtered for not having any compassion by other passengers (even though, I'm sure most were thinking the same as me).

 

[ess]

what's easy to forget is that the children might be having a 'bad day' so the parents are a tad irritable. while one passenger might have calmly walked up the stairs with their coffee, the parent has just struggled to get the buggy upstairs with a moaning child. for some it's really hard work especially if the child is heavy. the last thing they need is a guard or other passenger telling them to have more hassle and remove their child from the buggy. public transport should help parents and disabled travellers. or should the state provide subsidised parking and a free car?

 

[stut]

Yet another thing that turns me into Victor Meldrew! Mums with kids in buggies who never take them out and put them on their knees and talk to or play with them, and expect them to sit quietly whilst paying them no attention whatsoever.

That's not quite true. Many of them now have DVD players which play kids' programmes at full volume for the entire carriage to hear. It's the sharing nature of this selfless act that I particularly love.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure we can compare a parent with a buggy with someone who may have no choice but to use a wheelchair, or some other disability that requires priority.

A parent has a choice about doing a lot of things, including buying a car and avoiding public transport completely. Someone in a wheelchair presumably does not.

My opinion may change when I have a child, but I sincerely hope not. It's surely about courtesy to others?

 

[anthony263]

I've seen this so many times on both buses and trains. There is a belief that a buggy gives you the right to priority over others, and this simply isn't the case. Once saw a bus driver get a load of abuse for telling a woman to fold a buggy or wait for the next bus. The reason? A wheelchair user was on the bus in the wheelchair space, normally used by buggies.

This happened to myself in Gowerton once. Sorry to the buggy bridgade but wheelchair gets more priority. besides there are plenty of other buses from Gowerton

 

[deltic1989]

dont do this:

Flaming heck, was the child still in it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

what's easy to forget is that the children might be having a 'bad day' so the parents are a tad irritable. while one passenger might have calmly walked up the stairs with their coffee, the parent has just struggled to get the buggy upstairs with a moaning child. for some it's really hard work especially if the child is heavy. the last thing they need is a guard or other passenger telling them to have more hassle and remove their child from the buggy. public transport should help parents and disabled travellers. or should the state provide subsidised parking and a free car?

I agree that somedays children can be hard work, I can only speak from my own opinion though when I say that no-one ever said bringing up a child is going to be plain sailing. There is an element of effort involved, as those of us with children know. Fair enough the youngster may have had a bad day , this particular day my daughter had been up all night and I was rather irritable but I complied with the guards request without fuss. In my opinion this lady was unreasonable at the least, I can't see any justification for effing and blinding at someone who is trying to do their job and keep them safe during their journey. To answer the last part of the post quoted above, if Mr Cameron offered me a free car as they do for those on high rate dla I beleive I would jump at the chance, the problem would come when I pulled up at the petrol station and found that petrol costs about £6 per gallon. Like I say this is all my opinion and not a dig at your opinion sir.

 

[northwichcat]

Remember a pram and a buggy are different things. A pram is a larger posher more expensive version of a buggy, which usually has the baby/toddler in a lying down position. A buggy usually has the baby/toddler in a sitting position.

I don't think prams should be allowed on trains unless folded and stored in the luggage space.

 

[deltic1989]

Remember a pram and a buggy are different things. A pram is a larger posher more expensive version of a buggy, which usually has the baby/toddler in a lying down position. A buggy usually has the baby/toddler in a sitting position.

I don't think prams should be allowed on trains unless folded and stored in the luggage space.

I didn't realise there was a difference I've been using the terms interchangeably to mean the same thing, sorry for any confusion.

 

[northwichcat]

what's easy to forget is that the children might be having a 'bad day' so the parents are a tad irritable.

If all commuters acted the same way as parents because they'd had a stressful day at work and there's a lack of seats on the trains then the evening trains would all need police presence.

 

[Nym]

Exactly, I'm hard pressed to have had a good day, but I don't go round ****ting pepole with my rucksack or demanding a space to sit down on the peak diagrams off Piccadilly (I Just get there in good time anyway)

 

[Inox]

Flaming heck, was the child still in it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

no, the two parents and child were occupying the four seats next to the pram on the other side of the train....

 

[BestWestern]

Uh oh, major rant time...!!

I am very firmly of the opinion - from my own ongoing experience - that mothers with buggies/prams/pushchairs are as a general rule amongst the rudest, least co-operative and most ignorant groups of passengers that we have to encounter/endure in our line of work. That doesn't apply to them all of course, but those to whom it does apply stand way above the crowd.

Many a time I have had confrontations with lazy, aggressive women having done nothing more than politely asked them to fold up their pushchair, and had a response of the sort I might expect if I'd asked them to leave the baby behind at the next stop! The need to 'fold' is invariably blatantly obvious, as the train concerned is generally full to capacity, with their buggy wedged sideways across a doorway or aisle, preventing others from leaving/joining the train or helpfully providing us with an injury waiting to happen. I will always try to make it clear prior to boarding that the service is full and the buggy needs to be folded - despite this generally being very obvious to anybody with half a brain and any sense of consideration for others - and get sick and tired beyond belief of then walking through the train to find that, despite previous agreement to ensure they were able to board the service, there was clearly never any intention whatsoever of actually complying with the instruction.

One recent instance sticks in memory; a particularly rude and generally unwelcome 'customer' offered the usual reluctant agreement to fold up the pushchair while still on the platform. On departure a very clear P.A. was made specifically advising (again) those with buggies that they would need to be folded of they were obstructing an aisle or doorway. On taking a stroll through the train I encounter the afore-mentioned individual, who had taken the child out of the buggy, but neglected to fold it. I again repeat my request, again recieve a vague acknowledgement, go to deal with the next station stop and return to find that she has placed the kiddie back into the pushchair, in order to very smugly tell me that she couldn't fold it now because it's no longer empty. Grrr.... One then has to stand there, playschool teacher style, supervising these brainless idiots until the required buggy shuffle is complete, all the while enduring snidey and mildly abusive comments to the effect that this is clearly the first time you have ever encountered a child etc etc...

I've said many times at the usual meetings and briefings that what is needed is a mandatory 'buggies must be folded' policy, advertised and clearly announced at stations and suchlike. Guards could then use some discretion when needed. No progress yet, but I'll keep telling 'em!!

 

[anthony263]

Uh oh, major rant time...!!

I am very firmly of the opinion - from my own ongoing experience - that mothers with buggies/prams/pushchairs are as a general rule amongst the rudest, least co-operative and most ignorant groups of passengers that we have to encounter/endure in our line of work. That doesn't apply to them all of course, but those to whom it does apply stand way above the crowd.

Many a time I have had confrontations with lazy, aggressive women having done nothing more than politely asked them to fold up their pushchair, and had a response of the sort I might expect if I'd asked them to leave the baby behind at the next stop! The need to 'fold' is invariably blatantly obvious, as the train concerned is generally full to capacity, with their buggy wedged sideways across a doorway or aisle, preventing others from leaving/joining the train or helpfully providing us with an injury waiting to happen. I will always try to make it clear prior to boarding that the service is full and the buggy needs to be folded - despite this generally being very obvious to anybody with half a brain and any sense of consideration for others - and get sick and tired beyond belief of then walking through the train to find that, despite previous agreement to ensure they were able to board the service, there was clearly never any intention whatsoever to actually comply with the instruction.

One recent instance sticks in memory; a particularly rude and generally unwelcome member of society offered the usual reluctant agreement to fold up the pushchair while still on the platform. On departure a very clear P.A. was made specifically advising (again) those with buggies that they would need to be folded of they were obstructing an aisle or doorway. On taking a stroll through the train I encounter the afore-mentioned individual, who had taken the child out of the buggy, but neglected to fold it. I again repeat my request, again recieve a vague acknowledgement, go to deal with the next station stop and return to find that she has placed the kiddie back into the pushchair, in order to very smugly tell me that she couldn't fold it now because it's no longer empty. Grrr.... One then has to stand their in playschool teacher style, supervising these brainless idiots until the required buggy shuffle is complete, all the while enduring snidey and mildly abusive comments to the effect that this is clearly the first time you have ever encountered a child before...

I've said many times at the usual meetings and briefings that what is needed is a mandatory 'buggies must be folded' policy, advertised and clearly announced at stations and suchlike. Guards could then use some discretion when needed. No progress yet, but I'll keep telling 'em!!

Yes I share your opinion. I did remember a few years ago, where some mothers went to the south wales evening post newspaper because first had used a step entrance dennis dart (still my favourite) and they suffered because they had to fold down their pram, needless to say I know a few drivers who would avoid picking them up.

I did have the bad situation of actually meeting one of them, even suggested putting a warning out over the radio to the driver who was with me

 

[bAzTNM]

I remember seeing a day care centre trying to get 8 double buggies on a single 153. They were refused by the guard

I saw this a very weeks ago at Dalreoch in Scotland. Tons of prams on the station. Some of them got on, some of them were refused.

 

[aspierail]

dont do this:

That is just pure madness i must say.