Liverpool Lime Street to Euston

[Kier]

Why is there only one train an hour? Every other major city (some considerably smaller than Liverpool) have at least two. Leicester has four!

 

[Lampshade]

All down to the DfT, they think Manchester warrants 3tph, although it's good for the people of Macclesfield, Wilmslow and Stoke-on-Trent who get cheap VT-only fares to Manchester. There is a path for a second Liverpool service, it just hasn't been taken up due to the (until now) lack of a 53rd Pendolino.

Some cities have less than 1tph, Sunderland, Bradford, Hull, Lincoln, Bangor, Carlisle, Glasgow and Aberdeen spring to mind. Wolverhampton, Preston, Lancaster and Chester only have 1tph, some arguably busier than Liverpool due to a larger catchment area.

 

[tbtc]

Why is there only one train an hour? Every other major city (some considerably smaller than Liverpool) have at least two. Leicester has four!

Leicester is a lot closer to London - by the same logic you should complain that Croydon has significantly more trains!

At privatisation, Manchester/ Leeds/ Liverpool/ Nottingham/ Cardiff/ Bristol generally only had one train an hour (off peak) to London. All of the others now have two (three in the case of Manchester).

However, bear in mind that Chester and Warrington both have better London services than they used to (and they do take some of the Merseyside traffic)

 

[38Cto15E]

I could post a cheap shot about more people in Leicester want to go to work more, but I am not going to as it's Christmas.

I would have thought it's a bums on seats thing, Manchester /Stockport has a huge catchment area whilst Merseyside does not have the same amount of businesses and residents.
Maybe also Virgin Trains have a say regarding pathing and stock allocation, and they can make more money by sending another set elsewhere.

Leicester only gets 4 services because it is before both Nottingham and Derby, if it was the other side of Trent Jct it would only get 2.
Also Leicester is about 100 miles from the capital whilst Lime Street is the best part of 200 miles from London.

Hopefully in the near future Lime Street will have 2 services per hour.

 

[Lampshade]

Leicester is a lot closer to London - by the same logic you should complain that Croydon has significantly more trains!

Also this.

Reading's only a town yet gets a minimum of 12tph to London.

 

[tempests1]

Also this.

Reading's only a town yet gets a minimum of 12tph to London.

Haslemere get 4tph

 

[Schnellzug]

i expect it's probably due to Politics, as Manchester likes to think of itself as the capital of the North, so the Westminster government is trying to ingratiate itself as much as possible for when the North becomes "independent" following devolution in a similar fashion to Scotland.

 

[tgsh2011]

So does the DfT presumably think the people of Merseyside are just demanding the 'ludicrous' 2 trains per hour service to Birmingham New Street?

 

[ValleyLines142]

I see your point, but it isn't a massive deal to change at Crewe or Manchester for London services, which is where the current direct 1tph passes/calls. Most trains from Liverpool to Crewe/Manchester time in with London services.

 

[frodshamfella]

Im not sure many people from Merseyside would be keen on changing at Crewe even less so Manchester (going the wrong direction) for London. 2 tph would be nice to see, I thought London Midland had designs to operate a Liverpool/London service, they certainly advertise fare from London to Liverpool. I thinki their maybe some truth in Manchester capital of the north idea, Liverpool has suffered from loss of direct rail services in recent years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Arguably the hourly Chester 221 forms part of the catchment area.

 

[AlterEgo]

Arguably the hourly Chester 221 forms part of the catchment area.

This is true. The Chester services take a large portion of the Merseyside catchment, particularly people living on the Wirral. The Merseyrail services are very convenient, with one every 15 minutes these days (I think).

 

[JB1601]

I've used the Virgin service from Lime Street to London regularly for six years now...although I try and travel at less busy times I'm not sure there is the demand for two trains per hour. It'd be nice, but not convinced there wouldn't be lots of empty seats. There are some very friendly scouse crews in First though - often we end up on the last service of the day and they're quite happy to give us a few extra beers to keep us going if it means they don't have to keep coming up and down

The London Midland service would be nice though, then we'd have a choice like Birmingham travellers have. Virgin seem to be cutting back considerably on the number of advances available on Fri/Sun even when you book months ahead, so I'm considering getting the cheaper London Midland return and changing at Crewe. On weekdays it seems to take only a little over an hour more, unfortunately Sunday is over four hours which is a bit of a pain...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There will be more Liverpool trains next year (Dec?) when the 4 new Pendolinos are in service, but I don't think it will amount to an all-day 2tph.
The DfT are still thinking about how to add services to "Lancashire" and they may mix Liverpool and Preston/Lancaster (and possibly Blackpool after electrification) - it was all in the recent WC new franchise consultation.
Then there might be London-Warrington-Liverpool after electrification of the Chat Moss route.

All down to the ITT due next month and how the bids go, and then the ambitions of open access operators on top of that. Nothing to stop an OA operator adding services from April 2012 - but nobody has proposed any.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Im not sure many people from Merseyside would be keen on changing at Crewe even less so Manchester (going the wrong direction) for London. 2 tph would be nice to see, I thought London Midland had designs to operate a Liverpool/London service, they certainly advertise fare from London to Liverpool. I thinki their maybe some truth in Manchester capital of the north idea, Liverpool has suffered from loss of direct rail services in recent years.

Maybe not Manchester but the Liverpool service passes through Crewe anyway (some even make a stop). If not, change at Birmingham instead. There's not the demand for 2tph.

 

[Holly]

...
Maybe also Virgin Trains have a say regarding pathing and stock allocation, and they can make more money by sending another set elsewhere. ...

I think that is the crucial factor. Merseyside has suffered more urban decline than other places due to a number of factors. Thus the opportunities to gouge on fares is less; more than in other places there will be a high number of discounted fares and very few walk-on first class fares. Many pax rammed in but little profit.
The inflexibility of modern coaching stock formations makes it worse. Back in the day, the Liverpool Pullman was the only (?) Pullman formed with second class coaches. Where is Harry Perkins when we need him?

As to why Liverpool declined so much that is politics. A big factor is that the RAF did not give Liverpool Airport back until after switching the transatlantic passenger trade from sea to air was largely completed.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If not, change at Birmingham instead. There's not the demand for 2tph.

I suspect there would be demand for 2tph. I wouldn't want to advocate taking a 100 minute journey just to change for London, but it is the only way!

 

[kylemore]

I was really impressed with Liverpool (albeit on the basis of only one visit!). Certainly in the centre and on the waterfront it's got a "World class" major European city feel. This rosy view may have been coloured by several refreshments!
I like to think that the independent Liverpudlians consider that one train an hour to that other city is perfectly adequate to allow the Londoners to visit their city!

 

[swt_passenger]

...All down to the ITT due next month and how the bids go, and then the ambitions of open access operators on top of that. Nothing to stop an OA operator adding services from April 2012 - but nobody has proposed any.

Odd that, isn't it. Here are GC etc proposing services to just about every town in the north, yet they never mention Liverpool - Euston...

 

[ValleyLines142]

I suspect there would be demand for 2tph. I wouldn't want to advocate taking a 100 minute journey just to change for London, but it is the only way!

Actually NR says that the other option is to change at Crewe. I don't think it really matter whether it's a 100 minute journey to change for London.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Actually NR says that the other option is to change at Crewe. I don't think it really matter whether it's a 100 minute journey to change for London.

Aye forgot that, however, having to travel 100 minutes to Birmingham to change for London is, in my eyes, quite poor.

 

[Lampshade]

Odd that, isn't it. Here are GC etc proposing services to just about every town in the north, yet they never mention Liverpool - Euston...

Apart from Liverpool itself, I can't see where the demand is for further stops, apart from maybe St Helens which would either involve running via Wigan or using St Helens Junction which isn't exactly ideal. Liverpool - London fast anyone?

If they could run Birkenhead - London via Ellesmere Port it could work, although there can't be much spare capacity on Merseyrail to allow a London service.

 

[Holly]

If they could run Birkenhead - London via Ellesmere Port it could work, although there can't be much spare capacity on Merseyrail to allow a London service.

That would require a new chord (or a reverse) somewhere.

There would be demand for Hooton - London via Chester. That would not burden Merseyrail unduly, in fact provide Merseyrail connection opportunities. Part of this is that it would be easy to expand the car park at Hooton and there are plenty of platforms.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Another problem is stopping pattern.
The VHF service omits Nuneaton (much to their rage) and Crewe to give a fast service.
It still stops at Stafford, but Stafford also has 2tph LM service to Liverpool - overkill.
A second service would have to call at (say) Rugby and Nuneaton to flesh out the load, but this would then damage the LM Trent Valley service.

The London-Warrington-Liverpool route (post-electrification) would allow Glasgow services to be speeded up by omitting its Warrington call.
No intermediate calls Warrington-Liverpool unless they extend platforms.

My guess is that the Liverpool/Glasgow services will stay basically at 1tph (2tph in the peak) but with 11-car 390s to boost capacity, while the 3tph services (Manchester/Birmingham) stay 9-car.
Could be wrong of course...

 

[martinsh]

That would require a new chord (or a reverse) somewhere.

There would be demand for Hooton - London via Chester.

Not necessarily. You could do

Birkenhead - Hooton - Ellesmere Port - (Mouldsworth) - Greenbank - Sandbach - Crewe - London !! [ I assume Helsby - Mouldsworth is still mothballed ]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not necessarily. You could do
Birkenhead - Hooton - Ellesmere Port - (Mouldsworth) - Greenbank - Sandbach - Crewe - London !! [ I assume Helsby - Mouldsworth is still mothballed ]

Mouldsworth-Helsby is dismantled.

 

[tbtc]

Another problem is stopping pattern.
The VHF service omits Nuneaton (much to their rage) and Crewe to give a fast service.
It still stops at Stafford, but Stafford also has 2tph LM service to Liverpool - overkill.
A second service would have to call at (say) Rugby and Nuneaton to flesh out the load, but this would then damage the LM Trent Valley service.

The London-Warrington-Liverpool route (post-electrification) would allow Glasgow services to be speeded up by omitting its Warrington call.
No intermediate calls Warrington-Liverpool unless they extend platforms.

My guess is that the Liverpool/Glasgow services will stay basically at 1tph (2tph in the peak) but with 11-car 390s to boost capacity, while the 3tph services (Manchester/Birmingham) stay 9-car.
Could be wrong of course...

Two good points there.

Firstly, the speeding up of the Liverpool - London service means that Merseyside passengers aren't fighting for seats with those doing shorter journeys (Crewe/ Rugby/ Milton Keynes - London).

Secondly, the eleven car 390s to Liverpool compared to nine car to Manchester means that the difference (in terms of Standard Class seats) isn't anything like as big as 1:3.

Lastly, any LM service from London to Liverpool would be around three and a half hours in duration (on a 350), versus around two hours on a 390 for the Virgin service. Maybe you can flog a few £5 tickets to the student market, but it wouldn't be much use for 95% of London - Liverpool passengers

 

[martinsh]

Mouldsworth-Helsby is dismantled.

Yes, but the formation is intact, isn't it ? (i.e. it's not been built on)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lastly, any LM service from London to Liverpool would be around three and a half hours in duration (on a 350), versus around two hours on a 390 for the Virgin service. Maybe you can flog a few £5 tickets to the student market, but it wouldn't be much use for 95% of London - Liverpool passengers

You would be surprised how many people travel by LM all the way from Liverpool to London. Whenever I get off at Stafford (from Crewe) there's always a good few transferring to the xx21 LM to Euston.

 

[tgsh2011]

Yes, but the formation is intact, isn't it ? (i.e. it's not been built on)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You would be surprised how many people travel by LM all the way from Liverpool to London. Whenever I get off at Stafford (from Crewe) there's always a good few transferring to the xx21 LM to Euston.

If travelling Standard Class I actually prefer the LM trains! Yes, they take longer but are a hell of lot more comfortable and civilised!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I love 350s too!

Anyway, AFAIK 11-car Pendolinos will never run to Liverpool as there is insufficent room to extend the relevant platforms.