RMT threaten strike action on.........Thameslink

Cardiff123 · 23 Aug 2021

This week on RMT strike action bingo, they are threatening strike action on......Thameslink.
Of course this is a serious issue, and maybe I'm being naive, but it looks like Thameslink have taken all necessary steps to rectify the problem? Would RMT prefer the entire class 700 Thameslink fleet be taken out of service?

Rail workers threaten to strike over legionella toilet outbreak

RMT union calls for urgent meeting after ‘potentially lethal’ bacteria found in Thameslink trains

www.theguardian.com

Rail workers threaten to strike over legionella toilet outbreak
RMT union calls for urgent meeting after ‘potentially lethal’ bacteria found in Thameslink trains

A union has declared a dispute with a rail operator, claiming there has been a “potentially lethal” legionella outbreak on its trains.

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT) said it has prepared its members on Thameslink for strikes if urgent action is not taken to resolve the issue.

The company said a low level of legionella had been found in a small number of toilets, which had been drained and bleached.

The RMT said seven toilets on four trains had actionable traces of the bacteria, which can cause legionnaires’ disease.

The union claimed that, after the latest discovery, toilets were isolated, describing it as a “half-hearted and inadequate” approach, and called for an urgent meeting of the company’s safety committee.

The RMT general secretary, Mick Lynch, said: “RMT has been raising concerns for weeks now, and the latest cavalier approach from the company is pitifully inadequate and is an outright gamble with passenger and staff health.

“We have now declared a dispute and, be in no doubt, if we don’t get serious action we will ballot our members and do whatever is required to end this reckless approach to a potentially lethal situation on these increasingly busy trains.”

Rob Mullen, the train services director at Thameslink, said: “A very low level of legionella was found to be present during testing in a small number of our Thameslink Class 700 train toilets.

“While it is extremely unlikely this would cause any harm to passengers or colleagues, the toilets affected were immediately locked out of use.

“The trains were taken out of service and these toilets have now been drained, bleached and had their tanks completely refilled.

“There is no recorded case of anyone, ever, having contracted [legionnaires’ disease] from a train.”

The company added in a statement: “Legionella can potentially be spread through atomised water droplets in the air in enclosed spaces, but water in our toilets is gravity-fed, which makes this extremely unlikely and further lowers the already very low risk. However, as a precaution, we immediately closed the affected toilets and took these trains out of service.

“The toilets affected have been completely drained, bleached and re-filled to rectify this situation.”

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Bald Rick · 23 Aug 2021

I found this astonishing. Not least because RMT Members who work for Thameslink are rarely anywhere near on train toilets, unless they are a passenger.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

This seems beyond bizarre. Is there something missing from the story?

pompeyfan · 23 Aug 2021

Bald Rick said:
I found this astonishing. Not least because RMT Members who work for Thameslink are rarely anywhere near on train toilets, unless they are a passenger.

exactly my thought, and was going to create a thread because of it. ASLEF would be understandable if they declared a dispute but as RMT mainly represents guards, stations and revenue colleagues it’s a strange one. I guess it must be the RPI side which wouldn’t be service affecting.

Domh245 · 23 Aug 2021

It's odd for the RMT to expand their remit to cover passengers, but it's a noble cause I suppose?

I'm not sure about saying Thameslink have taken "All necessary steps" - they've addressed the handful of toilets where they've found legionella, but really the only way to address the issue properly would be implementing a flushing regime as part of depot/stabling checks. Of course, I expect that the only reason this has happened in the first place is the low passenger numbers (and possibly stock being stabled for extended periods of time?) and that under normal operation it wouldn't be a problem

py_megapixel · 23 Aug 2021

Does the RMT represent maintenance-depot staff? Those are probably the staff most likely to be close to the toilets in the course of their duties.

Backroom_boy · 23 Aug 2021

Yes it's really not clear.

Was the issue that the infected toilets were 'locked out of use' but the sets remained in service until they were fully cleaned?

Edit: no it's not that I've just realised Thameslink said they were taken out of service.

alangla · 23 Aug 2021

Domh245 said:
'm not sure about saying Thameslink have taken "All necessary steps" - they've addressed the handful of toilets where they've found legionella, but really the only way to address the issue properly would be implementing a flushing regime as part of depot/stabling checks.

It'll be interesting to know how often the toilets & sinks are swabbed for Legionella and presumably other nasties. Is this a regular thing across the whole railway or have GTR swabbed these trains in response to a particular issue?

yorksrob · 23 Aug 2021

This is bizarre.

I always thought legionella was more of a risk with air conditioning systems than water closets.

I notice that train loos can feel quite unventilated at times. Perhaps this may have an effect !

setdown · 23 Aug 2021

Sadly it's hardly good publicity for the railway, now being on the BBC News and Guardian website front pages.

Darandio · 23 Aug 2021

alangla said:
It'll be interesting to know how often the toilets & sinks are swabbed for Legionella and presumably other nasties. Is this a regular thing across the whole railway or have GTR swabbed these trains in response to a particular issue?

They all should have a legionella risk control strategy as part of the Health and Safety at Work act. The frequency of testing is often based on the risk derived from previous results.

PupCuff · 23 Aug 2021

It's a complete non issue in my mind - all TOCs will regularly test many, many trains a year for legionella, all TOCs will find a handful of cases where small amounts of legionella are present between cleaning cycles, and all TOCs will take appropriate action in such cases. It's nothing GTR specific and it's a risk of any water system whether on a train or elsewhere.

Drinking water systems generally come from a safer supply on depot, and are UV sterilised and boiled before use to kill off any remaining bacteria, though these are of course also subject to a proper disinfection cycle from time to time too.

py_megapixel · 23 Aug 2021

setdown said:
Sadly it's hardly good publicity for the railway, now being on the BBC News and Guardian website front pages.

The way the RMT have acted over the past few years, anyone would think they want to stigmatise and eventually kill off the industry their members rely on.
I am not ordinarily against unions but the actions specifically of the RMT do seem rather bizarre.

DanNCL · 23 Aug 2021

It's very rare I support industrial action on the rail network but if this is as serious as it's been made out to be then I would support it in this case. There should be strict measures in place to prevent legionella from being present on trains, and to get rid of it as soon as any is discovered. It sounds like from the article GTR haven't done this, although as usual in these cases we only have one side of the story, the truth could be different for all we know.

thejuggler · 23 Aug 2021

yorksrob said:
This is bizarre.

I always thought legionella was more of a risk with air conditioning systems than water closets.

I notice that train loos can feel quite unventilated at times. Perhaps this may have an effect !

More likely to be in the wc sink hot water supply. The water needs to be kept above 60 degrees, which then causes issues as that's above scalding temperature so needs warnings of the very hot water supply.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

yorksrob said:
This is bizarre.

I always thought legionella was more of a risk with air conditioning systems than water closets.

I notice that train loos can feel quite unventilated at times. Perhaps this may have an effect !

If it's present, it mostly infects by way of aerosols, which you get when you flush a toilet.

Darandio · 23 Aug 2021

Backroom_boy said:
Yes it's really not clear.

Was the issue that the infected toilets were 'locked out of use' but the sets remained in service until they were fully cleaned?

Edit: no it's not that I've just realised Thameslink said they were taken out of service.

The issue for the RMT seems to be when they were taken out of service. It's fairly obvious they wouldn't be tested whilst in service so traces of the disease were presumably found during testing whilst at the depot. Once found it seems the trains were put into service with the toilets locked out of use and then taken out of service and cleaned at a later time.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

Darandio said:
The issue for the RMT seems to be when they were taken out of service. It's fairly obvious they wouldn't be tested whilst in service so traces of the disease were presumably found during testing whilst at the depot. Once found it seems the trains were put into service with the toilets locked out of use and then taken out of service and cleaned at a later time.

I'm not entirely sure what risk they think this poses. Legionella mostly spreads to humans through aerosolisation, so when you flush a toilet or run a tap or shower. You aren't aerosolising water if it isn't being used.

Just sitting in the tank it'd be nicely replicating away, but it wouldn't be able to infect anybody.

Darandio · 23 Aug 2021

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not entirely sure what risk they think this poses. Legionella mostly spreads to humans through aerosolisation, so when you flush a toilet or run a tap or shower. You aren't aerosolising water if it isn't being used.

Indeed, little to no risk of the toilet is out of use. It seems their quarrel is with the train being put into service whilst the traces are on board regardless of the minimal risk.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

Darandio said:
Indeed, little to no risk of the toilet is out of use. It seems their quarrel is with the train being put into service whilst the traces are on board regardless of the minimal risk.

Perhaps they should just stick to safety matters they properly understand, and call a plumber in to advise on what is a plumbing issue that is only to do with trains because the plumbing happens to be on one.

WesternLancer · 23 Aug 2021

alangla said:
It'll be interesting to know how often the toilets & sinks are swabbed for Legionella and presumably other nasties. Is this a regular thing across the whole railway or have GTR swabbed these trains in response to a particular issue?

Given my journey on thameslink on saturday c5pm I'd be interested how often they are cleaned at all during service (given that cleaning on public transport is something the industry claims they are doing a lot more of these days) - filthy train interior litter everywhere, toilet pretty foul etc etc - never mind legionella... :frown:

Robertj21a · 23 Aug 2021

Totally ridiculous - just what I would expect from the RMT.

Bald Rick · 23 Aug 2021

DanNCL said:
There should be strict measures in place to prevent legionella from being present on trains, and to get rid of it as soon as any is discovered.

There are.

DanNCL said:
It sounds like from the article GTR haven't done this

“Sounds like”?

The concept of threatening industrial action over this is frankly ridiculous.

DanNCL · 23 Aug 2021

Bald Rick said:
There are.

“Sounds like”?

The concept of threatening industrial action over this is frankly ridiculous.

Locking a toilet out of use and then running the train in service with the legionella still present is not adequate. The air conditioning in those toilets will still be working and connected to the rest of train, spreading the aerosol particles from that toilet around the carriage. The only acceptable way to deal with legionella on trains is to get rid of it as soon as it is discovered, and for the train to remain out of service until that has been done.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

DanNCL said:
Locking a toilet out of use and then running the train in service with the legionella still present is not adequate. The air conditioning in those toilets will still be working and connected to the rest of train, spreading the aerosol particles from that toilet around the carriage. The only acceptable way to deal with legionella on trains is to get rid of it as soon as it is discovered, and for the train to remain out of service until that has been done.

No, it won't. There won't be any aerosol particles because the toilet won't be being flushed and the tap won't be being run. Water from the toilet tanks only aerosolises when the toilet is flushed or the tap is run.

If the aircon was infected then yes, but the aircon is not (so far as the claims go) infected, just the water tanks.

Also, the aircon is not connected in the way you suggest (i.e. it doesn't recirculate air from the toilets to the saloon); if it was don't you think every train would smell of toilets rather than just Voyagers?

DanNCL · 23 Aug 2021

Bletchleyite said:
No, it won't. There won't be any aerosol particles because the toilet won't be being flushed and the tap won't be being run. Water from the toilet tanks only aerosolises when the toilet is flushed or the tap is run.

If the aircon was infected then yes, but the aircon is not (so far as the claims go) infected, just the water tanks.

Also, the aircon is not connected in the way you suggest (i.e. it doesn't recirculate air from the toilets to the saloon); if it was don't you think every train would smell of toilets rather than just Voyagers?

And how many times has that toilet already been flushed with the legionella present before it’s discovered? The aerosol particles will already be present. Locking the toilet out of use is too little too late.

Domh245 · 23 Aug 2021

Bletchleyite said:
Also, the aircon is not connected in the way you suggest (i.e. it doesn't recirculate air from the toilets to the saloon); if it was don't you think every train would smell of toilets rather than just Voyagers?

Indeed, it's generally considered poor practice to take air from toilets and put it anywhere other than outside!

I suspect that the 700s just have an simple extract fan (hence the grille on the side of the carriage where the toilets are) straight out the side

DanNCL said:
And how many times has that toilet already been flushed with the legionella present before it’s discovered? The aerosol particles will already be present. Locking the toilet out of use is too little too late.

If Legionella has been discovered, it's probably been standing undisturbed for a while and so it's very unlikely to have been flushed any time recently

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2021

Domh245 said:
Indeed, it's generally considered poor practice to take air from toilets and put it anywhere other than outside!

I suspect that the 700s just have an simple extract fan (hence the grille on the side of the carriage where the toilets are) straight out the side

The general approach is negative pressure in the toilet (by an extractor fan straight out of the side as you say) so that non-smelly air is pulled in from the saloon, avoiding smells escaping.

There is no way it could get in the saloon other than on peoples' hands, and the saloon should have been cleaned as a matter of course anyway.

The general saloon aircon doesn't circulate air from the toilet - it would stink.

DanNCL said:
And how many times has that toilet already been flushed with the legionella present before it’s discovered? The aerosol particles will already be present. Locking the toilet out of use is too little too late.

It's really not. It's a proportionate response.

If they found it in the bog at a hospital, would they close the hospital and evacuate all the patients? No, of course not, they would lock the toilet pending cleaning.

ExRes · 23 Aug 2021

Domh245 said:
I suspect that the 700s just have an simple extract fan (hence the grille on the side of the carriage where the toilets are) straight out the side

Oh my God, does that mean those diabolical particles may have blown over everyone who has been standing on a platform? thank goodness for the RMT and Covid masks .........

Meanwhile are the RMT going to black all ships as there have been many cases of Legionella on them, perhaps the RMT also play a part in Hotels and shopping Malls?

The mind truly boggles at the thought of these people

Robertj21a · 23 Aug 2021

DanNCL said:
And how many times has that toilet already been flushed with the legionella present before it’s discovered? The aerosol particles will already be present. Locking the toilet out of use is too little too late.

Are you commenting from a point of recognised expertise ?

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Rail workers threaten to strike over legionella toilet outbreak