RMT threaten strike action on.........Thameslink

[alangla]

Meanwhile are the RMT going to black all ships as there have been many cases of Legionella on them, perhaps the RMT also play a part in Hotels and shopping Malls?

Don't give them any ideas. CalMac is enough of a mess as it is.

 

[Cardiff123]

Has it been established yet what workers RMT are representing on this issue? I assume Thameslink services operated by class 700s are DOO, so the drivers will be represented by ASLEF. So RMT are either representing on-board RPIs (if there are any) and/or depot servicing staff?
Obviously the trains can run without RPIs but not without being serviced.

 

[DanNCL]

If Legionella has been discovered, it's probably been standing undisturbed for a while and so it's very unlikely to have been flushed any time recently

In which case the damage has potentially already been done. That said cleaning the toilet as soon as the legionella is discovered wouldn’t make much difference.

It's really not. It's a proportionate response.

If they found it in the bog at a hospital, would they close the hospital and evacuate all the patients? No, of course not, they would lock the toilet pending cleaning.

The procedure in a hospital is to deal with it as soon as it’s discovered, not to put a do not use sign on the toilet in question and leave it for ages.

Are you commenting from a point of recognised expertise ?

I haven’t tried claiming to be an “expert”. I do however have a basic understanding of how legionella spreads, and therefore know that the best option is to deal with it as soon as it’s discovered.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed, little to no risk of the toilet is out of use. It seems their quarrel is with the train being put into service whilst the traces are on board regardless of the minimal risk.

I wonder if I can guess what just about every passenger would prefer... A train which, as far as I can understand from the comments here, is very safe, but which has the toilets locked out of use. Or no train at all?

 

[Horizon22]

In which case the damage has potentially already been done. That said cleaning the toilet as soon as the legionella is discovered wouldn’t make much difference.
The procedure in a hospital is to deal with it as soon as it’s discovered, not to put a do not use sign on the toilet in question and leave it for ages.

Directly from the article it says: “While it is extremely unlikely this would cause any harm to passengers or colleagues, the toilets affected were immediately locked out of use. Why have you assumed it was “left for ages”? Or they’re lying?

It doesn’t in all fairness state that once the train diagram had finished, it was then sent for a thorough clean. But personally, I would assume they would make requirements to do so at end of day, swapping diagrams if needed to be at the relevant depot with facilities.
I guess that’s the unknown - between what time was the case found and a) locking the toilet out of use and b) the toilet made safe at depot. And what length of time is acceptable. Just because 700001 was seen Monday and back out on Tuesday for example doesn’t mean it hasn’t been solved. But I would expect somewhere there’s a log of toilets LOOU.

Interstingky even the RMY admit in their releases it is “potentially lethal” which doesn’t make it the strongest case if GTR goes “well potentially yes, but actually no because we took X,Y,Z mitigations”

 

[Bald Rick]

Locking a toilet out of use and then running the train in service with the legionella still present is not adequate.

It is entirely adequate. And certainly not worth threatening strike action about.

This is what does the RMT no favours. Threatening a strike over (literally) microscopic issue, without any recourse to talks, or even (apparently) understanding what has happened.

Anyone would have thought the RMT are gearing up for a major fight with the industry, and looking for candidates to be Archduke Ferdinand.

 

[DanNCL]

Directly from the article it says: “While it is extremely unlikely this would cause any harm to passengers or colleagues, the toilets affected were immediately locked out of use. Why have you assumed it was “left for ages”? Or they’re lying?

It doesn’t in all fairness state that once the train diagram had finished, it was then sent for a thorough clean. But personally, I would assume they would make requirements to do so at end of day, swapping diagrams if needed to be at the relevant depot with facilities.

By left for ages I meant after it was locked out of use. I perhaps should have phrased it slightly better.

It is entirely adequate. And certainly not worth threatening strike action about.

This is what does the RMT no favours. Threatening a strike over (literally) microscopic issue, without any recourse to talks, or even (apparently) understanding what has happened.

Anyone would have thought the RMT are gearing up for a major fight with the industry, and looking for candidates to be Archduke Ferdinand.

It’s entirely inadequate. If someone were to catch Legionnaires as a result (which I accept is unlikely but it is still very much a possibility), it’ll be the the union’s employees that are ultimately handed the blame for it. I can see why they want to strike over it.

 

[Bald Rick]

If someone were to catch Legionnaires as a result (which I accept is unlikely but it is still very much a possibility)

It’s a possibility that someone could catch gastroenteritis from bacteria in a toilet that has been left in a less than clean condition by a previous passenger. When that is discovered by a member of staff, what is your opinion of what should happen:

1) toilet locked out of use until it completes its diagram at a depot
2) removed from service immediately.
3) threaten strike action

it’ll be the the union’s employees that are ultimately handed the blame for it

How could that be?

 

[DanNCL]

It’s a possibility that someone could catch gastroenteritis from bacteria in a toilet that has been left in a less than clean condition by a previous passenger. When that is discovered by a member of staff, what is your opinion of what should happen:

1) toilet locked out of use until it completes its diagram at a depot
2) removed from service immediately.
3) threaten strike action



How could that be?

1), followed by 3) if 1) is either not done or the unit is allowed back off depot in service without the correct cleaning being done, and it isn’t an isolated incident.

The issue here doesn’t seem to be that it’s happened once, but rather that it’s happened on multiple trains and therefore it doesn’t appear to be an isolated incident.

How could that be?

No doubt it’ll be the staff that get blamed for not cleaning the toilets properly. Whether they should actually get the blame or not is a different matter, but unfortunately that’ll be what happens in most cases, management will do anything to escape the blame themselves.

 

[coppercapped]

It is entirely adequate. And certainly not worth threatening strike action about.

This is what does the RMT no favours. Threatening a strike over (literally) microscopic issue, without any recourse to talks, or even (apparently) understanding what has happened.

Anyone would have thought the RMT are gearing up for a major fight with the industry, and looking for candidates to be Archduke Ferdinand.

One only has to look at the RMT's web site to realise that it has other considerations than simply acting as a trade union:

Objects
4. The objects of the Union shall be:-
.
.
.
(b) to work for the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society;

This is an acceptable aim for a political party, but I am not convinced that this should be one of the aims of a trades union which is trying to reach the best agreements for its members. On the contrary - such an aim tends to make using its members as cannon fodder acceptable to the leadership as ...

...you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

PS: Any candidates for the rôle of Ferdinand? And which town will be the stand-in for Sarajevo...?

 

[Bald Rick]

No doubt it’ll be the staff that get blamed for not cleaning the toilets properly. Whether they should actually get the blame or not is a different matter, but unfortunately that’ll be what happens in most cases, management will do anything to escape the blame themselves.

Rubbish. You can’t blame people for not cleaning toilets if they are locked out of use and still in service.

1), followed by 3) if 1) is either not done or the unit is allowed back off depot in service without the correct cleaning being done, and it isn’t an isolated incident.

But 1) is what happened.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No doubt it’ll be the staff that get blamed for not cleaning the toilets properly. Whether they should actually get the blame or not is a different matter, but unfortunately that’ll be what happens in most cases, management will do anything to escape the blame themselves.

So let's get this right... you're apparently supporting the threat of strike action that would disrupt tens of thousands of people's lives and very likely cause a lot of harm to the railways, on the basis of a small alleged possibility that union members might get blamed for something (even though they haven't actually been blamed for it, and you haven't cited any evidence that they would be - it's just an allegation you've made) ????

 

[Horizon22]

By left for ages I meant after it was locked out of use. I perhaps should have phrased it slightly better.

That’s what I mentioned in the rest of the post. As far as I can tell that’s an unknown. To me, it seems entirely reasonable it was locked out of use, sent to depot end of day, decontaminated and sent out clean the following morning.

That’s obviously best case scenario and neither you or I knows otherwise (although I would lean to quicker as a known H&S risk), but we could easily be talking less than 24H for all affected units.

Unless the RMT have data / facts to suggest otherwise are they not contemplating action about an issue which literally doesn’t exist now? Sure investigate how it went wrong in the 1st place and implement measures to prevent it in future but I really struggle to understand what on earth would be achieved with industrial action.

 

[Desiro123]

This seems a non-issue to me. We occasionally have trace amounts of legionella in our water tanks discovered by regular testing. When it's found, the unit is returned to the depot and the tank disinfected. It's not a big deal. You can't stop legionella from growing in stagnant (i.e. not flowing) water. I struggle to understand what it is they're striking over

 

[InOban]

AIUI, the risk arises not from the toilet itself but from the mixer taps, because they will in normal use never carry water which is hot enough to kill any bugs. The hospital procedure is that every hot water tap must be run once a day at maximum temperature (too hot for skin). That is sufficient. Legionella doesn't live in hot water tanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s entirely inadequate. If someone were to catch Legionnaires as a result (which I accept is unlikely but it is still very much a possibility), it’ll be the the union’s employees that are ultimately handed the blame for it. I can see why they want to strike over it.

If (and it's a huge if, in a "won't happen" sense) it does happen, it will be whoever made the decision that is handed the blame for it.

 

[Horizon22]

If (and it's a huge if, in a "won't happen" sense) it does happen, it will be whoever made the decision that is handed the blame for it.

Unless there’s wilful ignorance / disregard of known rules and management can show the employee has been given all required training, knew what tasks had to be completed and no concerns had previously been raised about their performance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless there’s wilful ignorance / disregard of known rules and management can show the employee has been given all required training, knew what tasks had to be completed and no concerns had previously been raised about their performance.

Yes, true, but Unions should not be protecting people from disciplinary action if they have genuinely committed misconduct. Their involvement should be limited to providing advice on, and ensuring the correct following of, the company's disciplinary procedures.

(Yes, I know)

 

[baza585]

Anyone got access to the holiday rota at RMT HQ?

Just wondering if most of the top brass are on holiday this week and a certain headcase is in charge?

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone got access to the holiday rota at RMT HQ?

Just wondering if most of the top brass are on holiday this week and a certain headcase is in charge?

 

[Phlip]

This week on RMT strike action bingo, they are threatening strike action on......Thameslink.
Of course this is a serious issue, and maybe I'm being naive, but it looks like Thameslink have taken all necessary steps to rectify the problem? Would RMT prefer the entire class 700 Thameslink fleet be taken out of service?

Rail workers threaten to strike over legionella toilet outbreak

RMT union calls for urgent meeting after ‘potentially lethal’ bacteria found in Thameslink trains

www.theguardian.com

I am a Microbiologist and have tested water for Legionella, including for train companies. Going by the article, GTR have done everything correctly: Have a programme in place to detect it and take the correct action to disinfect the affected pipe work.

 

[PupCuff]

No doubt it’ll be the staff that get blamed for not cleaning the toilets properly. Whether they should actually get the blame or not is a different matter, but unfortunately that’ll be what happens in most cases, management will do anything to escape the blame themselves.

What is there to blame? It isn't the staff or management's fault that legionella grows in standing water, indeed the fact that the legionella testing picked up the presence of bacteria shows that the processes for managing legionella are working, because the testing spotted it while it was at a low level and action could be taken. It's not feasible to drain and bleach every toilet tank every time its refilled, so there's always going to be periods where some water sits in a train tank for a period of time and is susceptible to buildup of bacteria.

This sort of thing happens frequently around the network and it's managed well. If there is a particular issue - which I find unlikely to be honest - it will be raised appropriately through the TOC's safety management processes.

 

[TheEdge]

I am a Microbiologist and have tested water for Legionella, including for train companies. Going by the article, GTR have done everything correctly: Have a programme in place to detect it and take the correct action to disinfect the affected pipe work.

I'm struggling quite what point the RMT is trying to make. I know early in lockdown GA decided there was a chance Legionella (pointing out it very clearly here it wasn't detected, this was pre-emptive action) could grow in the unused potable water tanks for the 745 buffets so they were all very quickly drained and sealed before being cleaned before buffet use began again. Its not like TOCs don't take this seriously.

 

[800001]

I am a Microbiologist and have tested water for Legionella, including for train companies. Going by the article, GTR have done everything correctly: Have a programme in place to detect it and take the correct action to disinfect the affected pipe work.

Exactly what you say. There will be set process in place for what to do when this happens. As long as they have followed the correct process then as far as I can tell it is a none story.

There will be several trains a day across the network each with a toilet locked out of use after traces have been found.

To me it shows GTR are doing what they should be, identified it, and dealt with it.

 

[Average_Driver]

I have direct H&S experience in legionella management and this is being blown massively out of proportion by the Union.

Given there are probably real battles around the corner this is a massive waste of time and reputation.

 

[Robert Ambler]

Legionella is fairly common and can develop in any standing water if the water temperature is between 25 and 50 degrees celsius. It actually comprises around 70 different bacterial strains and can develop in ponds and lakes and even slow moving streams and rivers if the weather is warm enough as well as man made systems. However it only represents a risk to health if infected water in aerosol form is breathed in. That is the reason all public buildings, workplaces, industrial plants, hotels, trains, ships, planes etc will have regular routine testing for Legionella if they have stored water systems and outlets for that water. It seems here that Thameslink's testing regime has identified a small number of cases which is to be expected from time to time and they seem to have taken appropriate action to deal with it.

One of the biggest potential contamination risks is actually in the home which all have some form of water storage and outlets for said water but rarely have any testing done (if any forum members routinely have their water systems at home tested please let us know). Think how many houses have a water storage tank in the roof space where on a sunny day the temperature will often be in the ideal range or don't heat the hot water to more than 50 degrees (which is after all too hot to wash your hands with). So it would seem more sensible for the RMT to recommend their members stay at work and avoid going home if they really want to protect them from Legionella!

 

[Bishopstone]

This is why you should always visit the toilet before leaving home or work. As fundamental a rule as not eating fish from a buffet or on an aeroplane.

 

[DanNCL]

Rubbish. You can’t blame people for not cleaning toilets if they are locked out of use and still in service.

No you can’t, but that doesn’t always stop employers from doing so. That said it does seem likes there’s key information missing here.

So let's get this right... you're apparently supporting the threat of strike action that would disrupt tens of thousands of people's lives and very likely cause a lot of harm to the railways, on the basis of a small alleged possibility that union members might get blamed for something (even though they haven't actually been blamed for it, and you haven't cited any evidence that they would be - it's just an allegation you've made) ????

If it is as serious as is being claimed where it is a risk to safety then yes I am.

Things are very clearly not adding up. If it’s as most posters on here are claiming then the RMT wouldn’t be threatening strike action as they’d know there was no case. Very clearly, the situation must be different from what is publicly known.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does indeed look like some information is missing, but that information isn't "a locked OOU toilet with legionella is a risk" because it isn't.

That said, the RMT are known for this sort of thing. If it was ASLEF who were proposing striking, I'd be listening.

Who are they striking on behalf of, i.e. who is being balloted? This doesn't seem clear. What is the problem for them specifically?

 

[Domh245]

Who are they striking on behalf of, i.e. who is being balloted? This doesn't seem clear. What is the problem for them specifically?

To be fair, nobody is being balloted yet, they've just declared a dispute, though it's still unclear who they would ballot (/who would be affected)

RMT declares dispute over Legionella outbreak

RAIL UNION RMT said today that it has declared a dispute over a potentially lethal Legionella outbreak on Thameslink trains and is prepared to ballot for strike action if GTR and Siemens don't take urgent action to resolve the crisis.

www.rmt.org.uk

RMT declares dispute over Legionella outbreak on Thameslink trains.

RAIL UNION RMT said today that it has declared a dispute over a potentially lethal Legionella outbreak on Thameslink trains and is prepared to ballot for strike action if GTR and Siemens don't take urgent action to resolve the crisis.


To date 7 toilets, on 4 trains have had identified actionable traces of legionella. The fourth unit was discovered on August 9th and the company advise they are removing it from traffic where 'reasonably practicable' and if it remains in service all that will happen is that the toilets will be isolated. RMT has described this half hearted and inadequate approach as gambling with the health of passengers and staff alike.

RMT's executive had met and the General Secretary has instructed to:

• Write to the company advising that a dispute situation now exists between our organisations.

• Demand an urgent Joint Safety Committee meeting be arranged to discuss the legionella contamination, the company response and its responsibilities under procedure agreement 2 and the associated codes of practice and regulations.

• Demand full disclosure, including live updates of the unit numbers of any units found to contain Legionella.

• Distribute the report from our Health and Safety Department to our Health and Safety Reps.

RMT General Secretary Mick Lynch said;

"RMT has been raising concerns over Legionella on the Siemens Thameslink fleet for weeks now and the latest cavalier approach from the company is pitifully inadequate and is an outright gamble with passenger and staff health.

"We have now declared a dispute and be in no doubt if we don't get serious action we will ballot our members and do whatever is required to end this reckless approach to a potentially lethal situation on these increasingly busy trains."‎