frodshamfella
Established Member
So many false starts
I agree with you, but the alternatives are not much better.
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TFW Liverpool-Cardiff
- Thread starter Steveswan10
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I agree with you, but the alternatives are not much better.
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Steveswan10
Member
Just wondering if it was ever considered joining the Holyhead to Cardiff with the new (when it eventually starts) Liverpool to Cardiff at Chester (using 3 car units on both) that way you would'nt need the extra paths and also give extra capacity between Cardiff and Shrewsbury/chester that having 6 coaches would bring (and dare I say extend all Holyhead/Liverpool Services to Swansea and all Manchesters to Camarthen)
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
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- 2,199
Far too sensible an idea…!
Steveswan10
Member
Lol well I had an idea that proberly would be too much of a sensible idea
Doesn't nessessarly deliver the same frequency on some sections of route however, although you still could but it would require more units. The Liverpool to Cardiff is/was intended to go through to Shrewsbury on the hours it doesn't go to Cardiff to provide a 2nd train per hour via Wrexham, I think the intention is to have 1tph all stops and the other all stations. Can't quite remember exactly how it was proposed however, not that that is nessessarly relevant now.
I think platform capacity at Chester would rule it out at the moment. This movement would need occupy one of the through platforms for a good many minutes. There's also the risk, as with any splitting and joining operation, that you import delays from one service into the other.
Jamesrob637
Established Member
- Joined
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What's the justification? Was bad enough not reinstating it this week!
This is why I was saying TfW should not operate this service. It needs to be operated by an English operator because they have to answer to the DfT, and can be challenged by English MPs and English voters. Unfortunately, we have unbalanced devolution in the UK. so TfW are answerable to the Welsh government and not to the DfT and not to MPs or voters in England. Basically TfW don't care two hoots about the services they run in England. If they want to use the rolling stock for S.Wales Metro services instead, they will and nobody can touch them. (Before anybody objects, it is not the same when English train operators run services in Wales. Welsh passengers do have their MPs in Westminster and the English operator has to answer to them.) Who could operate this service, then? I would strip TfW of this service and also Chester-Crewe and the Crewe-Shrewsbury locals, transfer the rolling stock and the employees and the management of the stations to London Northwestern who run other 'secondary' services on WCML tracks.
Better that they dont reinstate it and then end up cancelling half of them due to a shortage of trains due to delays with more 197s being accepted/other trains being out of service for repairs etc.
Also i dont agree with it moving from TFW - the plan is to extend the Liverpool-Chester to North Wales and/or Cardiff eventually.
Also i dont agree with it moving from TFW - the plan is to extend the Liverpool-Chester to North Wales and/or Cardiff eventually.
FrodshamJnct
Established Member
And that would take more time in terms of transfers (if it were possible as you suggest) of rolling stock and then training on traction and route knowledge etc, surely it’s more about holding TfW to account properly and ensuring services happen? That’s even if LNWR were up for it.
I invite you to see how that is going for the people of Huddersfield who have endured an awful service over the last year or so. The grass isn't greener.
They aren't robbing units from the Liverpool-Chester services to strengthen the Valleys, the units are parked in sidings in various states of disrepair. I heard a figure of 17 197s out of traffic at the moment.
My local MP was unimpressed when Avanti removed the 04:48 Holyhead-Euston as it was the only one that arrived in London before 9am. Clearly that accountability hasn't worked very well as it still hasn't been reinstated.
Which makes no operational sense, Chester-Crewe shuttles provide ready route knowledge for diverting trains when either one of the routes north from Shrewsbury is closed. TfW do a much better job of running between Chester and Crewe than Avanti do, how's that for accountability to English politicians? Looking at Recent Train Times I can't see any shuttle with a cancellation rate of more than 6% whereas Avanti's 20:32 almost gets cancelled more often than it runs.
Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers entirely duplicate the route of Marches services so the training cost is nil, and you want to have another operator train its crews on the route?
You want LNW to maintain a microfleet of diesel units where exactly? And the rolling stock you're proposing to transfer over wouldn't be the same units currently awaiting repairs would they? LNW's record on services going out of Lime Street is no better than TfW's. There have been plenty of occasions where the TfW service has been the first one to run on the route for over an hour, after cancellations by both LNW and Avanti.
The Liverpool - Chester service isn't worth running as a self-contained operation, the route is slower than Merseyrail. The way that it will become viable is when it becomes a through service to destinations within Wales. That won't happen if you transfer it to LNW.
You're making lots of valid points, but you haven't addressed the central lack of accountability. How are local campaigners in England supposed to address issues with TfW when TfW are only answerable to the Welsh government?
There's not really much accountability with any other operator either.
frodshamfella
Established Member
My two go to stations for travelling to Liverpool is Frodsham or Acton Bridge. Even though Acton Bridge is slightly closer, I use Frodsham as TFW service is more reliable, albeit still infrequent. In addition the fare from Acton Bridge is far higher. The TFW service from Liverpool continues to fall short of its full potential, while it is not continuing into Wales as promised.
You can hold TFW to account as much as you like, it won't magic up units to operate the service.
What do you propose they do? Remove the already limited capacity from long established and much busier routes such as North Wales to Manchester and South Wales to Manchester?
As with everything with TFW, the grand plans are there. The execution of those plans in such a short period of time has left them failing to deliver things on time. Once all the 197 fleet is in then things will be in a much better place.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
I think what winds me up about it is: we all know how vocal Wales would be if an English operator operated services (and managed Welsh stations on the route) in Wales too. It shouldn't be a one-way street, so I think my opposition to it is more out of principle than anything.
Do you live there, because having been in Cardiff for three years now, it certainly doesn't feel like it.
I suppose it's as Krokodil said upthread, the grass isn't always greener.
frodshamfella
Established Member
The TFw service as it is Chester to Liverpool is worth running, i use it often from Frodsham and its well supported, even with the rubbish service level. The Merseyrail service is useless to me for getting to the city, plus the TFw route serves the airport. What is needed asap, is hourly as it was when it started, and to go beyond Chester, as in all the publicity TFW promoted.
FrodshamJnct
Established Member
Just had a follow up post to me on X saying they’re planning to reintroduce the hourly from 5th Feb. We shall see.
As somebody who works the line regularly - I believe dishing it off to an English TOC is not the answer. A large number of the passengers that get on in Chester have come from a connecting service originating from Cardiff/Shrewsbury or Holyhead/Llandudno service. The same coming the other way, plenty heading that way who have to change in Chester. If it was direct into Wales I suspect it would be quite successful. Liverpool South Parkway is quite a popular one with tickets to/from Wales too.
Are you saying that because the service operates in Wales, or might do, that it must be run by the Welsh operator?
No, I'm saying it would be more convenient for passengers if it were to stay under TFW as a large number of them would then not need to change at Chester if/when the direct Liverpool-North/South Wales services come into play.
Crewing would be easier as less training required - the North Wales Coast is already worked by all Chester, Llandudno Jn and Holyhead crews. Chester to Shrewsbury is already worked by all Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury and some Cardiff crews - meaning next to no route training is required and the extensions would be a case of rostering staff, sorting paths, allocating units etc (any technicalities regarding crossings and what not earlier in thread would affect any operator of course).
I can see the logic behind saying the service is fully in England, give it to an English TOC. Realistically the alternative would be Northern who are no better, the Chester-Leeds services regularly cancelled, Ellesmere Port to Helsby barely runs at all. I think some Northern crews already sign Liverpool-Chester via Halton Curve (happy to be corrected) but obviously if they were to run the extended versions into Wales you would be talking a huge undertaking for crew training etc.
I couldn't care less about an English Welsh divide - as long as a train runs that's all that matters, but the easiest option for Direct Liverpool to Wales services would be TFW as the whole operation is already worked by them, things just need linking up.
The long term aspiration for services from North and South Wales to join up to work into Liverpool. That changes the dynamics of how the route will work operationally. Northern and Merseyrail don't operate it. That only leaves Avanti in North Wales who will unlikely want to run such a route and the only possible operator from South Wales would be TFW anyway. So the only suitable operator would be TFW, who just so happen to be a Welsh operator who run services in Wales.
The peak is busy (but not anywhere near full) and the service is popular on Saturdays. Otherwise there are plenty of services carting around fresh air. A handful of people from Frodsham isn't enough on its own to justify service in ots current state as a self-contained shuttle. Anyone connecting at Chester is more likely to use Merseyrail, partly because of the frequency, and partly because it's quicker. Through services to Llandudno and Cardiff will change this situation drastically and make the service worth running.
You're not seriously suggesting that the Liverpool to Cardiff/Llandudno service should be run by an operator who currently only sign the first 12 miles (plus Shrewsbury station) rather than the operator who has depots and route knowledge covering the remaining 50/150 miles? How are you going to do that efficiently? The modern railway is fragmented enough already.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
TfW operates services in England under DfT purview, including frequencies and performance levels, just as it has been since the ATW franchise was let in 2003 (by the Westminster SRA with WG input).
English MPs have a route via the DfT to the TOC owner (TfW the WG agency).
The Liverpool service was hatched in the coalition period as a joint Merseytravel/WG/Network Rail project under the Liverpool City Region deal done by George Osborne, which funded the Halton Curve reopening and the initial ATW train service to Chester.
Northern were at the time in a hopeless position to operate the service, and WG saw it as the first step to extension into Wales (it already reaches Wrexham).
Neither LM/LNR or MR ever had any interest in a Liverpool-Chester DMU service.
Operated with 197s it works well with TfW's fleet plans - they are still not through the transition period yet, though.
TfW's northern operation is significant and Chester/Shrewsbury are major revenue generators for them.
The 197 fleet, like the 175s before them, is based in Chester which last time I looked was in England.
Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham are key to the TfW network, not some awkward foreign branch lines as you seem to suggest.
TfW has its faults and has been low on performance for too long, but I think their hearts are in the right place.
Currently they are also not in dispute with ASLEF, which some would say was a benefit compared to the DfT TOCs.
I agree there are times when TfW appears to be a Welsh national entity serving parochial Welsh interests, but it isn't really.
There are UK parliamentary committees which discuss such cross-border matters, it's not wholly a Cardiff Bay operation.
And Network Rail is not devolved to the WG, not even to the extent that Scotland is.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Fingers crossed......again
I have friends from Wales who use it to reach Liverpool Airport, alighting at South Parkway
Sorry don't agree, I use it often and not in the peaks, and it's popular, in the relatively short time the service has returned even with the poor service availability. Definitely more than a handful get on at Frodsham,.can vouch for that. Saturdays its particularly busy, standing at times. Undoubtedly it will continue to grow once it finally ventures beyond Chester as was planned.
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I work it often. It irks when a three car is diagrammed with a dozen or so passengers on in the middle of the day (so we're not talking 6am when you'd expect things to be quiet) while the Manchester - Llandudno services are formed of two-car units so full that they leave passengers behind - not merely "standing at times". It currently doesn't tend to fill up until Runcorn and those passengers have alternative services available to them.
Outside Saturdays and a couple of peak trains the service has a fraction of the value it would have if it ran through to destinations beyond Chester.
When planning a journey from North Wales to Liverpool Lime Street, using Llandudno Junction as the start point, all connections at Chester are to Merseyrail services. So there's probably little connecting passengers for the TFW service. Once the fully proposed service is in then there will probably be a decent increase in passenger numbers.