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London Overground line names announced

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bramling

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I don't think the lines needed names to begin with - numbers or letters would have been just fine - but we are where we are.


'Lioness' and 'Suffragette' are truly terrible names for railway lines, however laudable the organisations they get their name from.

'Liberty' strikes me as implying a grandiose and important/exciting line - ie. the exact opposite of the Romford-Upminster shuttle. (At least I now know why one of the shopping centres in Romford is called the 'Liberty'!)

'Weaver' is ok I guess, but the name is already used by one of the most important and well-known junctions on the national network, so personally I'd rather they'd used something else.

My first thought with Weaver is that utterly cringeworthy and excruciating clip of the council meeting in Handforth, which itself sums up perfectly everything that’s wrong with local government in this country, and the awful people drawn towards it. So perhaps this is trying to tell us something?!
 
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AndrewP

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I think it was about time that the lines got different colours and names but they are not a great selection in my view and using the traditional names such as North London Line would have been much better in my view. A few comments based on my perceptions:
  • Mildmay Line - short and easy to say goes past Mildmay Park - kind of works
  • Windrush Line - ok but will likely become the windy line before long. People were connected with much more than Brixton so the lack of a station there is not an issue
  • Liberty Line - so contrived - something more connected with the local geography would be better
  • Lioness Line - oh dear - ignores the men's team that won the more significant world cup in 1966 - something that covered the lion as a species would be a better idea
  • Suffragette Line - completely ignores the Suffragists who arguably achieved more but why here? It will always be the Goblin to me. This is also a gift to the press in the event of delays as it will become the suffering line or similar
  • Weaver Line - nice idea to celebrate the trades of the area but there is more than weaving (not sure what though)
I hope there are some changes but shame there has been no consultation
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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'Marmay' is how members of my dad's family always pronounced it, and they were from neighbouring Dalston. I've always taken it to be the correct pronunciation; it will grate on my ears if it's pronounced 'Mild May' over the station tannoys.
"Marmay" is Mildmay with a local accent. You can't rightfully take issue with those who don't falsify that accent, really.
Just like you wouldn't expect the King to refer to Newcastle as "New-CASSEL" even if locals there do.
 

jon81uk

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The Elizabeth line is an entirely new line, lines like East London line and North London line are old lines with new names plastered on them
Its not an entirely new line, the section from Stratford to Shenfield is very old. As is the Heathrow Connect section and the Paddington to Reading section is mainly old too.
 

NorthKent1989

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Its not an entirely new line, the section from Stratford to Shenfield is very old. As is the Heathrow Connect section and the Paddington to Reading section is mainly old too.

Yes but they couldn’t call it the Shenfield/Heathrow/Reading line, the core that links the two lines is new
 

greyman42

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Unlike, say, Trafalgar Square or Waterloo? :{
What is wrong with Trafalgar Square and Waterloo?

Yes, stop being silly, you know nobody would defend any of those except mabye Churchill
Why would it be a "maybe" for Churchill. I would be proud to have one of the lines called the Churchill line.
Also i would not see anything wrong with one being called "Thatcher".
 
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dcsprior

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My thoughts:
  • Mildmay Line is a bad idea from a pronunciation PoV as if you're not familiar it's not obvious how you pronounce it (mild-may or milled-may?) I would suggest renaming to Olympic line
  • Lioness Line is also hard to pronounce as it's a tongue-twister. I saw someone on twitter suggest Watson Line as a portmanteau of WATford-euStON, and I like that suggestion.
  • I believe the Suffragette Line already had a commonly-used name, so would leave it called The Goblin
  • The Weaver Line should really be coloured/named as 2 lines, given that only 3 of the 25 stations are on both branches. I'd suggest reusing the Sufragette Line name for one half of it.
 

Peter Sarf

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What a waste of money and effort. Many of those lines already have a name people are familiar with so why change it. In the case of the North London Line and East London Line those geographically explain (roughly) where they are - which is helpful. Now I will have to learn all over again. A few needed names like the ones out of Liverpool Street but Weaver - is that a large canal near Liverpool ?. That is going to fool a few searches !. Essentially it is a vanity project.
 

Acton1991

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The example videos show the new Bakerloo/Central Male voice on the Overground. They’re not going to replace Emma Hignett on board the trains surely? I’m aware Anne has come for her on the platforms.
Do they need to include 'London Overground' in the announcements when you're actually onboard? Seems a bit OTT. Surely something along the lines of "This is a Mildmay line service to Richmond. The next station is Kew Gardens" should suffice
 

dcsprior

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What a waste of money and effort. Many of those lines already have a name people are familiar with so why change it.

While they may have had names in everyday usage, they didn't on signs/maps/recorded announcements/etc. And it's changing those which is what will cost money - so the cost would still have been there to use those existing names

In the case of the North London Line and East London Line those geographically explain (roughly) where they are - which is helpful.

"roughly" is doing a lot of work there. The NLL goes to Richmond, the ELL to Croydon.

Essentially it is a vanity project.

I think giving them individual names is sensible. And once you've decided to do that, the cost doesn't really change whatever you call them.
 

PGAT

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Do they need to include 'London Overground' in the announcements when you're actually onboard? Seems a bit OTT. Surely something along the lines of "This is a Mildmay line service to Richmond. The next station is Kew Gardens" should suffice
The video is just for demonstrative purposes and obviously subject to change
 

NorthKent1989

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Similarly on the Windrush line there was new track to link together existing older sections.

The only new bit is the section between Whitechapel and Shoreditch High Street, but even so Windrush is still a stupid name, most will refer to these lines by their older and more sensible names that are there to pander to the feelings of the woke
 

Peter Sarf

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The only new bit is the section between Whitechapel and Shoreditch High Street, but even so Windrush is still a stupid name, most will refer to these lines by their older and more sensible names that are there to pander to the feelings of the woke
One day there will be a "Woke" line.
 

announcements

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My thoughts:
  • Mildmay Line is a bad idea from a pronunciation PoV as if you're not familiar it's not obvious how you pronounce it (mild-may or milled-may?) I would suggest renaming to Olympic line
I've seen this suggested a few times now over the last 24 hours and I think it is a very sensible idea. The shape of the line also mirrors the trajectory of a javelin being thrown from Richmond to Stratford! But on a more serious note, it is a darn lot better than Mildmay, which many feel doesn't roll off the tongue or even make sense from a geographic standpoint. However, given these ideas have been presented as final rather than formative (i.e. we are not in a public consultation phase), it is unlikely any U turn will be made on this name and to do so would appear cruel.
  • I believe the Suffragette Line already had a commonly-used name, so would leave it called The Goblin
It just has such horrible connotations of one suffering every time one uses the line in question. Not the best choice. Nevertheless, the Goblin line would be tautological and therefore should be avoided. I was kind enough to provide the letter G in honour of the Goblin in my neutral lettering proposal:

... G-Goblin

  • The Weaver Line should really be coloured/named as 2 lines, given that only 3 of the 25 stations are on both branches.
You make a very good point - they are two separate lines, so the proposed arrangement does little to simplify this. As commented on before, there still some other colours up for grabs such as lavender and, now to think of it, chartreuse. The latter was earmarked as the colour for Crossrail 2 but we won't be seeing that any time soon!
 

norbitonflyer

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My thoughts:
  • Mildmay Line is a bad idea from a pronunciation PoV as if you're not familiar it's not obvious how you pronounce it (mild-may or milled-may?) I would suggest renaming to Olympic line
Won't happen. The International Olympic Commission are very hot on anyone using the O word without their authority. Olympia was there first, so gets away with it.
  • Lioness Line is also hard to pronounce as it's a tongue-twister. I saw someone on twitter suggest Watson Line as a portmanteau of WATford-euStON, and I like that suggestion
I've always called it the Wat-Eus line....... And the new name still sounds like "Line S" to me
  • The Weaver Line should really be coloured/named as 2 lines, given that only 3 of the 25 stations are on both branches.
Quite agree. Especially as the Chingford trains skip-stop some of the intermediate stations - Piccadilly / District, or Met/Jubilee style.
 

Enthusiast

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No, but it does run near Mildmay Park.
Of the six, this is probably the least geographically accurate (as mentioned) and possibly the least relevant.

The hospital of that name has never been anywhere near Mildmay Park. It took its name from that area because its work was originally set up by the vicar of St Jude's Church and his wife, the church being located in Mildmay Park. This is not an open space but is a thoroughfare stretching from Newington Green to Ball's pond Road. The road, together with the church, was built in the 1840s when part of the Mildmay Estate was leased for housing at the time the North London Railway was under construction. The "Mildmay Mission", which the work of the church became known as, opened its first medical centre during a cholera outbreak in the East London slums. This was located in Bethnal Green, near to the current Mildmay Hospital.

It is probable that only people who live in that immediate area know of Mildmay Park and not many of them would be aware that the building which sat on the railway bridge crossing the "Windrush" and "Mildmay" lines was in fact Mildmay Park station, which closed in 1934. Some may have known it as John Holton's vehicle body repair shop, which operated from the substantial former station building from the late 1950s until shortly before it was demolished in the early 1980s. Whilst it's said upthread that few people will have heard of Mildmay Park I would fancy that not many more have ever heard of the hospital.

I feel insufficient thought went into the naming of the Mildmay Line. It seems to me that whoever conducted this exercise saw the hospital and decided to fit one of the six lines to it, come what may. Their cause may have been better served if they'd at least chosen one of the two lines which pass close by.
...and that Windrush actually rushes through Brixton without stopping.
To be pedantic it doesn't actually rush through, but more glides over on the girder bridge which crosses the platforms at Brixton Station. Despite being immediately above the platforms which serve the trains to Herne Hill and beyond, there are no platforms on the bridge which takes the tracks towards Denmark Hill.
..one person gets it! The level of historical ignorance and confusion on this thread is shocking.

The only one which makes any sense is the 'Weaver' Line which has a nod to the historic industry in that area.
The ignorance is not really that shocking. I imagine few Londoners - especially recent arrivals - can tell you much about the Huguenots and I imagine even fewer know very much about their weaving activities. In fact, the BBC article on the lines' names says this about the Weaver Line:

"With stops including Liverpool Street, Spitalfields, Bethnal Green and Hackney, the route travels through several areas of London known for their importance in the textile trade."

Whilst TfL's own article on the reasoning behind the names certainly mention's London's weaving industry, the BBC seems a little light on their history. Leaving aside there is no station by the name of Spitalfields, the link from that description makes no mention of weaving at all but concentrates entirely on garment making and the fashion industry. This is unsurprising because I believe the weaving industry in London's East End began to decline in the early 1800s and was all but finished soon after the middle of that century. I don't believe there has been much "weaving" taking place in that part of London ever since.

Of course the fashion trade and garment making in particular flourished in the East End and particularly along the route of the Weaver Line between Bethnal Green, Hackney and Dalston. Many immigrant populations were prominent in that trade, especially Jewish people, but also Irish and more recently, Bangladeshis, who brought their garment making skills to London. I suppose the "Rag Trade" line doesn't carry quite the same gravitas!
 

yorksrob

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I've seen this suggested a few times now over the last 24 hours and I think it is a very sensible idea. The shape of the line also mirrors the trajectory of a javelin being thrown from Richmond to Stratford! But on a more serious note, it is a darn lot better than Mildmay, which many feel doesn't roll off the tongue or even make sense from a geographic standpoint. However, given these ideas have been presented as final rather than formative (i.e. we are not in a public consultation phase), it is unlikely any U turn will be made on this name and to do so would appear cruel.

It just has such horrible connotations of one suffering every time one uses the line in question. Not the best choice. Nevertheless, the Goblin line would be tautological and therefore should be avoided. I was kind enough to provide the letter G in honour of the Goblin in my neutral lettering proposal:




You make a very good point - they are two separate lines, so the proposed arrangement does little to simplify this. As commented on before, there still some other colours up for grabs such as lavender and, now to think of it, chartreuse. The latter was earmarked as the colour for Crossrail 2 but we won't be seeing that any time soon!

Absolutely not. The "Goblin" line is a name that developed organically and as such should be adopted rather than overlaid.
 

Bedpan

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Couldn't they have been named after shapes in the same way the circle line is? Alternatively animals could have been fun and memorable.
Thinking of that, the Northern line had an arguably confusing name bearing in mind that it runs further south than any other underground line. Maybe it should be renamed the Oval Line after one of the stations it passes through.
 

CBlue

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It'd be interesting to see how many different shades of puce are present on those getting angry in this thread so far.
 

thomalex

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So what’s the reason for the Weaver line not being 2 separate lines?

It looks particularly confusing at Hackney Central for instance where 2 instances of Weaver line heading to Liverpool Street stop at different stations.
 

announcements

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Absolutely not. The "Goblin" line is a name that developed organically and as such should be adopted rather than overlaid.
But how common is it for the general public to say "goblin" versus railway enthusiasts? Do people who live on that route call it the "Goblin"? I am asking out of ignorance here, not trying to be difficult.

That question aside, my point about not using Goblin was merely to do with tautology: "Goblin line" doesn't feel right.

So what’s the reason for the Weaver line not being 2 separate lines?

It looks particularly confusing at Hackney Central for instance where 2 instances of Weaver line heading to Liverpool Street stop at different stations.

So much for simplification! I completely agree. If they are going through the expense of updating all the maps etc, they might as well create a 7th line by splitting the Weaver.
 
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yorksrob

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But how common is it for the general public to say "goblin" versus railway enthusiasts? Do people who live on that route call it the "Goblin"? I am asking out of ignorance here, not trying to be difficult.

My beef with Goblin is purely on the tautology side of things: "Goblin line" doesn't feel right.



So much for simplification! I completely agree. If they are going through the expense of updating all the maps etc, they might as well create a 7th line by splitting the Weaver.

As I mentioned earlier, my "normal" friends have used the name. And it trips off the tongue quite nicely !
 

43066

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This, incidentally, is also one of the reasons I don’t like the name “Elizabeth Line”.

It’s named after the country’s longest reigning monarch, who died around the time the line was opened. That seems reasonable enough, and is free from political connotation (the fact the late queen had passed away actually helps in that respect, as she’s now a historical figure).

I preferred Crossrail simply because its catchier.

As I mentioned earlier, my "normal" friends have used the name. And it trips off the tongue quite nicely !

Same here.
 

TAS

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As I mentioned earlier, my "normal" friends have used the name. And it trips off the tongue quite nicely !
The user group seem not to like it however:
Said Barking-Gospel Oak Rail User Group Chair, Graham Larkbey "The list includes some interesting and imaginative choices, and we are pleased to be commemorating the courageous, vital and self-sacrificing campaigning of the suffragettes towards creating a better and more equitable society. Some of us are also relieved that TfL did not saddle us with "The Goblin Line" - the unofficial nickname it acquired in the 90s!".
 

infobleep

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But less informative because numbers do not show where a line actually serves! Whereas North London Line, in particular, describes very well where the line (mostly) goes, and has been in use for decades.



Yes.



Perhaps, perhaps not, but the new name is not used by anyone!
The goblin line doesn't describe where it goes.

When travelling on the Overground I would probably either refer to the West London Line or more likely just Overground and perhaps name the station I was going to.

When I use to catch the Southern service to Harrow & Wealdstone, some colleagues called it the magic bus so that name stuck too.

The magic bus only apply to Southern services though. The reason being they couldn't believe such a useful service could run from East Croydon.

I do agree numbering them could have worked but they couldn't use O as that is too confusing with 0, so it would have had to be something else. G perhaps for ground. So G1, G2 etc.

As for the Liberty Line, Reading the description given, which the BBC just did a copy and paste from it seems, I was left none the wiser as to what thy were on about regarding Havering having their own liberty and freedoms.

I felt a longer history lesson was required for that one. I understood the rest ok but that one was more obscure. Yes I could have looked it up but then I could have done that with the other five but didn't need to as the explanation was enough. This one wasn't.

With the Windrush Line, could they add a stop or build a station in Btixton? Seems a shame for a line that represents Windrish to ignore its epicentre.
 

Basil Jet

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So what’s the reason for the Weaver line not being 2 separate lines?

It looks particularly confusing at Hackney Central for instance where 2 instances of Weaver line heading to Liverpool Street stop at different stations.
... and also on the Victoria Line, where the current line guide has the majority of the stations north of Warren Street interchanging with "Overground", but the new one will have Walthamstow and Seven Sisters both interchanging with "Weaver Line" without telling you which one you should use for which branch.
 
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