How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?

43096 · 18 Feb 2024

Gwr12345 said:
Apparently the Keighley and Worth Valley add-on ticket for arriving by train is being discontinued by the steam gala, which I think is a step backwards.

That's only if you look at it from a public transport perspective.

What really matters is revenue to the railway. If they've made a calculation that the add-on element doesn't attract much new business and means people who would visit anyway generate less revenue, then it is the right call.

First and foremost the railway must do what it is right for their business - they're not there to try and change people's minds about how to travel. That is particularly so during the current squeeze on peoples' incomes - it's a day out, not a necessity to travel on preserved railways. Cost of the whole day is important and public transport is never likely to be a winner for visitors such as families due to cost and ease of use.

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30907 · 18 Feb 2024

Gwr12345 said:
Apparently the Keighley and Worth Valley add-on ticket for arriving by train is being discontinued by the steam gala, which I think is a step backwards.

Source?
Do you mean "for the Steam Gala"? If so, it has recently only been valid for a return trip on Event days (normally it is a discounted Day Rover) so isn't good value unless you are a Railcard holder, and the restriction leads to some confusion.
.

Gwr12345 · 18 Feb 2024

30907 said:
Source?
Do you mean "for the Steam Gala"? If so, it has recently only been valid for a return trip on Event days (normally it is a discounted Day Rover) so isn't good value unless you are a Railcard holder, and the restriction leads to some confusion.
.

An email from the KWVR admin team when I enquired about it's validity for the steam gala.

Hi, the tickets will be permanently withdrawn by the time of the gala

30907 · 18 Feb 2024

Gwr12345 said:
An email from the KWVR admin team when I enquired about it's validity for the steam gala.

Shame then, though I reckon from experience bookings are +/- 1 per.day.

Trainlog · 28 Feb 2024

Just read that the KESR will be running a vintage bus service from Headcorn to Tenterden during the diesel gala

.

Kent and East Sussex confirms half centenary Diesel Gala line-up

As final touches are put to celebrations marking the 50th anniversary of Kent and East Sussex Railway, the line-up for its Diesel Gala has been announced.

www.railadvent.co.uk

peteb · 1 Mar 2024

For those heritage railways with good adjacent rail or bus links there should be a policy of offering through ticketing either by purchase from their own website or from the national rail/bus operators websites.

Also much more consideration could be given to those wishing to visit a heritage railway as part of a round trip: a good example is the Ffestiniog where in theory you can arrive by train one end travel one way and continue a journey from the other end of the line.

I think this is vital to encourage visitors who maybe don't have a whole day spare to travel out and back on a line, and maybe are in an area for only a few days.

In these post COVID times one way visitors are probably just as likely to spend in cafes and shops at a railway as those doing an out and back day out, indeed if travelling by public transport it's often far easier to plan to eat at the preserved railway with a decent cafe or pub than elsewhere.

renegademaster · 1 Mar 2024

peteb said:
For those heritage railways with good adjacent rail or bus links there should be a policy of offering through ticketing either by purchase from their own website or from the national rail/bus operators websites.

Will the TOCs try to scrape a fee off that though?

Titfield · 1 Mar 2024

renegademaster said:
Will the TOCs try to scrape a fee off that though?

It takes two to tango.

You can not compel either party to take part in such an arrangement or pay a commission or facilitation fee.

Many of these schemes founder when it is discovered that they generate very little incremental revenue / new patronage but incur significant marketing or implementation costs.

In some respects that is no different to when a HR offers an annual pass but then discovers that over an entire year they have sold only a few dozen.

paul1609 · 1 Mar 2024

renegademaster said:
Will the TOCs try to scrape a fee off that though?

As I have said before basically through tickets from National Rail are basically the Cheap Day Return to the destination plus an administration fee (Ive heard £2.50 per ticket mentioned for the LSE TOCs) plus whatever add on the heritage railway charges. The hertiage railway pays the TOCs charge out of their cut. This is why they are not a good deal for the heritage railway. @nferuso can probably give you more details as he was directly involved with one railways through tickets. As I see it what schemes there were are either moribound or are being actively withdrawn as the heritage railways move to on line advance bookings.

eldomtom2 · 1 Mar 2024

paul1609 said:
As I see it what schemes there were are either moribound or are being actively withdrawn as the heritage railways move to on line advance bookings.

Of course, you're not offering any proof of this...

paul1609 · 1 Mar 2024

eldomtom2 said:
Of course, you're not offering any proof of this...

Think the KWVR through tickets from Northern have/ are about to be withdrawn. If there is anybody who can provide me with details of a scheme which is flourishing I'd be happy to receive the details
There are at least 2 posters on here who have details of their railways tickets which are more or less moribund as I understand it.

matt · 1 Mar 2024

Don't believe the Severn Valley Railway through ticket is available any more either.

BrianW · 1 Mar 2024

Has anyone asked why heritage railways should seek to encourage use of public transport?
Do we expect supermarkets, for instance, to encourage use of public transport- they have acres of car parking.

A S Leib · 1 Mar 2024

BrianW said:
Do we expect supermarkets, for instance, to encourage use of public transport- they have acres of car parking.

Do you normally take six bags on a twenty minute walk when you visit a heritage railway? Encouraging use of public transport by heritage railways has the same benefits as for anywhere else where it's a practical option; less pollution, less stress for the traveller (in theory), and less traffic for those for whom dricing's the only practical option.

Titfield · 1 Mar 2024

paul1609 said:
Think the KWVR through tickets from Northern have/ are about to be withdrawn. If there is anybody who can provide me with details of a scheme which is flourishing I'd be happy to receive the details
There are at least 2 posters on here who have details of their railways tickets which are more or less moribund as I understand it.

I believe that Swanage Railway are launching a new scheme with Morebus for this summer but no details yet.

A feel a sense of "if you cant beat them join them" considering Swanage Railways complaint that the £2 one way fare had a negative impact on last years Swanage <> Wareham DMU service (which isnt operating in 2024).

Lemmy99uk · 1 Mar 2024

paul1609 said:
Think the KWVR through tickets from Northern have/ are about to be withdrawn. If there is anybody who can provide me with details of a scheme which is flourishing I'd be happy to receive the details
There are at least 2 posters on here who have details of their railways tickets which are more or less moribund as I understand it.

Through tickets to the Ravenglass and Eskdale seem to be popular.

In fact many of the Conductors and booking office staff are very pro-active and frequently question people asking for Ravenglass tickets if they are visiting ‘La’al Ratty’.

paul1609 · 1 Mar 2024

Lemmy99uk said:
Through tickets to the Ravenglass and Eskdale seem to be popular.

In fact many of the Conductors and booking office staff are very pro-active and frequently question people asking for Ravenglass tickets if they are visiting ‘La’al Ratty’.

Ravenglas was by far the biggest by sales number when I did my survey some years ago in fact it was the only significant one I found. For what I understand were historic reasons the TOC didn't make an admin charge either- no idea if that's still the case.

Krokodil · 1 Mar 2024

BrianW said:
Has anyone asked why heritage railways should seek to encourage use of public transport?
Do we expect supermarkets, for instance, to encourage use of public transport- they have acres of car parking.

Shouldn't we be asking everyone whether they can make their business more accessibile to public transport?

paul1609 said:
Ravenglas was by far the biggest by sales number when I did my survey some years ago in fact it was the only significant one I found. For what I understand were historic reasons the TOC didn't make an admin charge either- no idea if that's still the case.

What about the Ffestiniog ones? The through single/return tickets used to be quite popular when the connections worked and the tickets were properly advertised. Ffestiniog Round Robins are still common.

lyndhurst25 · 1 Mar 2024

Lemmy99uk said:
Through tickets to the Ravenglass and Eskdale seem to be popular.

In fact many of the Conductors and booking office staff are very pro-active and frequently question people asking for Ravenglass tickets if they are visiting ‘La’al Ratty’.

Certainly a ticket that I make frequent use of, genuinely using the Ratty as public transport for visiting Eskdale, which has no bus service. It is the reason that the railway was built in the first place. Long may it continue!

Unfortunately the through ticket seems to be less well publicised nowadays; hidden away, with pre-booked "experiences" being actively marketed instead. I can understand them doing that for financial reasons, but in reality they are different markets. I wouldn't be seen dead having a cream tea in a pullman observation coach. Me and my rucksack in the cheap seats is all that I want.

BrianW · 1 Mar 2024

Krokodil said:
Shouldn't we be asking everyone whether they can make their business more accessibile to public transport?

What about the Ffestiniog ones? The through single/return tickets used to be quite popular when the connections worked and the tickets were properly advertised. Ffestiniog Round Robins are still common.

Yes; as part of an encouragement to all and/or if it makes commercial sense.

JGurney · 2 Mar 2024

BrianW said:
Do we expect supermarkets, for instance, to encourage use of public transport

Yes.

daodao · 2 Mar 2024

BrianW said:
Has anyone asked why heritage railways should seek to encourage use of public transport?

It is reasonable for a venue to include on publicity material what public transport (if any) passes close to their business; this has a minimal cost implication. It is quite another to provide discounts or through ticketing.

The former just requires a sentence or two on leaflets or the website, and should be as general as possible so that it does not become out-of-date rapidly, in particular timetables should not be included.

The latter is only justified if it makes commercial sense and overall helps the bottom line, by increasing custom, or by reducing the number of car parking spaces required where land is expensive. For most rural heritage lines, this does not apply. Reducing traffic congestion would only be beneficial to the business if it puts people off visiting.

BrianW said:
Do we expect supermarkets, for instance, to encourage use of public transport? - they have acres of car parking.

No. Almost the last reason why elderly folk continue to drive is to visit their local supermarket, so that they can take their shopping home easily without relying on someone else.

Invincible · 2 Mar 2024

Titfield said:
I believe that Swanage Railway are launching a new scheme with Morebus for this summer but no details yet.

A feel a sense of "if you cant beat them join them" considering Swanage Railways complaint that the £2 one way fare had a negative impact on last years Swanage <> Wareham DMU service (which isnt operating in 2024).

I see SWR have yet to update the website

Swanage Railway | South Western Railway

www.southwesternrailway.com

"South Western Railway is pleased to be supporting Swanage Railway with the introduction of their trial service of trains".
Although SWR could have promoted it more in 2023.

If you are travelling from London, Southampton, Weymouth or intermediate stations to Swanage or Corfe by train, a bit of an inconvenience to have to use a bus when the heratige DMU and track are available.
I know it has been discussed in other threads, hopefully a viable way of getting the heratige DMU service back in 2025 from Wareham can be found?.

Titfield · 2 Mar 2024

Invincible said:
I see SWR have yet to update the website

Swanage Railway | South Western Railway

www.southwesternrailway.com

"South Western Railway is pleased to be supporting Swanage Railway with the introduction of their trial service of trains".
Although SWR could have promoted it more in 2023.

If you are travelling from London, Southampton, Weymouth or intermediate stations to Swanage or Corfe by train, a bit of an inconvenience to have to use a bus when the heratige DMU and track are available.
I know it has been discussed in other threads, hopefully a viable way of getting the heratige DMU service back in 2025 from Wareham can be found?.

Swanage Railway have already benefitted from a huge amount of public and other funding for Project Wareham: DMUs (initial provision and refurbishment to mainline standards), upgrading of line between Norden and Worgret Junction, inclusion in Wool - Poole resignalling scheme, level crossing at Norden Gates, dmu servicing facility at Corfe Castle, support from SWR driver medicals. The reality is that Swanage railway want someone to pick up the bill for the track and station access charges and the mainline running insurance premium.

I am not convinced that the financial support required is the best use of public moneys given the relatively low patronage and that alternative forms of pubic transport exist.

If the moneys spent on the DMU acquisition and refurbishment to mainline standards had been used to pay to hire in suitable traction instead then there would have been ample funds left over for the track and station access charges and the insurance premium.

RT4038 · 2 Mar 2024

Titfield said:
The reality is that Swanage railway want someone to pick up the bill for the track and station access charges and the mainline running insurance premium.

Don't suppose the passenger fares are going to cover this and the operating costs?

Titfield · 2 Mar 2024

RT4038 said:
Don't suppose the passenger fares are going to cover this and the operating costs?

Apparently not but £25 adult return is quite a fare.

HullRailMan · 2 Mar 2024

daodao said:
It is reasonable for a venue to include on publicity material what public transport (if any) passes close to their business; this has a minimal cost implication. It is quite another to provide discounts or through ticketing.

The former just requires a sentence or two on leaflets or the website, and should be as general as possible so that it does not become out-of-date rapidly, in particular timetables should not be included.

The latter is only justified if it makes commercial sense and overall helps the bottom line, by increasing custom, or by reducing the number of car parking spaces required where land is expensive. For most rural heritage lines, this does not apply. Reducing traffic congestion would only be beneficial to the business if it puts people off visiting.

No. Almost the last reason why elderly folk continue to drive is to visit their local supermarket, so that they can take their shopping home easily without relying on someone else.

Exactly this - what matters to any business or organisation is drawing people in to visit, not how they get there. By all means highlight all journey options, but ultimately the overwhelming majority of potential visitors would/will travel by car and of course their needs should be catered for.

I frequently visit the NYMR which is an hours drive door to door. Of course I could take the bus/train and spend the best part of four hours each way doing so, but that’s a deeply unattractive option, especially given the very mixed timekeeping of the heritage railway. Hull has a higher than average number of households without a car, but I highly doubt any of them will be rushing to Pickering to spend £40+ each for a day out. The cost of the NYMR ticket will be a much bigger barrier than how to get there.

Invincible · 2 Mar 2024

Titfield said:
Apparently not but £25 adult return is quite a fare.

Not really as for £25 you could change at Wareham for the heratige DMU and then change again at Corfe for the return steam train to Swanage.
Just sad the income did not pay for the extra WCR driver and insurance needed.

Do you know when the 2023 report and footfall figures will be published?.

Titfield said:
If the moneys spent on the DMU acquisition and refurbishment to mainline standards had been used to pay to hire in suitable traction instead then there would have been ample funds left over for the track and station access charges and the insurance premium.

So an unwise decision in the early planning to refurbish 2 60 year old DMUs, which ended up costing far more than expected. Not sure at the time suitable traction might have been a available to rent? Perhaps worth discussing in the other Swanage Wareham thread?.

eldomtom2 · 2 Mar 2024

daodao said:
The former just requires a sentence or two on leaflets or the website, and should be as general as possible so that it does not become out-of-date rapidly, in particular timetables should not be included.

The idea that information should be made deliberately unhelpful so that the people providing don't have to spend the quarter-of-an-hour's work every so often checking it is an interesting one.

Solent&Wessex · 3 Mar 2024

43096 said:
That's only if you look at it from a public transport perspective.

What really matters is revenue to the railway. If they've made a calculation that the add-on element doesn't attract much new business and means people who would visit anyway generate less revenue, then it is the right call.

First and foremost the railway must do what it is right for their business - they're not there to try and change people's minds about how to travel. That is particularly so during the current squeeze on peoples' incomes - it's a day out, not a necessity to travel on preserved railways. Cost of the whole day is important and public transport is never likely to be a winner for visitors such as families due to cost and ease of use.

This.

In the case of the KWVR, there are a number of reasons around this decision:

1) The add on through ticket is only available where there is a Route Any Permitted Anytime or Off Peak Day Return fare. It is not available on Single, "Open" Returns, Advance or TOC Only, e.g Northern Only tickets. With the growing number of Advance and TOC only fares and changes in ticket types available for certain journeys, it is now the case that it isn't possible to get a through ticket from lots of places where they were traditionally sold. Thus their availability is poor and varied, making effective advertising difficult. I.e. They were no longer available from York, or Doncaster, but were from Sheffield and Leeds. For many other journeys within the region Advance tickets are becoming increasingly popular.

2) You cannot restrict the dates the product is available. There have been people turning up on days we are closed with the tickets. Whilst that is not the fault of the KWVR, it does inevitably reflect badly and cause confusion.

3) Following on from (2), it causes problems on Galas or Events when KWVR fares are increased.

4) With the advent of internet bookings for heritage railways many visitors can now get a better overall price by buying tickets separately. This is also better for the KWVR as we get all the income straight away.

The commercial decision is thus that overall it is in our interests to remove the ticket.

Of note however is that you can still get a 20% discount on normal days on the cost of a Rover by presenting a Transdev Treats Voucher. These are issued free of charge by bus drivers when buying your bus ticket on a Transdev bus service.

How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?

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