Anonymous10
Established Member
So long as there are frequent enough services using the 175s it's really not a issue tfw managed fine till they were withdrawn.
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Class 175 future speculation
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Given that the Turbos haven't had their couplers modified to allow them to couple to Sprinters (something I'm led to believe would be relatively simple), another non compatible coupling standard probably isn't too much of a worry for the decision makers.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
AIUI Turbos and Sprinters can couple for assistance and ECS but not for service.
Bob Price
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Sorry but I have seen 175's coupled to 150's before. Not frequently but it has happened.
I was also going to say that it seems the most sensible option. I’d say and it seems that many others also would, that the 175’s are better in almost every way than the sprinters. The 158’s are definitely close. But the 175’s are a marked improvement over the 150’s.
They have better acceleration and top speed than the sprinters. Capacity is very similar. If a 3 car 175 is not enough then a 3car 158 isn’t enough either. The big down side then becomes if you want a 4 car 175 then there’s no through gangways.
Are you sure ? I sign sprinters and I’m pretty sure I was told they definitely can not couple to 175’s when we had them at TFW.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not possible, one has Scharfenberg coupler and one has BSI, and to add to that I think 175s are 2 pipe air braked and 150s Westcode.
Are you thinking of 170s which are basically posh Sprinters?
SuperLuke2334
Established Member
I imagine they mean Emergency coupling adaptors? 5mph max? I may be wrong in my assumption though.
Anonymous10
Established Member
I wonder if the above poster was confusing the 175s with the 170s, which can couple with a 15x.
Bob Price
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It was definitely a 175 and it was in multiple with another unit crossing the M4 bridge at Newport on the Ebbw Vale line. It was some years ago but I remember seeing it and thinking what a waste of a 175, running it up there! These were Ariva days.
43096
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Whatever it was, it was not a 175 coupled to any other class of TfW/ATW unit. They are physically incapable of coupling. A 175 could only couple to another 175 in service.
Why, particularly given that Northern are trying to reduce the number of classes that they operate?
175’s are unable to even mechanically couple to any other class of unit in the Welsh fleet from ATW days nevermind electrically as they have a completely different coupling (Scharfenberg vs BSI).
Well the 175’s couplers just aren’t compatible with anything else in the Arriva of TFW fleets. So unless they were using a tow rope, there’s a wire been crossed somewhere!
REVUpminster
Member
If the 175s do end up at Exeter in place of the 158s then it is inevitable they will get used Exmouth Paignton as do the odd 158. I think they will only be a stop gap until a new train is designed that can operate the "Devon Metro" and Cornish lines. Probably a 2car and 3 car design that can couple up as 2x2 for say Barnstaple or St Ives in the summer and possible a 3+2 for Paignton Exmouth.
Another consideration is the 1a and 3a platforms at St David's that allow a 4 car 150, 3 car 165/166 reverse while a 6 car 159 is in platform 1 or 3.
Another consideration is the 1a and 3a platforms at St David's that allow a 4 car 150, 3 car 165/166 reverse while a 6 car 159 is in platform 1 or 3.
There is some sort of procurement process going on for replacement stock. There’s a thread about it somewhere I’m sure. If I remember correctly I think that is for entry into service in 2030 though.
Everything here is speculation so far so they could well do.
I see today there was an 802 that went from Cardiff to St Austell then shuttled between there and Plymouth. I’m not family with it, is that usually an 802 ? And is it so busy that it really warrants a 5 car 802 ?
My opinion is that the 175’s would be ideal to replace that and allow the 802 to bolster London services to 10 cars. My opinion is that the 175’s, should GWR get them, is that they should first replace the HST’s that are still going and then displace 802’s on to more appropriate work, such as making sure London - Cardiffs don’t run as 5 coaches.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Looking at RTT this seems to be related to a line closure after St Austell.
Pretty much all of the trains between St Austell and Plymouth (where most trains were turning around) were either 43s (2+4) or 802s (5 car).
Given that the 1tph in place of a usual 2tph maybe it was busy enough.
Although if it was that busy I wouldn't want to have to fit onto the bus from there (although at least there's 2 per hour for that bit)!
There are plenty of IETs working services for which they are an over-provision (and I don’t just mean “diagram fillers”). The problem is that post COVID there are (in theory - which is all that counts to the DfT bean counters,it seems ) too many IETs for the IC services they were built for, and nothing like enough dmus for the expanded/expanding local services around Bristol and the West.
Mikey C
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For special events like the rugby, GWR run extra 387 services between London and Cardiff, which doesn't suggest they have that many surplus IETs...
43096
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They don’t because the surplus is a) used on “West” diagrams (replacing Cattle HSTs) and b) Hitachi have never got availability up to where it should be.
RPI
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I think part of the reason for using 387's is that you can "Rack 'em and stack 'em" better than an IET, IE their commuter type layout makes them more suitable for shifting large crowds more effectively.
Bearing in mind how busy the 07:22 from Barnstaple to Exeter Central is with a 3 car 158, I think ideally you’d want to increase capacity on that service rather than just replacing with another three car unit. Is it possible to move some of the centre cars from other units to make some designated 4 car services (retaining a corridor walk-through) so short platforms are less of an issue, and then prioritise the two cars to make four car services between Exeter/Plymouth and Penzance where a corridor connection may be less important? 2 car 175s are probably ideal for Okehampton, and I guess the stock may need clearing to Axminster.
I agree that Turbos would be ideal for some of the branch lines in Cornwall - St Ives in summer would be a lot better with a 4 car 165.
I agree that Turbos would be ideal for some of the branch lines in Cornwall - St Ives in summer would be a lot better with a 4 car 165.
RPI
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The 07:22 from Barnstaple is a headache, it can be run as a 4 car 150 without platform issues, but that ties that up for the rest of the day, the same diagram also includes the 15:19 from St Davids to Barnstaple which is the returning college train, which ultimately also goes through to Axminster!
I suppose the question would be could the morning one be a 4 or 5 car 175 utilising the SDO at Eggesford.
A Metro is a very different kettle of fish to a rural branch line - anything ordered to work both is bound to be an inappropriate product for one or the other. Assuming 'Devon Metro' is an Exmouth-Paington all stations stopper then my feeling is that something like the class 166/165 units (but ideally with end-gangways if running in multiple - not sure how many coaches these load to) would probably be appropriate there. The rural branches though would probably be better off with a modernised, air-conditioned, version of a class 156 (which, apart from the rather higher top speed and lack of end-gangways, is kindof what the 175s are). Also, I hope any new stock will have electric drive (ie. diesel-electric with traction motors) and (at least passive provision for) a pantograph to allow the diesel engines to be turned off if/when running under the wires.
The problem in my view isn't quite as simple as "too many IETs". Rather, the number of IET coaches ordered might have been about right, but too many of them were ordered with driving cabs rather than intermediate vehicles (ie. too many units overall, but more of the remainer should have been 9-cars and possibly some 7-car sets instead of any 5-car units).
Yes, as 12-car formations if I recall correctly (presumably, until the wires to Swansea were cancelled, these 12-car 387 plans included the Port Talbot - Cardiff crowd busters that GWR used to run with IC125s?). Once you take off the larger cabs and kitchen space on an IET, the roughly 12x20m of a class 387 crowd buster (240m) could well have a greater length of usable passenger space than the roughly 10x26m (260m) of the longest IET formation.
175’s don’t have SDO.
When coupled in multiple they have the capability for the guard to only release doors on the front unit but that’s it.
If you had a 4 car on a 3 car platform then the guard would have to use a local door only.
But I have thought you could steal a few 3 cars middle cars, turning them into 2 cars and adding the middle car into some of the remaining 3 cars to make 4 cars.
Is the middle car just a trailer?
All vehicles have an engine.
Whatever the cause and possible errors in the tendering, there remains the “simple” fact that on paper at least, GWR has more IETs than it needs for its intercity services. The reality of the situation is of course short forms daily while IETs run Bath - Bristol stoppers and then pootle back and forth between Bristol and Worcester on stopping services.
craigybagel
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IIRC correctly, there's only 1 compressor on a 3 car 175 - it certainly took an age to build up main res on a dead unit. I don't know if it would be capable of supplying enough air for a 4 car set.