YorkRailFan
On Moderation
What about Manchester's direct service to Bournemouth and Bristol? That service isn't only a Birmingham-Manchester service.
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Cross Country overcrowding - shortage of rolling stock
- Thread starter Killingworth
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FlyingPotato
Member
I agree with your plan but first the new 807s are needed and it should only be 1ph extended from Birmingham and the Scotland services should still go down to London
However the XC should still go to Manchester as it's a popular service down south
It would be better to have cross platform changes onto an LNWR Liverpool service in Birmingham somewhere
I think the GWR Paddington to Oxford service should be extended to Banbury.
At least then, there is the option of transferring to Chiltern for the onward journey to Birmingham.
Although GWR do operate to Banbury, it is only a two hourly service that starts at Didcot Parkway.
It also does not help on a Sunday when the service north in the Oxford direction is now only once an hour, from Reading - on both GWR and XC.
Both service leave the same time, or a minute apart in the hour, which is absurd.
They should be half an hour apart, in the hour.
An example for the 31st March, in the attached image.
At least then, there is the option of transferring to Chiltern for the onward journey to Birmingham.
Although GWR do operate to Banbury, it is only a two hourly service that starts at Didcot Parkway.
It also does not help on a Sunday when the service north in the Oxford direction is now only once an hour, from Reading - on both GWR and XC.
Both service leave the same time, or a minute apart in the hour, which is absurd.
They should be half an hour apart, in the hour.
An example for the 31st March, in the attached image.
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Sad Sprinter
Established Member
All we need is Basingstoke to Reading/Didcot to Coventry wiring and you can run Manchester to Bournemouth in a 350 or something
It is pretty clear that XC's woes will not be solved unless it gets a reasonable increase in rolling stock/new trains. Plus an increase in frequency on some parts of their network.
However, on the rare occasions you do encounter a 8/10 carriage train, even that can be overcrowded.
Some parts of their network need more than the once an hour service currently offered.
In addition to the core routes, such as Bournemouth to Manchester, this should also be backed up by another service within the hour, of say Bournemouth to Birmingham.
I also cannot see staff morale at XC being that great. They have to work on largely overcrowded trains and must be getting in the nexk quite frequently from customers for the overcrowding issues.
However, on the rare occasions you do encounter a 8/10 carriage train, even that can be overcrowded.
Some parts of their network need more than the once an hour service currently offered.
In addition to the core routes, such as Bournemouth to Manchester, this should also be backed up by another service within the hour, of say Bournemouth to Birmingham.
I also cannot see staff morale at XC being that great. They have to work on largely overcrowded trains and must be getting in the nexk quite frequently from customers for the overcrowding issues.
dk1
Veteran Member
We refurbished the entire 100 plus mk3 fleet at GA to a high spec Inc CET and power sockets throughout only to announce replacement of the entire lot less than 3 years later.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
Why?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
XC needs more stock and, even more importantly, more staff. The timetable is still running at Covid levels because XC don’t have the staff to increase the service. That lack of staff is also why you don’t see enough double units out on the network, both double voyagers and double 170s.
It should improve when the Reading-Newcastle via Doncaster re-appears later this year, as the section between Reading and Birmingham is horrific for overcrowding.
But the whole XC network is just massively over-subscribed. I was on a Saturday morning Cardiff to Birmingham in January and a 3-car 170 was standing room only from Gloucester.
Quick wins would include cutting XC back to save some units- there’s no need for XC to serve north/west of Edinburgh nor south/west of Plymouth. Splitting out Birmingham-Manchester would help too, the new mini Hitachis at Avanti would be perfect there. But it’s really all fiddling with deckchairs whilst the ship sinks.
It should improve when the Reading-Newcastle via Doncaster re-appears later this year, as the section between Reading and Birmingham is horrific for overcrowding.
But the whole XC network is just massively over-subscribed. I was on a Saturday morning Cardiff to Birmingham in January and a 3-car 170 was standing room only from Gloucester.
Quick wins would include cutting XC back to save some units- there’s no need for XC to serve north/west of Edinburgh nor south/west of Plymouth. Splitting out Birmingham-Manchester would help too, the new mini Hitachis at Avanti would be perfect there. But it’s really all fiddling with deckchairs whilst the ship sinks.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they require double crewing with guards (i.e. the driver can't count as a member of staff in the second unit, nor can the trolley person as they can on GWR) they could just change their stupid rule. They'd have kittens at Chiltern - often there are formations of several non-gangwayed units with only the driver.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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Except as we keep pointing out, that’s not planned to happen until June 2025, which will certainly help with the situation between Reading and Birmingham. However even with them coming back alternate trains won’t go beyond York.
Not much in the way of savings to be made, unfortunately, if my memory of the diagrams is correct - all extensions are in marginal time and the units in question would most likely be sat at Craigentinny or Laira instead. They've pretty much already stripped out all of the extensions which take up units.
Absolutely. Even from their more senior staff, they tend to speak in terms of 'doing their best' and 'making best use of limited resources' rather than being able to find much in the way of positive things to say about XC's service.
Staffing is difficult because of the number of depots, many small. Combine that with the increasing number of retiring traincrew industry-wide and a historic reluctance to train crew at InterCity TOCs like XC and this is what you get.
Wouldn't it be simpler to extend the 1/2 hourly LNW (London via Northampton) service to Manchester? West Midland Trains could keep hold of some of the 350/2 fleet so that more 730s are available for the service.
If XC could then merged the Bristol and Bournemouth services with the 1/2 hourly Leicester or the Nottingham service, that would eliminate 2 terminating trains from New Street, and free up more units.
No doubt there will be many arguments against, not least from XC, who are probably making a decent profit from the Manchester to Birmingham sardine cans.
FlyingPotato
Member
What would the people of the South and North say about loosing a direct train?
Splitting the service isn't a good idea rn, it's likely to drive people in the South and South West away from trains
What was once a single train with no changes becomes a change in Birmingham new Street basically, a station that's often hated.
Splitting it isn't an option in reality because of it, what needs to happen is XC gets more trains or Avanti extends at some point
dk1
Veteran Member
It’s just how it went. Total fleet renewal.
Halish Railway
Established Member
It doesn't help that a lot of services by other operators on sections of track shared with Cross Country either haven't come to fruition of have just disappeared. Specifically the additional Northern service between Chesterfield and Leeds via Wakefield Westgate (starting at Nottingham and terminating at Bradford Interchange) which hasn't happened and the LNWR Crewe to Birmingham New Street via Stoke-on-Trent service which used to provide a fast link between Stoke and Birmingham was first redirected via Tame Bridge Parkway and then truncated into a Stafford to Crewe service. Both of these would have taken away passengers on the busiest parts of XC's network. Likewise, had the Midland Mainline idea of extending St Pancras to Sheffield services to Leeds happened that would have provided a huge boost in capacity for journeys between the Midlands, South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire, especially given that these would have been worked by their 9 carriage 222s.
Fortunately, the Midland Rail Hub scheme which is out to tender gives the incentive to increase services and capacity from Birmingham to Leicester, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff.
Fortunately, the Midland Rail Hub scheme which is out to tender gives the incentive to increase services and capacity from Birmingham to Leicester, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff.
Is there scope for GWR to provide a more regular service to Banbury?
At least that way, there is the option of transferring to Chiltern services at Banbury, and onwards to Birmingham.
What I've also found at Reading is many get on XC to go one stop up to Oxford. Surely there should be a way to get these people onto GWR instead.
At least that way, there is the option of transferring to Chiltern services at Banbury, and onwards to Birmingham.
What I've also found at Reading is many get on XC to go one stop up to Oxford. Surely there should be a way to get these people onto GWR instead.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Presumably there are a significant number of Oxford-Birmingham and beyond passengers from Oxford too, who can replace the passengers who leave the train at Oxford
Topological
Member
The issue is there are no easy wins
EMU on Manchester makes the most sense, as does terminating all East Coast services at York and having an EMU service from there. However, there will inevitably be direct journeys cut as a result.
On the reverse side to this I was on a 4 car from Bristol to Manchester today and there was space.
It is essentially a question of getting more stock, or cutting routes so the existing trains do not travel as far.
EMU on Manchester makes the most sense, as does terminating all East Coast services at York and having an EMU service from there. However, there will inevitably be direct journeys cut as a result.
On the reverse side to this I was on a 4 car from Bristol to Manchester today and there was space.
It is essentially a question of getting more stock, or cutting routes so the existing trains do not travel as far.
dk1
Veteran Member
Terminating all trains at York would be a bad idea. The Edinburgh-Plymouth at least should operate hourly as now. I don’t like the idea of splitting the Manchester-Bristol service but I do feel an EMU would greatly assist the Manchester-Birmingham flow.
Who knows what with 350s coming off lease soon something might happen.
The fact that they (or more correctly the Treasury) aren't making a 'decent profit' from CrossCountry is likely to be part of the problem. If there was a business plan that could be delivered, would increase capacity, and deliver a 'decent profit', it would have been tried by now.
dk1
Veteran Member
Railways aren’t generally expected to make a profit. That’s what subsidy is there for. A Quick Look at 2015/16 (if I’ve read it correctly) shows XC was then subsidised 7 pence for every passenger mile.
Avanti finished with two Voyagers some time ago. The government refused to let XC lease them, instead letting an OAO snap them up.
Running short diesel units (or pairs thereof) under the wires for long distances is extremely inefficient. XC also lose out on a considerable amount of their ORCATS share because they've been forced to hike through fares (which they would have received the bulk of the revenue from so passengers split into short distance fares which they have to share with other operators.
Sadly in England the political climate is very clearly that subsidy is coming down not up. Affects everything not just XC, but XC are among the unluckiest due to having poorer yield.
Maybe if people stopped voting for parties who don't want public funding for public services it'd improve...
irish_rail
Established Member
Indeed there is an element of "you get what you pay for" with this one.
The rest are going in June and apparently XC are having some.
dk1
Veteran Member
Seven for XC isn’t it?
deltic
Established Member
- Joined
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lots of trains operate DOO and in this case there is still a member of staff who could move between units. An example of passengers coming last again?
dk1
Veteran Member
I’m not sure of the numbers, just got told they would be gone by June. Though we’ve heard it before that something is going and then it doesn’t
It’s definitely seven extra units transferring from AWC.
Bevan Price
Established Member
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Would anyone be surprised if DfT forces XC to "lose" one 4 coach Voyager for each 5 coach Voyager it gets from Avanti WCML ?