Cross Country overcrowding - shortage of rolling stock

[Killingworth]

Tbis has been referred to indirectly in several recent threads but needs a thread of ts own.

I've had several bad experiences myself and heard of many others. This Sunday my grandson caught a train from Sheffield to Newcastle. He stood the entire way hearing complaints from all sides in the rammed full train. Just 4 coaches from. Exeter to Glasgow.

Do we just throw our hands in the air and say he should have waited for a later train that might have had 8 coaches? My wife and I did that in January but were chucked out of the rear unit at Derby and had to stand from there.

All who use the route know the problem. Crews know the problem. The management knows the problem. How does XC get a better share of brand new rolling stock?

 

[Wolfie]

Tbis has been referred to indirectly in several recent threads but needs a thread of ts own.

I've had several bad experiences myself and heard of many others. This Sunday my grandson caught a train from Sheffield to Newcastle. He stood the entire way hearing complaints from all sides in the rammed full train. Juzt 4 coaches from. Exeter to Glasgow.

Do we just throw our hands in the air and say he should have waited for a later train that might have had 8 coaches? My wife and I did that in January but were chucked out of the rear unit at Derby and had to stand from there.

All who use the route know the problem. Crews know the problem. The management knows the problem. How does XC get a better share of brand new rolling stock?

All you need to do is convince HMT..... Having 36+ years of experience trying to do that, albeit not in the transport sphere, l wish you good luck.... You will need it....

 

[RJ]

The short answer is to find another way to travel. The railway has sweet spots where you get a decent service, then there are parts where the service is chronically overcrowded and seriously unreliable. With the latter, the message is you either pay the top dollar and accept that’s the service you’re likely to get - or find another way to make the journey.

If it’s any consolation, the HSTs were withdrawn without replacement a few months ago, which tells you what the powers that be think about available capacity.

All that said, I find the regional operation a bit further south to be well alright, when it’s running properly.

 

[Efini92]

They are supposedly getting some more voyagers when avanti have finished with them.
However even if this happens, it’s unlikely to cure the overcrowding issues.

 

[Killingworth]

The short answer is to find another way to travel. The railway has sweet spots where you get a decent service, then there are parts where the service is chronically overcrowded and seriously unreliable. With the latter, the message is you either pay the top dollar and accept that’s the service you’re likely to get - or find another way to make the journey.

If it’s any consolation, the HSTs were withdrawn without replacement a few months ago, which tells you what the powers that be think about available capacity.

All that said, I find the regional operation a bit further south to be well alright, when it’s running properly.

Grandson used to commute by 2 Greater Anglia trains to school every day and trips up to London so is used to rail travel. He missd his southbound XC service on Saturday and found 2 LNER Azumas, first to York then Doncaster, and a Northern 150 to Sheffield didn't take much longer, he had a seat and 2 of the 3 legs were in modern roling stock.

Removing capacity from an operator struggling with capacity issues was a perverse response. I used to plan to use services with HSTs whenever possible for the space and quieter ride.

Avanti Voyager introduction and forthcoming refurbishment of existing stock may marginally improve user experience - by 2026? CrossCountry needs more attention than that.

 

[Ken H]

XC rips a massive hole in the railways green credentials. Running gas guzzling voyagers 100s of miles under the wires is just daft. Get a few bimodes for Edinburgh - Exeter, and EMUs fror Brum - Manchester (cl 350?) so Voyager workings can be 8 car.
And spark the fast lines Kings Norton - Longbridge.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Could a possible solution be to offer passengers with advance tickets the option to switch to less busy trains on the day of travel that are within say 90 minutes of the original departure time? This would obviously allow no added cost to the passenger and allows XC to spread passengers out over more services if possible. A theoretical win-win.

 

[Fishandbananas]

There's also a problem of lack of staff. I was on an 8 car voyager recently, but the rear unit was closed due to lack of staff to operate it (each unit needs at least one member of staff to operate)
Even if XC gets the extra units from Avanti they will need to hire more staff to run the units.

 

[Iskra]

I live on the XC core and it is rarely a pleasant experience. It needs a new order of 5/7 car IET's with 7 and 10 carriages minimum between Plymouth and Edinburgh, and between Reading and Manchester. 5 cars may suffice elsewhere, or possibly at the extremities of the operating day. XC, you would expect to come after the MML in the new-rolling stock pecking-order. However, industrial relations issues with Hitachi are possibly souring the likelihood of such an order being placed presently. The 170-operated routes also need additional capacity.

 

[Anonymous10]

I live on the XC core and it is rarely a pleasant experience. It needs a new order of 5/7 car IET's with 7 and 10 carriages minimum between Plymouth and Edinburgh, and between Reading and Manchester. 5 cars may suffice elsewhere, or possibly at the extremities of the operating day. XC, you would expect to come after the MML in the new-rolling stock pecking-order. However, industrial relations issues with Hitachi are possibly souring the likelihood of such an order being placed presently. The 170-operated routes also need additional capacity.

Personally a variation of the class 197 wouldn't go a miss for xc routes that operate the 170s. Albeit with luggage racks.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Personally a variation of the class 197 wouldn't go a miss for xc routes that operate the 170s. Albeit with luggage racks.

Or a diesel/battery 730.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I know it wouldn’t be popular to split the routes at Birmingham but really Birmingham to Manchester should be run using minimum 8 carriage EMUs. Failing that an order for bi mode stock would be very useful, 5 car IET style trains for the Cardiff/Nottingham/Stansteds and 9 cars for the longer stuff. Stop faffing around with splitting and joining and non walk through stock. Who cares if there are too many carriages between Redruth and Penzance if passengers between Edinburgh and Plymouth have all had seats.

 

[Iskra]

Personally a variation of the class 197 wouldn't go a miss for xc routes that operate the 170s. Albeit with luggage racks.

Yes, that would make sense. I have a feeling that Chiltern also might go down that route too and just replace their entire fleet wholesale.

- - - -

Back on the original point, I recently had a choice of expensive XC from Sheffield to Newcastle and return or a coach. The coach was significantly cheaper, I'm guaranteed a seat (and on one operator, you can even keep the seat free next to you for a fiver) and on a Saturday night there was a later-timed last coach back. The money saved on travel covered my hotel in Newcastle.

 

[Killingworth]

Reintroduction of a near hourly service from Newcastle to Reading in December may help, if it happens. Will there be the resources to run it?

 

[Ben427]

Had the joy of XC this weekend (Leeds to Derby) - five cars each way, which is absurd.

It doesn't help that it's an hourly service between major cities (Leeds & Sheffield to Brum and the East Mids) and it's the only fast train to Sheffield from Leeds, so it gets alot of use.

As others have said, it's a long standing (forgive the pun) issue and HMT don't give a toss. It doesn't help that the toilets on the voyagers generally smell and take up a ton of space so when you're inevitably sat near them you get a waft of god knows what on a regular occurance.

 

[swt_passenger]

Reintroduction of a near hourly service from Newcastle to Reading in December may help, if it happens. Will there be the resources to run it?

Not in Defember. This is only intended from May/June 2025, when they expect to have more stock available, as recent threads have discussed. Even then it has been said only alternate trains will run north of York. There‘s a track access application about it that’s been quoted a few times.

But I don’t think another new thread will be any different to the many previous discussions, how could there be anything new?

We've just had the regular “Birmingham New St to Manchester should be a self contained EMU”, which is about 10 years old now.

We’ve just had the “replace the entire fleet with IETs about 15 years earlier than planned” suggestion that comes up every few weeks.

It was Sunday. Staff don’t want to work Sundays. The timetable is wrecked every Sunday in parts of the network.

 

[Wolfie]

I know it wouldn’t be popular to split the routes at Birmingham but really Birmingham to Manchester should be run using minimum 8 carriage EMUs. Failing that an order for bi mode stock would be very useful, 5 car IET style trains for the Cardiff/Nottingham/Stansteds and 9 cars for the longer stuff. Stop faffing around with splitting and joining and non walk through stock. Who cares if there are too many carriages between Redruth and Penzance if passengers between Edinburgh and Plymouth have all had seats.

Re your last sentence HMT and therefore DfT definitely care about what would be perceived as over-provision.

Personally a variation of the class 197 wouldn't go a miss for xc routes that operate the 170s. Albeit with luggage racks.

The chances of new pure DMU orders pretty much range from zilch to zero and as far as l know CAF don't offer a hybrid. Unless some stock is squeezed from existing orders the best l can see XC getting for the 170s is some more of the same.

 

[Iskra]

Not in Defember. This is only intended from May/June 2025, when they expect to have more stock available, as recent threads have discussed. Even then it has been said only alternate trains will run north of York. There‘s a track access application about it that’s been quoted a few times.

But I don’t think another new thread will be any different to the many previous discussions, how could there be anything new?

We've just had the regular “Birmingham New St to Manchester should be a self contained EMU”, which is about 10 years old now.

We’ve just had the “replace the entire fleet with IETs about 15 years earlier than planned” suggestion that comes up every few weeks.

It was Sunday. Staff don’t want to work Sundays. The timetable is wrecked every Sunday in parts of the network.

Like EMR are doing, eliminating the similar but younger 222's? It's really easy to be a naysayer, but the last couple of decades have shown that anything can happen on the network, so I'll personally be keeping an open mind about what could happen at this point.

The railway's approach to weekend-working is outdated and not fit for purpose.

 

[Trainbike46]

Personally a variation of the class 197 wouldn't go a miss for xc routes that operate the 170s. Albeit with luggage racks.

We really shouldn't be ordering new diesel-only stock at this point. A 755/756-like unit, or some other bimode or BEMU design is what is needed. Personally I'm a big fan of the 755s, but other manufacturers can and do offer similar bimode products

The chances of new pure DMU orders pretty much range from zilch to zero and as far as l know CAF don't offer a hybrid. Unless some stock is squeezed from existing orders the best l can see XC getting for the 170s is some more of the same.

Agreed on the chances of new DMUs, however CAF do offer bimode/BEMU civities, though these will likely be class 331 derived rather than 197

CAF-Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, your railway solutions

CAF est un leader international en matière de conception, fabrication, maintenance et livraison d’équipements et de composants pour systèmes ferroviaires.

www.caf.net

 

[Failed Unit]

Tbis has been referred to indirectly in several recent threads but needs a thread of ts own.

I've had several bad experiences myself and heard of many others. This Sunday my grandson caught a train from Sheffield to Newcastle. He stood the entire way hearing complaints from all sides in the rammed full train. Just 4 coaches from. Exeter to Glasgow.

Do we just throw our hands in the air and say he should have waited for a later train that might have had 8 coaches? My wife and I did that in January but were chucked out of the rear unit at Derby and had to stand from there.

All who use the route know the problem. Crews know the problem. The management knows the problem. How does XC get a better share of brand new rolling stock?

It is very sad for the railway, but this kind of journey as other has said I would tend to change at Doncaster and use LNER. Timewise is about the same but sadly you can rely on Northern / TPE. Same with Edinburgh - Leeds, I always change at York to avoid XC. (To be fair going South is normally fine but heading North is a lottery as TPE can't be depended on)

 

[Killingworth]

It is very sad for the railway, but this kind of journey as other has said I would tend to change at Doncaster and use LNER. Timewise is about the same but sadly you can rely on Northern / TPE. Same with Edinburgh - Leeds, I always change at York to avoid XC. (To be fair going South is normally fine but heading North is a lottery as TPE can't be depended on)

Last year I found that by driving from my side of Sheffield to Doncaster I was able to beat the time from home to destination in Newcastle using XC. I parked more cheaply than in Sheffield and travelled 1st class with breakfast on LNER for less than standard class on XC.

(If TPE stopped more morning eastbound trains at Dore connections at Doncaster would be even better but that's another story.)

 

[185]

on an 8 car voyager recently, but the rear unit was closed due to lack of staff to operate it

Which is precisely why squat little Hitachi trains also have no place on the WCML, including from Liverpool.

 

[squizzler]

Another day, another XC overcrowding thread. What is there left to discuss that has not been covered 100 times before?

 

[Caaardiff]

Could XC give up any routes to free up some of it's fleet? The primary target being Cardiff - Nottingham.
XC continue with Nottingham - Birmingham in some form and TfW take on Cardiff - Birmingham which could in turn be changed to a Swansea - Birmingham. Once TFW have all of it's fleet in place there should be some slack and most training on the new fleet should be complete.

 

[12LDA28C]

I have a feeling that Chiltern also might go down that route too and just replace their entire fleet wholesale.

As they've just started a Class 168 refresh program which is costing a large sum of money this is unlikely.

Anyway, back on topic...

 

[deltic]

There's also a problem of lack of staff. I was on an 8 car voyager recently, but the rear unit was closed due to lack of staff to operate it (each unit needs at least one member of staff to operate)
Even if XC gets the extra units from Avanti they will need to hire more staff to run the units.

Out of interest why does the unit need a member of staff?

 

[Trainbike46]

Could XC give up any routes to free up some of it's fleet? The primary target being Cardiff - Nottingham.
XC continue with Nottingham - Birmingham in some form and TfW take on Cardiff - Birmingham which could in turn be changed to a Swansea - Birmingham. Once TFW have all of it's fleet in place there should be some slack and most training on the new fleet should be complete.

People keep suggesting XC abandon parts of their routes; I'm not sure it would help in the long term as the DfT would likely wish to see a fleet size reduction if routes are reduced as well. Also, isn't that a 170-operated route? if so, dropping it won't help with availability for the IC routes

Out of interest why does the unit need a member of staff?

I believe this is due to XC's particular operational procedures and/or agreements

 

[YorkRailFan]

Out of interest why does the unit need a member of staff?

Passenger assistance, in case of an emergency, revenue protection, catering, etc.

 

[YorksLad12]

It is very sad for the railway, but this kind of journey as other has said I would tend to change at Doncaster and use LNER. Timewise is about the same but sadly you can rely on Northern / TPE. Same with Edinburgh - Leeds, I always change at York to avoid XC. (To be fair going South is normally fine but heading North is a lottery as TPE can't be depended on)

Indeed. I'm doing Leeds-Edinburgh in April. It'll be Standard to York (possibly even by XC!) then LNER First the rest of the way north. Nothing would possess me to do XC all the way to Edinburgh; I have enough problems using them on my commute to Sheffield, but that 15-minute saving compared to Northern's semi-fast is attractive. Even if the people I'm crammed up against in the vestibule on a 4-car set aren't.

Another day, another XC overcrowding thread. What is there left to discuss that has not been covered 100 times before?

Quite. But there's space on the forum's servers

 

[Falcon1200]

Birmingham/Manchester should be solved by running, every half-hour, an Avanti Euston/Birmingham/Manchester train, therefore (partly at least) eliminating the platform occupation by terminating trains issue at New Street. The Scotland/Euston via Birmingham trains would then run no further south than Birmingham International. The Bournemouth/Manchester service should instead run to and from Liverpool, thereby providing that city with a long-overdue XC service. Trains should be timed so that, as far as possible, simple same-platform connections are available at the likes of Stafford or Wolverhampton.

No doubt there are many arguments against my plan, but it will never happen anyway!