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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

L

Lurcheroo

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Jez said:
I had no problem with the 175s. I was just pointing out that the 1830 was booked for a 2 car which was very often full leaving Manchester.
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My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.

Topological said:
I know, fancy accusing the 175s of delivering a through train to Swansea after 16:30 from Manchester ;)
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Naughty 175’s providing a good and useful rail service !! But truthfully, as I’ve said before, I do totally understand and I wish that all the mk4 diagrams would go to Swansea but we know it’s just not possible with the 67’s fuel capacity.

Topological said:
In all seriousness the Mk4 vanity project destroyed connectivity and then when the TfW control do not even hold the connection for a minute then you know why there might be one or two harks back to better days.

Yes, the future will be better, but it could have been a much better transfer.

Worth always remembering that we are still all paying for the 175s that we stare out of the too often 2 carriages to look at in the sidings near Crewe.
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I think calling it a vanity project Isn’t too fair either, they set out to provide a higher quality train service with first class and a full kitchen capability, which they’ve done (when it runs of course). And I wouldn’t be all too surprised if they’d have liked it to keep through connections too but when it was looked at, couldn’t be done.

It could have been better, in more ways than 1! There’s certainly better trains the 197’s (even though I like them).

This hand back phase would have to happen at someone I suppose.
 
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Jez

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Lurcheroo said:
My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.
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Ah okay..I understand now ;)

Krokodil said:
Unfortunately most of those are 2-car sets too.
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True but eventually they should all be 5 cars. A 2 car set whether a Sprinter 175 or 197 isn't great on any services to and from Manchester

Looks like an improvement today but the 1630 to Swansea is a 3 car 197 rather than a MK4, at least it should make it all the way to Swansea.
 
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S

sd0733

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Jez said:
Looks like an improvement today but the 1630 to Swansea is a 3 car 197 rather than a MK4, at least it should make it all the way to Swansea.
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All being well it shouldn't be. HD07 is planned to pick up that diagram from Cardiff so should work 12:49 from Cardiff/16:30 from Manchester.
 
T

Topological

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Swansea
Lurcheroo said:
My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.


Naughty 175’s providing a good and useful rail service !! But truthfully, as I’ve said before, I do totally understand and I wish that all the mk4 diagrams would go to Swansea but we know it’s just not possible with the 67’s fuel capacity.


I think calling it a vanity project Isn’t too fair either, they set out to provide a higher quality train service with first class and a full kitchen capability, which they’ve done (when it runs of course). And I wouldn’t be all too surprised if they’d have liked it to keep through connections too but when it was looked at, couldn’t be done.

It could have been better, in more ways than 1! There’s certainly better trains the 197’s (even though I like them).

This hand back phase would have to happen at someone I suppose.
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To me, the fact that the project delivered things like a kitchen (nice to have) instead of things like connectivity (primary purpose) means that it is a vanity project that ultimately places style ahead of substance. Once the issue with the 67s was identified then that should have been that, rather than trying to muddle something together with splits at Cardiff.

I like the 197s and would be perfectly happy if there had just been a transition from 175 to 197, though as has been shown it would have required a different depot being home to the 197s. I still advocate for brownfield sites like Swansea Maliphant, rather than taking over the depot that was servicing the main fleet so far ahead of that main fleet being withdrawn, but that ship sailed in a decision a long time before the first 197 arrived. If the first class provision was really a thing then there is first class on 197s. The kitchen I suspect most passengers would be very happy to do without.

There is so much that can be done better almost immediately, like guaranteeing the connection on the few connections that still work cross Cardiff. By the next available timetable change all connections could work (that is happening I believe), again with guarantees. Refunds for delay repay are all well and good, but most people just want to get on the train as planned rather than watch it pulling out the neighbouring platform on time.

I do worry about what will happen next as the 150s are now coming to the end of their lives and there is going to be less stock to cover. Maybe we get to the point where the existence of the Mk4 is the saviour of the service.

I just hope that TfW do reflect and that when the time comes for the next major transition of fleets more focus is placed on the core elements of the service provision.
 
K

Krokodil

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Jez said:
True but eventually they should all be 5 cars. A 2 car set whether a Sprinter 175 or 197 isn't great on any services to and from Manchester
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Quite a few other routes could do with longer formations too, but two coaches is apparently all they'll get.
 
A

Anonymous10

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Krokodil said:
Quite a few other routes could do with longer formations too, but two coaches is apparently all they'll get.
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Which routes? To my knowledge north Wales coast will be 3/4 and Manchester 2/3/4 or 5 usually 4 or 5. Maesteg and Ebbw Vale will be 3. That only leaves the crew Chester cuttle and Shrewsbury Crewe local along with a few other branch lines in North.

The west Wales lines can mostly cope with 2 excluding summer when tenby could use 3 coaches / sporting events and finally heart of Wales that 2 153s would be fine for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong however.

I have excluded the cambrian due to not having enough knowledge on this area.
 
animationmilo

animationmilo

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Anonymous10 said:
Which routes? To my knowledge north Wales coast will be 3/4 and Manchester 2/3/4 or 5 usually 4 or 5. Maesteg and Ebbw Vale will be 3. That only leaves the crew Chester cuttle and Shrewsbury Crewe local along with a few other branch lines in North.

The west Wales lines can mostly cope with 2 excluding summer when tenby could use 3 coaches / sporting events and finally heart of Wales that 2 153s would be fine for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong however.

I have excluded the cambrian due to not having enough knowledge on this area.
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I thought 231s were going on Maestegs
 
K

Krokodil

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Anonymous10 said:
Which routes? To my knowledge north Wales coast will be 3/4 and Manchester 2/3/4 or 5 usually 4 or 5.
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North Wales to Manchester was to be three cars, with a couple of of peak trains strengthened to fives east of Chester. Not good enough, even four car sets end up full and standing on the coast.

Llandudno to Liverpool was to be two cars, with a few combined, with the Cardiff to Liverpool services east of Chester. Those two car sets will be full and standing from Llandudno, never mind once they reach Rhyl.

Holyhead to Birmingham was supposed to be two cars between Holyhead and Shrewsbury, the four cars from there. A plan described by one of the controllers as "madness". Again, four car sets can end up full and standing on the coast so using two car sets is idiotic.

The Cambrian meanwhile was to remain as it is at the moment. Four cars to Machynlleth, splitting there for Pwllheli and Aberystwyth. It's taken a lot of fighting to get one of those Pwllheli trains strengthened to four coaches, loadings were really silly.
 
A

Anonymous10

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animationmilo said:
I thought 231s were going on Maestegs
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Oops yes they're 4 coaches...

Krokodil said:
North Wales to Manchester was to be three cars, with a couple of of peak trains strengthened to fives east of Chester. Not good enough, even four car sets end up full and standing on the coast.

Llandudno to Liverpool was to be two cars, with a few combined, with the Cardiff to Liverpool services east of Chester. Those two car sets will be full and standing from Llandudno, never mind once they reach Rhyl.

Holyhead to Birmingham was supposed to be two cars between Holyhead and Shrewsbury, the four cars from there. A plan described by one of the controllers as "madness". Again, four car sets can end up full and standing on the coast so using two car sets is idiotic.

The Cambrian meanwhile was to remain as it is at the moment. Four cars to Machynlleth, splitting there for Pwllheli and Aberystwyth. It's taken a lot of fighting to get one of those Pwllheli trains strengthened to four coaches, loadings were really silly.
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My point was to illustrate that many routes will NOT primarily be 2 coach
 
T

Topological

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Also of relevance is what is being replaced.

Manchester had a regular 3-car service, but is getting a majority 2-car at the moment. The Mk4 offer 2.5 or 3.5 (but the higher density of Mk4 mean that actually you are getting either 3 or 4 carriages). So IF a Mk4 runs that is an improvement. However, we are often seeing a 2-car service on a journey which had better under the 175s.

Liverpool is gaining many new TfW services and these are very welcome. However, they are not replacing anything so starting with 2-car is a good first position. The fact that the North Wales frequency increases means that there are more carriages between the stations even if the North Wales to Manchester/Shrewsbury services are not longer than they used to be. Note again a double 197 is better than a 3-car 175 for that route too.

It would be great if more 197s could be ordered. If they could I would have just 5 car 197s on Manchester so that connectivity across Cardiff was restored. I would send the Mk4 to Holyhead so they could stay entirely (almost) within Wales and provide the capacity needed on the North Wales coast too.

As it is I hope people understand why passengers on the Manchester line are not happy at the moment, and have not been happy for some time.
 
J

Jez

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sd0733 said:
All being well it shouldn't be. HD07 is planned to pick up that diagram from Cardiff so should work 12:49 from Cardiff/16:30 from Manchester.
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Excellent news. Perhaps the 3 car 197 that was allocated could be used to replace a 2 car and then 2 x 2 cars doubled up. More capacity overall for Marches hopefully.
 
K

Krokodil

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Anonymous10 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but north Wales will have more seats and more services thus more options.
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I did say "little to no improvement in levels of crowding" which is not the same as saying that there won't be a few more seats, just that the passengers won't see much improvement.

Llandudno will go from having a three car 175 with 200 odd seats departing twice an hour to a two car 197 with 120 odd seats, in some hours with only an hourly departure.

North Wales to Manchester services will go from an hourly three car 175 with some four cars in the peak (one of which was LHCS so a great people mover) and a few half-hour extras to an hourly three car 197 with some five cars in the peak, but only east of Chester.

Holyhead to Shrewsbury (for Birmingham) currently consists of a mixture of two and four car 158s. These will become 197s (so fewer seats per unit, even if some trains retain double sets).

Yes, you get an extra train per hour (or possibly two hours) between Llandudno Junction and Chester, thanks to the new Liverpool service, but that is just about enough to mop up the passengers left behind by all of the other trains, it's not enough to get people seated. Look at the example of Virgin Crosscountry as to how running short trains more frequently just induces demand faster than capacity can meet it.

To keep these on the topic of Mk4 sets, for a while 1W93 was LHCS. Used to run full and standing with first class declassified. Now it is booked for a two car DMU. I've seen some frankly unsafe loads as a result.
 
BillStampy

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Seems HD07 is taking on a final bit of passenger duties tonight on 1B41 from Swansea, leaving 197122 to do 2B74 back to Cardiff later (supposing 2B74 didn't have anything taking it on?) Must be a pleasant surprise to those travelling on it!
 
Western 52

Western 52

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BillStampy said:
Seems HD07 is taking on a final bit of passenger duties tonight on 1B41 from Swansea, leaving 197122 to do 2B74 back to Cardiff later (supposing 2B74 didn't have anything taking it on?) Must be a pleasant surprise to those travelling on it!
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1B41 calls at Ninian Park. Presumably 67s are cleared there then?
 
A

Anonymous10

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Jamesrob637

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BillStampy

BillStampy

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Which sets are out tomorrow? I'd usually use RTT but the majority of sets are imaged without the set allocation, thanks!
 
S

sd0733

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BillStampy said:
Which sets are out tomorrow? I'd usually use RTT but the majority of sets are imaged without the set allocation, thanks!
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Tomorrow should be:
HD01- Canton start
HD03- Crewe start (06:27 from Manchester diagram)
HD05- Crewe start (04:54 to Cardiff diagram)
HD07- Holyhead start

HD06- Spare on Canton

Saturday should have:
HD03 Canton start
HD05- Crewe start (04:54 to Cardiff diagram)
HD07- Crewe start (06:27 from Manchester diagram)

HD01 spare at Holyhead and HD06 spare at Canton

Sunday
HD06- Canton start
HD07- Crewe start
 
BillStampy

BillStampy

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sd0733 said:
Tomorrow should be:
HD01- Canton start
HD03- Crewe start (06:27 from Manchester diagram)
HD05- Crewe start (04:54 to Cardiff diagram)
HD07- Holyhead start

HD06- Spare on Canton

Saturday should have:
HD03 Canton start
HD05- Crewe start (04:54 to Cardiff diagram)
HD07- Crewe start (06:27 from Manchester diagram)

HD01 spare at Holyhead and HD06 spare at Canton

Sunday
HD06- Canton start
HD07- Crewe start
Click to expand...
Thanks mate!
 
38Cto15E

38Cto15E

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I have made my first TFW trips this week from Manchester to Cardiff, First Class.
Unfortunately my first trip was the 1430 from Man on Tuesday which turned up a 150 two car, very very disappointed.
More luck today on the 0849 from CDF, I had a very nice brekkie although only one serving member of staff who worked really hard but it was not far off Shrewsbury when I got my brekkie.
The seats I found comfortable but I was hoping for the old LNER ones. The track seemed in good nick and the ride was quiet and comfortable.
I stayed in Sleeperz at Cardiff with my room having good views of the platform ends.
I hope to try the journey again in a month or so.
 
A

Anonymous10

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38Cto15E said:
I have made my first TFW trips this week from Manchester to Cardiff, First Class.
Unfortunately my first trip was the 1430 from Man on Tuesday which turned up a 150 two car, very very disappointed.
More luck today on the 0849 from CDF, I had a very nice brekkie although only one serving member of staff who worked really hard but it was not far off Shrewsbury when I got my brekkie.
The seats I found comfortable but I was hoping for the old LNER ones. The track seemed in good nick and the ride was quiet and comfortable.
I stayed in Sleeperz at Cardiff with my room having good views of the platform ends.
I hope to try the journey again in a month or so.
Click to expand...
Last time I stayed there I unfortunately had a rather nice view over the city centre.
 
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