10 years in prison for forgetting to renew a railcard?

[spag23]

Is your mother not able to give you her railcard number for example if you have to purchase a ticket on her behalf?

Or if the card's long, alphanumeric ID is hard to read/remember/convey, could the sellers simply not request the expiry date, which is in big letters (And gives the purchaser an opportunity to record it in their own diary/app, to prompt the parent's renewal).
If the trip (for self or others) is beyond the relevant, current one's expiry (or even purchase), there could be a tick box to declare this.
If the purchaser falsifies any of these specific declarations, they can't then claim the future absence of a Railcard is a mere oversight.

 

[superkopite]

Why should they email people to remind them? They are in the business of selling tickets, not railcards

But they ARE in the business of selling railcards, they are extremely successful at it

 

[MotCO]

If the Railcard number included 4 digits giving the month the card expires, then by inputting Railcard numbers when buying a rail ticket, the system can surely quickly do a calculation and flag up if your card is expiring soon (or has expired).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Now I'm sure that nobody is going to go to prison for 10 years for failing to renew a railcard and GWR must know that. So how can it be permitted for them to make such threats? (I'm not convinced that it's criminal fraud either).

The short answer is that they can make these threats because nobody is going to stop them.

Buying a ticket with a railcard discount when you do not hold a railcard could, in theory, be argued as false representation. You’re representing you have a railcard when you purchase the ticket.

So it would be difficult to argue GWR are being entirely untruthful in their communication, even if in reality it would never happen.

Just another reason to outlaw private prosecutions.

 

[Statto]

Meanwhile the trainline is allowed to get away with not even emailing people to tell them their railcard is up for renewal (as happened to me this week - there is no notification in the app or any email received) It was only by chance I thought to check the expiry date as I'd foolishly assumed I'd be notified given I'd bought the railcard through the app.

Because it's not a 3rd party's job to check when railcards are expiring, it's up to the railcard holder to check their railcard expiry date.

 

[Sultan]

You can set up a reminder on your mobile phone to inform you of renewal dates, an external agancy is not going to do it for you when it's your responsibility to check your renewal dates.

These days I think you might need to set up a Tik-Tok video reminder, assuming you can record them a year in advance and schedule a release date!

 

[superkopite]

Because it's not a 3rd party's job to check when railcards are expiring, it's up to the railcard holder to check their railcard expiry date.

Third-parties have a vested interest in improving the passengers' overall customer experience. Passengers being heftily fined and threatened with court action for forgetting to renew their railcard has no positive impact on the business outcomes of third-party companies or the railway. Outdated attitudes like "it's the passenger's fault, fine them and they will learn" rather than trying to find innovative ways to help honest passengers manoeuvre the network in accordance with the rules have held the industry back.

 

[Krokodil]

Because it's not a 3rd party's job to check when railcards are expiring, it's up to the railcard holder to check their railcard expiry date.

It's good customer service. Whenever I'm shown a railcard that has less than a month to run, I always say something like "that's up for renewal next week". Makes it harder for the passenger to forget and therefore they won't have a run in with some RPIs in a fortnight. They come away with a positive experience and will travel again.

 

[superkopite]

It's good customer service. Whenever I'm shown a railcard that has less than a month to run, I always say something like "that's up for renewal next week". Makes it harder for the passenger to forget and therefore they won't have a run in with some RPIs in a fortnight. They come away with a positive experience and will travel again.

That's excellent customer service that I dare say down the years has spared many customers from fines and embarrassment.

 

[spag23]

If the Railcard number included 4 digits giving the month the card expires, then by inputting Railcard numbers when buying a rail ticket, the system can surely quickly do a calculation and flag up if your card is expiring soon (or has expired).

But it doesn't currently include this information; not on mine anyway, unless it's heavily encrypted.

These days I think you might need to set up a Tik-Tok video reminder, assuming you can record them a year in advance and schedule a release date!

This sort of IT literacy is beyond a large proportion of the population; especially Senior Railcard holders.
With any other retailer who offers a discount card, they actually ask to see it at each transaction, or (online) demand its number.
They don't just take the customer's word for it, and then later penalise/prosecute them if they discover there was no valid discount card.

 

[fandroid]

Because it's not a 3rd party's job to check when railcards are expiring, it's up to the railcard holder to check their railcard expiry date.

And then that third party goes on selling discounted tickets to someone who is no longer eligible for them, despite having information that casts real doubt on that eligibility. Later on they they spill the beans to their mates in a prosecution dept! Fantastic customer service. Not. Someone should remember who is actually paying the salaries of all these people.

 

[ianBR]

Why should they email people to remind them? They are in the business of selling tickets, not railcards


You may think it would be simple to keep up to date but it would involve extra cost and staff to manage which would in turn probably drive up the cost of railcards

Because if the trainline sells me a railcard through its app it is clearly also in the business of selling railcards.

Once I've bought the railcard through the trainline app they then make it very difficult to view the railcard and the expiry date. They are therefore setting their own customers up to be fined and/or prosecuted.

It would probably take their developers half an hour to display a notification on the app homepage warning you a stored railcard is about to expire. The RDG should not allow any retailer to sell digital railcards without a mechanism to inform people when they expire given it is not obvious like a paper railcard used to be.

All the GDPR discussion is a red herring. Informing people a service will expire is permitted as a service message hence why just about every subscription that I have does that despite me opting out of marketing emails.

 

[tomuk]

If it's to be accessed while buying a ticket, that's going to mean the app you're using querying the database. Additional access will inevitably add time: realistically, the query may not take very long - but getting the message to and from your phone might do.

If the centralised database isn't going to be accessed during purchase, then what's the point of it?

To stop operators issuing out of court settlement offers for £6000.

 

[MotCO]

But it doesn't currently include this information; not on mine anyway, unless it's heavily encrypted.

Indeed - it was a suggestion as to how things could be improved in the future.

 

[Par]

It would probably take their developers half an hour to display a notification on the app homepage warning you a stored railcard is about to expire.

I’m confused by your post.

We have Two Together Railcard bought from the Trainline, which expires on the 31st and when I open the app to view it, I get a very clear notification that it expires imminently, offering the opportunity to renew.

 

[pzned]

Because if the trainline sells me a railcard through its app it is clearly also in the business of selling railcards.

Once I've bought the railcard through the trainline app they then make it very difficult to view the railcard and the expiry date. They are therefore setting their own customers up to be fined and/or prosecuted.

It would probably take their developers half an hour to display a notification on the app homepage warning you a stored railcard is about to expire. The RDG should not allow any retailer to sell digital railcards without a mechanism to inform people when they expire given it is not obvious like a paper railcard used to be.

All the GDPR discussion is a red herring. Informing people a service will expire is permitted as a service message hence why just about every subscription that I have does that despite me opting out of marketing emails.

Ok maybe they do issue railcards. But how much hand holding do people need? It isn't hard to check the validity of a railcard before travelling even when its digital. The railcards even warn you a few weeks in advance that the railcard is "expiring soon".

I don't disagree that reminders could and should probably be sent out. But you wouldn't plan a holiday and book a flight without checking your passport was in date. Why should taking a train journey be any different?

 

[Krokodil]

I’m confused by your post.

We have Two Together Railcard bought from the Trainline, which expires on the 31st and when I open the app to view it, I get a very clear notification that it expires imminently, offering the opportunity to renew.

But you have to open the railcard in order to see that. Most people won't open their railcard until an inspector asks to see it. What posters are asking for is a notification that warns you about upcoming renewals when you're on the home screen, and alerts you when you're buying a ticket.

 

[Par]

But you have to open the railcard in order to see that. Most people won't open their railcard until an inspector asks to see it. What posters are asking for is a notification that warns you about upcoming renewals when you're on the home screen, and alerts you when you're buying a ticket.

I was replying to the poster who was complaining that nothing shows on the homepage of the app, when very clearly it does.

The usefulness of an additional advisory email warning is not in dispute.

 

[island]

Then there’s people in this forum who seem to think unsolicited reminders would be a breach of data protection rules.

They are if someone has opted out of marketing.

 

[Krokodil]

I was replying to the poster who was complaining that nothing shows on the homepage of the app, when very clearly it does.

The usefulness of an additional advisory email warning is not in dispute.

Does it show in the home page?

 

[Titfield]

Ok maybe they do issue railcards. But how much hand holding do people need? It isn't hard to check the validity of a railcard before travelling even when its digital. The railcards even warn you a few weeks in advance that the railcard is "expiring soon".

I don't disagree that reminders could and should probably be sent out. But you wouldn't plan a holiday and book a flight without checking your passport was in date. Why should taking a train journey be any different?

and indeed consider all the "products" that are bought that have expiry dates:

home insurance, car insurance, car MOT, car tax, driving licence, tv licence, passport, subscriptions, white good warranties.

Managing these products and their expiry dates, other important dates is a part of every day life. As indeed we manage doctors appointments, dental appointments, opticians appointments, birthdays, anniversaries etc etc.

Whilst failure to renew some of these could land you in hot water (for example the car related ones) and yes you often get reminders from suppliers the reality is that the onus is on the purchaser to check and renew / repurchase / attend as appropriate. (It is also perhaps worth reflecting on the criticism that some providers / retailers have received for auto renewing products).

Whilst it appears that the TOCS pursue those claiming discounts they are not entitled to with some vigour that is hardly surprising.

To me this comes back to the main point that the onus is on the purchaser to check.

 

[jon81uk]

Are you sure of that? You can, for example, receive reminders that a streaming or broadband subscription is coming to an end even if you have explicitly declined more general marketing emails.

A broadband subscription is a contract, you commit to paying X a month for at least X number of months.
A railcard is a one-off purchase, once you pay the initial sum you have no relationship with the retailer.

 

[AdamWW]

and indeed consider all the "products" that are bought that have expiry dates:

home insurance, car insurance, car MOT, car tax, driving licence, tv licence, passport, subscriptions, white good warranties.

Managing these products and their expiry dates, other important dates is a part of every day life. As indeed we manage doctors appointments, dental appointments, opticians appointments, birthdays, anniversaries etc etc.

But I don't think any of these are likely to lead to accusations of fraud and threats of ten years in prison if you forget to renew.

It surprises me that some people (not aimed at you) seem to think that the railway is justified in attemping to extract hundreds or thousands of pounds from a passenger under threat of prosecution for something which has lost the railway at most £30 a year.

 

[jon81uk]

But I don't think any of these are likely to lead to accusations of fraud and threats of ten years in prison if you forget to renew.

It surprises me that some people (not aimed at you) seem to think that the railway is justified in attemping to extract hundreds or thousands of pounds from a passenger under threat of prosecution for something which has lost the railway at most £30 a year.

Things like driving an untaxed or uninsured vehicle is a criminal offence in its own right though so doesn't need the accusation of fraud, you are accused of driving an untaxed vehicle. Similarly TV license evasion is currently a criminal offence.

But an expired passport is only an issue if you try and use it, there is no criminal offence even trying to use it, you just won't be admitted to the country you are travelling to.

 

[Titfield]

Things like driving an untaxed or uninsured vehicle is a criminal offence in its own right though so doesn't need the accusation of fraud, you are accused of driving an untaxed vehicle. Similarly TV license evasion is currently a criminal offence.

But an expired passport is only an issue if you try and use it, there is no criminal offence even trying to use it, you just won't be admitted to the country you are travelling to.

For the sake of clarity my posting was to make the point that in general for most adults in the uk, managing expiry dates of products and services we purchase is a part of every day life and that managing "a date" (the process of renewing / making alterative arrangements or deciding not to renew etc) is very much the same irrespective of the product or service. However the consequences of failing to renew etc varies often considerably according to the product or service.

Irrespective of GDPR and marketing communications opt ins / outs, and that some organisations may send reminders or ask the purchaser to check the validity dates of a product or service that has been purchased, the onus remains on the purchaser.

 

[Silenos]

For the sake of clarity my posting was to make the point that in general for most adults in the uk, managing expiry dates of products and services we purchase is a part of every day life and that managing "a date" (the process of renewing / making alterative arrangements or deciding not to renew etc) is very much the same irrespective of the product or service. However the consequences of failing to renew etc varies often considerably according to the product or service.

Irrespective of GDPR and marketing communications opt ins / outs, and that some organisations may send reminders or ask the purchaser to check the validity dates of a product or service that has been purchased, the onus remains on the purchaser.

While this is true, the situation with railcards may be exacerbated by the fact that you can buy at least some railcards valid for a period of several years. The longer between renewals, the easier it is to forget (which is why people regularly get caught out over their passport validity).

 

[SteveM70]

I was replying to the poster who was complaining that nothing shows on the homepage of the app, when very clearly it does.

No it doesn't.

The homepage contains various headings including "Railcards" and if you tap on Railcards you then get the screen you displayed. There is no need to go via that screen when buying tickets

 

[AdamWW]

Things like driving an untaxed or uninsured vehicle is a criminal offence in its own right though so doesn't need the accusation of fraud, you are accused of driving an untaxed vehicle. Similarly TV license evasion is currently a criminal offence.

Using an expired railcard doesn't need an accusation of fraud either - it's also a criminal offence because the NRCoT defines it as travelling without a valid ticket.

I don't think either of the offences you mention above carry a potential 10 year prison sentence and of course neither does using an expired railcard because even if a fraud prosecution was successful (and I think that incredibly unlikely) a judge would not be permitted to hand out such a sentence.

 

[WAB]

and indeed consider all the "products" that are bought that have expiry dates:

home insurance, car insurance, car MOT, car tax, driving licence, tv licence, passport, subscriptions, white good warranties.

Managing these products and their expiry dates, other important dates is a part of every day life. As indeed we manage doctors appointments, dental appointments, opticians appointments, birthdays, anniversaries etc etc.

Whilst failure to renew some of these could land you in hot water (for example the car related ones) and yes you often get reminders from suppliers the reality is that the onus is on the purchaser to check and renew / repurchase / attend as appropriate. (It is also perhaps worth reflecting on the criticism that some providers / retailers have received for auto renewing products).

Whilst it appears that the TOCS pursue those claiming discounts they are not entitled to with some vigour that is hardly surprising.

To me this comes back to the main point that the onus is on the purchaser to check.

Customer service really ought to come first. A reminder that a railcard is about to expire is perfectly-reasonable given the consequences of not having a valid one.

 

[Titfield]

Customer service really ought to come first. A reminder that a railcard is about to expire is perfectly-reasonable given the consequences of not having a valid one.

Yes I agree but given the problems of creating and maintaining the requisite database it is prudent of "customers" to adopt a belt and braces approach and set up their own reminder system.

I do feel that the GDPR Regulations have created such a mess, partly I have to say by some companies unleashing a torrent of marketing emails, that what would be a very sensible email / communication to be sent to customers is not sent.