1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Lewlew]

People have commented about the significant reuse of old parts being drab, I'd assume this is to cut costs given 92 stock are next in line for replacement under NTfL. Yes, I know Bakerloo stock is older and is in more need, however my understanding is TfL are prioritising Central for replacement first due to the higher usage rates (even after considering usage reductions from XR)

NTfL (New Tube for London) has not been called that for a while now, it’s Deep Tube Upgrade Project. The only trains on order are for the Piccadilly. With potential follow on orders for Bakerloo, Waterloo & City and Central lines in that priority order.

They’ve decided to do a major refurb on the 92ts instead, new traction packages, train management systems, lighting, LED screens etc which will see them going for quite a few more years yet.

Although it has been said that they can’t afford new trains for the Bakerloo until the extension has been built.

There were also fresh talks (in 2021 ish) of buying a new fleet of trains for the Jubilee as they could do with a few more, then send some 96s to the Bakerloo to replace all the 72s and the rest to the Northern to supplement the similar 95s.

 

[Dstock7080]

Some good news from this project, the first 8-car train for passenger service transferred yesterday from Acton Works to Ruislip depot.
Train will now undergo final maintenance and training prior to entering service later this year.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Some good news from this project, the first 8-car train for passenger service transferred yesterday from Acton Works to Ruislip depot.
Train will now undergo final maintenance and training prior to entering service later this year.

Which four units is this train consisted of, please?

 

[Dstock7080]

Which four units is this train consisted of, please?

91001 was the east-end unit, pictures show persons standing in front of all numbers!
TrackerNet unable to show leading numbers as Test Train crew using handhelds.
- Final position of CIS display and surround
- LED lighting in centre and over adverts.

 

[rebmcr]

NTfL (New Tube for London) has not been called that for a while now, it’s Deep Tube Upgrade Project.

The amount of fanfare TfL devoted to the New Tube for London name means it is unreasonable to expect everyone to cease using it. Especially as it remains unambiguous, and an accurate description of the project.

 

[Wolfie]

The amount of fanfare TfL devoted to the New Tube for London name means it is unreasonable to expect everyone to cease using it. Especially as it remains unambiguous, and an accurate description of the project.

It's all politics..... That was Boris Johnson's pet name for the programme..... Rebranding is unsurprising - see the so-called "Boris bikes" when it was Ken Livingstone's administration that did all of the work....

Editted to add: it isn't even unambiguous either - had it been "New Tube stock for London" l might have agreed but the chosen name could have easily been referring to a network refresh programme or a new tube line.

 

[rebmcr]

it isn't even unambiguous either

Indeed, in a wider context. I was thinking in terms of 'things people know are/were active projects', in which I don't expect anyone to mistake NTfL for anything other than its original meaning.

 

[Mikey C]

It would be bizarre to spend all this money on the 92s, to then replace them before the geriatric 72s!

 

[Recessio]

Is it likely that these 92 stock will stay on the Central, for the rest of their post-refurbishment life, until being replaced by the NTfL 24 stock? I.e. This refurbishment is just a stop-gap measure to keep them going for long enough until funds are available for replacement Central line trains, rather than this being a more open-ended mid-life refurbishment with an eye to future redeployment?

It would be bizarre to spend all this money on the 92s, to then replace them before the geriatric 72s!

Weirder things have happened, look at the 1983 stock going way before their time while 59 stock was still clattering around!

 

[rebmcr]

Is it likely that these 92 stock will stay on the Central, for the rest of their post-refurbishment life, until being replaced by the NTfL 24 stock?

I believe they have to do so, there is something different about the heights of conductor rails on the Central line which makes it a unique loading gauge.

 

[Dstock7080]

I believe they have to do so, there is something different about the heights of conductor rails on the Central line which makes it a unique loading gauge.

Only in the Central London tunnel section.
‘92 Stock could run on other Lines and indeed the train mentioned above in post #214 moved from Acton to Ruislip.

 

[Mikey C]

Realistically, the only line the 92s could run on would be the Bakerloo (after reducing to 7 cars), but it would be fairly pointless

 

[100andthirty]

Central line trains were designed as 4x2-car pairs. 2x2-car for W&C was easy. Removing one car from a pair is not!

I can see no realistic prospect of Central line trains moving to any other line before they're replaced and no other line has enough trains/long enough trains to cascade to the Central line.

 

[Wivenswold]

I wouldn't assume that a full refurbishment means they 92s have a long life on the Underground ahead of them. The D stock didn't.

 

[Recessio]

I wouldn't assume that a full refurbishment means they 92s have a long life on the Underground ahead of them. The D stock didn't.

Very good point. And the fact the D stock were gotten rid of early, to allow for one big push to replace all subsurface stock at once, bears similarity to the prospect of getting the Central, Picadilly, Bakerloo and W&C lines all using 24ts (or variants of), even if that means the 92 would be binned much sooner into their lives than other stock would.

 

[Lewlew]

There is a severe lack of money going around nowadays

 

[Dstock7080]

I wouldn't assume that a full refurbishment means they 92s have a long life on the Underground ahead of them. The D stock didn't.

D Stock didn’t receive the full extent of the refurbishment proposed, changes to the draft screens and work in the cab wasn’t proceeded with.
Agreed, it was still very thorough.

 

[notverydeep]

Which four units is this train consisted of, please?

By a process of elimination, I think the four units are 91001 93054 93176 and 91201. The other units shown as out of service and part of the CLIP works are all shown as four unit, eight car formations other than these four (and we know 91001 is one of them from the photos). However, if anyone can actually see the train at Ruislip, feel free to correct this!

 

[Dstock7080]

possibly as a result of the ongoing CLIP and release of trains, new temporary timetable from 5 June 2023:

new temporary timetable TTN88/23 5 June 2023
Due to long term train cancellations, the following temporary service arrangements will apply and supersede Working Timetable 70, until further notice.
6 trains have been withdrawn from the weekday timetable of WTT70. This is comprised of 3 trains which operate throughout the traffic day and 3 trains which operate in the AM peak only.
2 out of the 6 trains are cancelled from after the PM peak to close of traffic.
Existing trains have been rescheduled to minimise the impact of wide intervals that have opened up from the cancelled train paths. However some wider than usual intervals will remain in certain parts of the timetable, due to pathing constraints. Intervals are to be regulated and services adjusted where necessary.
In consequence of the re-allocation of Signalling Trip numbers and Routeing information, the whole Timetable is published in this notice.

 

[setdown]

I was expecting a bigger refresh internally, however I think the main thing that will make a difference is just tidying up the presentation of what's already there. The 92s have fallen off a cliff, so much internal graffiti and etched glass that's just not being sorted. The seats are pretty threadbare too. If these get sorted, it would bring a massive improvement in ambience.

 

[bramling]

I was expecting a bigger refresh internally, however I think the main thing that will make a difference is just tidying up the presentation of what's already there. The 92s have fallen off a cliff, so much internal graffiti and etched glass that's just not being sorted. The seats are pretty threadbare too. If these get sorted, it would bring a massive improvement in ambience.

What would really help in terms of ambience is replacing the awful Barman moquette, even if it’s just changing it to a different colour version. The blue version has never worked well on the 92 stock, it totally clashes with the rest of the interior, and manages to look utterly drab at the same time.

 

[43066]

What would really help in terms of ambience is replacing the awful Barman moquette, even if it’s just changing it to a different colour version. The blue version has never worked well on the 92 stock, it totally clashes with the rest of the interior, and manages to look utterly drab at the same time.

It does look pretty awful.

Not one to specify on your overpriced LT museum shop cushions!

I went on a 92 stock train for a first time in ages the other day and they really are in a dire state. They make SE networkers look like Bellmond Pullman!

 

[Recessio]

What would really help in terms of ambience is replacing the awful Barman moquette, even if it’s just changing it to a different colour version. The blue version has never worked well on the 92 stock, it totally clashes with the rest of the interior, and manages to look utterly drab at the same time.

Agreed. They changed the colouring to match the line colours for the Bakerloo and it worked really well. Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to do that here, given the need to update seats for cleanliness and clearer priority seats?

 

[Goldfish62]

Judging by the installed perch areas I'm surprised they are sticking with the blue Barman moquette, it's never looked right on the Central stock.

Agreed. It was adapted well for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines. I certainly did read somewhere last year that a red version was planned for the Central. Shame it's not happening.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Agreed. It was adapted well for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines. I certainly did read somewhere last year that a red version was planned for the Central. Shame it's not happening.

Yes its a shame
Are the existing seat covers/cushions even being replaced? In these photos (unless it's the light) you can tell between the new perch area and existing seating moquette.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes its a shame
Are the existing seat covers/cushions even being replaced? In these photos (unless it's the light) you can tell between the new perch area and existing seating moquette.

Wouldn't surprise if it wasn't, to be honest.

I know from an inside source last year that due to TfL's financial problems the whole project was in some trouble so there's doubtless been a lot of descoping.

 

[bramling]

I went on a 92 stock train for a first time in ages the other day and they really are in a dire state. They make SE networkers look like Bellmond Pullman!

I’m always glad maintenance (and indeed ownership) of the Northern Line fleet is with Alstom. For all the stick Alstom get, and even if the contractual relationship is cut-throat, the 95 stock is far and away the best maintained fleet on LU.

 

[Mikey C]

The 92 stock seating will be low and uncomfortable, whatever moquette covers them!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Why were the Central Line trains, when refurbished about 10 years ago, given a less aesthetically pleasing appearance than they had done previously?

I mean, the removal of the darkened front ends to a standard all read design just doesn't look right on those trains, and the removal of the red moquette, which fit in with the colour of the grab poles, to the light blue seating pattern which has always been a colour clash, it's puzzling to me.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Why were the Central Line trains, when refurbished about 10 years ago, given a less aesthetically pleasing appearance than they had done previously?

I mean, the removal of the darkened front ends to a standard all read design just doesn't look right on those trains, and the removal of the red moquette, which fit in with the colour of the grab poles, to the light blue seating pattern which has always been a colour clash, it's puzzling to me.

All this is cosmetic, the current refurbishments are to extend the service life of the units by changing their traction packages and adding on board displays