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19th July Lockdown Easing - Observations and Compliance

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Bikeman78

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I’m not convinced it is. It feels more like an order to keep up appearances given the sheer number. I mean, why would a driver otherwise jump out of the cab, put on a mask, walk to the other end of the train via an open air platform (such as Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth) before jumping in the cab again. It’s bonkers and they’re not isolated incidents
Even in Wales there is no longer a requirement to wear them on open platforms, although that is simply the legislation catching up with the reality.
 
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I commuted into London for the first time in 4 months last week. I surprised to get on a train around 7.45 in the morning and find it 50-60% empty. Even by the time we'd stopped at the last station before Waterloo it was still only about 60% full in terms of seats occupied. I was one of the few unmasked but given the numbers on the train it would difficult to argue that not wearing one got me a buffer seat next to me. In the evening at around 6.15pm I got a fast train home with 2+2 seating which was only around a 1/3 full when leaving Waterloo. Again most people were in masks and there was no pair of seats occupied in my carriage. The whole thing left me wondering about how sustainable it is for a train operator to be operating a 4 train an hour service when those trains are regularly half empty.

I also went to the Test Match at the Oval on Sunday which was more encouraging starting on the tube where mask usage was at most 60%. Once in the ground we were encouraged to wear masks while going to your seat and around the concourses although even this was only at a level of 15-20% which was also encouraging.

I've got to the point where the only time I need a mask is if I'm visiting the construction site offices where you still need to wear one whilst moving around the office. Thankfully it's not mandated while sitting at your desk or in a meeting. Oddly it's also not mandated out on the site itself which given it's a massive great building being fitted out with hundreds of people working in it on a daily basis seems odd as surely the office should be the same as the site or vice versa.
 

yorksrob

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Most seats now taken on my evening commute from Leeds, with plenty in the vestibules.
 

Horizon22

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I commuted into London for the first time in 4 months last week. I surprised to get on a train around 7.45 in the morning and find it 50-60% empty. Even by the time we'd stopped at the last station before Waterloo it was still only about 60% full in terms of seats occupied. I was one of the few unmasked but given the numbers on the train it would difficult to argue that not wearing one got me a buffer seat next to me. In the evening at around 6.15pm I got a fast train home with 2+2 seating which was only around a 1/3 full when leaving Waterloo. Again most people were in masks and there was no pair of seats occupied in my carriage. The whole thing left me wondering about how sustainable it is for a train operator to be operating a 4 train an hour service when those trains are regularly half empty

Well I would suggest if it continues in the medium to long-term (6-12 months and onward) then it isn’t. Hence why SWR is consulting on some service reductions.

That being said the off-peak used to cart around a lot of fresh air pre-pandemic too and services were kept fairly regular. As others have suggested a baseline Saturday timetable with a few peak extras might be a good starting point for London & SE operators going forward but it’s hard to tell yet.
 

takno

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Well I would suggest if it continues in the medium to long-term (6-12 months and onward) then it isn’t. Hence why SWR is consulting on some service reductions.

That being said the off-peak used to cart around a lot of fresh air pre-pandemic too and services were kept fairly regular. As others have suggested a baseline Saturday timetable with a few peak extras might be a good starting point for London & SE operators going forward but it’s hard to tell yet.
There were plenty of places pre-pandemic where the Saturday service failed to meet Saturday demand. The assumption that off-peak travel isn't going to recover over the next few months is a bit defeatist. By the time any plans go into effect it will be about time to bring things back up to normal levels
 

Butts

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Are TFL not taking measures to enforce the ban ?

I was in London today on my way back from Ireland and I noticed quite a few maskless passengers.

Has Khan been questioned on the sense in imposing a ban that is not being enforced ?

Perhaps he should speak to BA - 100% compliance on 4 Flights over the last few days.
 

HST274

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Perhaps he should speak to BA - 100% compliance on 4 Flights over the last few days.
Quick question- are you surprised by the full compliance on planes? I only ask because you have mentioned it a few times.
 

yorkie

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I’m not convinced it is. It feels more like an order to keep up appearances given the sheer number. I mean, why would a driver otherwise jump out of the cab, put on a mask, walk to the other end of the train via an open air platform (such as Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth) before jumping in the cab again. It’s bonkers and they’re not isolated incidents
This looks like virtue signalling to me.

The vast majority of people are not interested in wearing masks and only do so when they feel pressured by others. It was nice today experiencing a pretty normal working day; arguably the most normal I've had in around 18 months, and seeing hundreds of unmasked people :)

Are TFL not taking measures to enforce the ban ?
Their request to get the Byelaws changed was turned down. Brilliant! I wish I could have seen Khan's face when he saw the news :lol:

Has Khan been questioned on the sense in imposing a ban that is not being enforced ?
People need to stop giving him an easy ride. If I was to question him, I'd give him a hard time and he wouldn't be able to duck some important questions.

Perhaps he should speak to BA - 100% compliance on 4 Flights over the last few days.
Flights are rather different, but again it is all about virtue signalling. On a BA flight I did a couple of weeks ago they gave out crisps to everyone, which everyone was happy to partake in, and of course this made people thirsty so everyone was unmasked for some time. I'd like to thank whoever had the idea to do this; a great move :D It is clear that the vast majority of people only wear masks because they have to.

High compliance of wearing flimsy masks and then taking them off to eat and drink for a fair chunk of the journey is not really comparable to 'disobeying' a distant jumped-up shouty politician by not wearing a mask on a tube train. But none of it makes sod all difference to infection rates and at the end of the day if you are a vaccinated healthy person it is all a silly charade. Once we reach endemic equlibirum we will look back and wonder why so many people went along with nonsense and laugh at the nonsensical nature of it all.
 
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Butts

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Quick question- are you surprised by the full compliance on planes? I only ask because you have mentioned it a few times.

To a degree yes, it seems strange the wall has been breached on the Bus and Train but not on the Plane - or even in the Airport.

I have not seen anyone without a mask on in the dozen or so flights I have made on BA over the last few weeks, surely some Flyers must be exempt ?

If the same people ignoring them on other forms of Transport feel free to waiver the requirement why are Aircraft so different ?

As people have mentioned the air-recirculation on board makes them safer why the reticence to deviate from the norm in a theoretically lower risk environment.

I did see a few people in LCY yesterday maskless in the departure area so perhaps some progress is on the horizon.
 

yorkie

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To a degree yes, it seems strange the wall has been breached on the Bus and Train but not on the Plane - or even in the Airport.

I have not seen anyone without a mask on in the dozen or so flights I have made on BA over the last few weeks, surely some Flyers must be exempt ?
It's not really that surprising as a plane is a completely different environment. Airlines have made it very difficult to claim exemptions though I understand things are changing in this area

People do seem to be keen to remove masks for food and drinks and many airlines seem to actively encourage this (which I find amusing, and shows how much if a charade this all is, but I absolutely do welcome it).

If the same people ignoring them on other forms of Transport feel free to waiver the requirement why are Aircraft so different ?
Some airlines have refused to accept exceptions except with doctors notes (which are not available) but some are starting to allow self certification now.

As people have mentioned the air-recirculation on board makes them safer why the reticence to deviate from the norm in a theoretically lower risk environment.
There is no logical answer for that; it's a virtue signalling charade.

I did see a few people in LCY yesterday maskless in the departure area so perhaps some progress is on the horizon.
Yep I went abroad recently and loads of people were maskless in the terminal. Progress is being made but bear in mind most people don't want to rock the boat and will go along with the nonsense I'd that's what most others are doing.

For many, masks are just for takeoff and landing. The middle part of the flight is for consumption of snacks so the mask can be removed.

You couldn't make this nonsense up if you tried; it's quite amusing really.
 

Horizon22

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There were plenty of places pre-pandemic where the Saturday service failed to meet Saturday demand. The assumption that off-peak travel isn't going to recover over the next few months is a bit defeatist. By the time any plans go into effect it will be about time to bring things back up to normal levels

Maybe Saturday is the wrong comparison. Anyway some sort of base off-peak throughout the whole day at regular intervals with just a few peak extras (which are generally inefficient and more likely to lead to performance issues) should suffice but we should certainly give demand a chance to grow further & stabilise
 

Highlandspring

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To a degree yes, it seems strange the wall has been breached on the Bus and Train but not on the Plane - or even in the Airport.

I have not seen anyone without a mask on in the dozen or so flights I have made on BA over the last few weeks, surely some Flyers must be exempt ?

If the same people ignoring them on other forms of Transport feel free to waiver the requirement why are Aircraft so different ?

The trouble with planes is that the word of the cabin crew and captain is law (literally, through the various Air Navigation Orders) and they’re very twitchy about ‘disruptive‘ passengers. As per the replies above you are very unlikely to even get on a plane in the first place without your face being covered due to the airlines’ discriminatory policies.

If you start ignoring instructions from the crew once you are on board then you’re liable to end up lying face down on the floor with your hands cable tied behind your back, then being removed and detained by armed police at whatever obscure hellhole they decide is approriate to kick you off. You’ll then be sued for the financially ruinous cost of the diversion and banned from flying with that airline for life. That’s how they obtain near universal compliance will all sorts of aeroplane rules; when was the last time you saw someone spark up a fag on board for example?

I won’t be going on a plane until all the covid theatre nonsense is dropped, which I suspect means I’ll never be going on a plane again in my life.
 
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AlterEgo

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To a degree yes, it seems strange the wall has been breached on the Bus and Train but not on the Plane - or even in the Airport.

I have not seen anyone without a mask on in the dozen or so flights I have made on BA over the last few weeks, surely some Flyers must be exempt ?
People who are exempt are generally not travelling by plane.
If the same people ignoring them on other forms of Transport feel free to waiver the requirement why are Aircraft so different ?
You get into a LOT more trouble for refusing to follow staff instructions on an aircraft, for a start, and it's a closed system so denial of boarding is a real and pretty unwanted prospect for people.
 

kingston_toon

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Flying is one of my favourite pastimes but sitting on a plane with a damp rag across my face really isn't pleasant. I'll do what I can to always have a beer in my hand to minimise the amount of time I have to wear a mask but I'm desperately counting down the days until the first airline removes the mandate, at least to / from countries where that's possible. Having seen how low compliance has fallen on National Rail and LU, I suspect this would be a popular move.
 

martin2345uk

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Very high mask compliance on the GA service into Liverpool Street right now possibly in part due to the fact they’re still saying masks are bloody required on their recorded announcements.
 

DelayRepay

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I went to Tesco last night and thought mask wearing was actually higher than it's been over the last few weeks. Normally as an unmasked person I have not felt out of place, but last night I very much felt like the odd one out (although no dirty looks or comments were received).

Maybe it was just the time of day or a coincidence.
 

DustyBin

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I got on a reasonably busy Bakerloo Line train yesterday and at least 80% of people were wearing masks in my carriage (which seemed unusually high). I changed onto the Victoria Line at Oxford Circus and got on a similarly loaded train and less than 20% of people were masked. It’s strange!

“Sheep syndrome” seems highly prevalent in London; people actively look at what others are doing and follow the majority. I’ve seen it a few times on trains and even in pubs where people put a mask on as they board/enter and then remove it within a couple of seconds when they realise nobody else is wearing one.
 

Mojo

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Even in Wales there is no longer a requirement to wear them on open platforms, although that is simply the legislation catching up with the reality.
There was never a legal requirement to wear them on open platforms in England.

I got on a reasonably busy Bakerloo Line train yesterday and at least 80% of people were wearing masks in my carriage (which seemed unusually high). I changed onto the Victoria Line at Oxford Circus and got on a similarly loaded train and less than 20% of people were masked. It’s strange!

“Sheep syndrome” seems highly prevalent in London; people actively look at what others are doing and follow the majority. I’ve seen it a few times on trains and even in pubs where people put a mask on as they board/enter and then remove it within a couple of seconds when they realise nobody else is wearing one.
I know I’ve said this before but I really can’t seem to work it out and would love to get an idea of the psychology behind it.

There doesn’t genuinely seem to be any pattern that I can make out of gender, age, frailty, skin colour, clothing, time, job, location, or anything else. Indeed, on Wednesday I was on a train and before I got on (and after I disembarked) there was a man (a decorator Id assume as he had paint rollers and other similar type equipment poking out of a bag covered in specs of paint) and at no point in the journey did he wear a mask. I boarded the same train yesterday and he was there in exactly the same seat and part way through the journey he took a fabric covering out of his pocket, picked off the bits of pocket dust, and put it on. The train was less busy yesterday than the day before.
 
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DustyBin

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I know I’ve said this before but I really can’t seem to work it out and would love to get an idea of the psychology behind it.

There doesn’t genuinely seem to be any pattern that I can make out of gender, age, frailty, skin colour, clothing, time, job, location, or anything else. Indeed, on Wednesday I was on a train and before I got on (and after I disembarked) there was a man (a decorator Id assume as he had paint rollers and other similar type equipment poking out of a bag covered in specs of paint) and at no point in the journey did he wear a mask. I boarded the same train yesterday and he was there in exactly the same seat and part way through the journey he took a fabric covering out of his pocket, picked off the bits of pocket dust, and put it on. The train was less busy yesterday than the day before.

I know exactly what you mean, it really does seem random. It does appear that mask wearing in general is waning though, slowly but surely, which is good to see!
 

Horizon22

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There was never a legal requirement to wear them on open platforms in England.


I know I’ve said this before but I really can’t seem to work it out and would love to get an idea of the psychology behind it.

There doesn’t genuinely seem to be any pattern that I can make out of gender, age, frailty, skin colour, clothing, time, job, location, or anything else. Indeed, on Wednesday I was on a train and before I got on (and after I disembarked) there was a man (a decorator Id assume as he had paint rollers and other similar type equipment poking out of a bag covered in specs of paint) and at no point in the journey did he wear a mask. I boarded the same train yesterday and he was there in exactly the same seat and part way through the journey he took a fabric covering out of his pocket, picked off the bits of pocket dust, and put it on. The train was less busy yesterday than the day before.

I totally agree! Have been taking the same train 4 days in a row with relatively similar boarding but the mask wearing has varied considerably. I think it is the “sheep phenomenon” (I’m sure it has a proper scientific term) whereby people try to conform to the norm. Of course how the norm is set up is interesting - would depend on the mask wearing at the origin or particularly strong individuals who will/won’t wear a mask regardless of what the majority are doing.

People generally don’t want to me see as “different” or “other” and will fit in as best they can. This was always likely to happen once it became more of a personal choice and personally, I’m not that bothered by the ranges. I do think mark usage is notably trending downwards though.
 

davetheguard

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In Fridays Standard it says that the government have turned down Sadiq Kahn's desire to put compulsory mask wearing into bylaws
Quite why the fool ever imagined that the government having removed all legal obligation to wear masks would allow him to reintroduce one is anyone guess
The 400 or so enforcement officers employed by TFL do not discuss mask wearing with people in any event.

This is very, very good news. I've been a bit slow and only just picked up on this post from last Sunday.

I've been wanting to have a trip to the London for the first time in year & a half; looks like I'll now be able to do it. The Oyster card needs updating with new priv card details & I'm going up to Reading one day next week anyway, so I can set off slightly earlier for Paddington & combine the two!

As an aside, does anyone have a link to the Evening Standard article jumble refers to above; I've failed miserably to find it online. More: I've just been looking at TfL's website & Conditions of Carriage, and it is still saying face coverings MUST be worn, unless exempt. So which is it?
 
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OLJR

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I have not seen anyone without a mask on in the dozen or so flights I have made on BA over the last few weeks, surely some Flyers must be exempt ?

I flew BA from Glasgow to Belfast and back without a mask. No bother at the airport in either direction. Asked if I had a mask during boarding at Glasgow, I said I was exempt and the agent said fine. Asked if I had a mask at the plane door in Belfast, again I said I was exempt and the cabin crew said fine. Gold Guest List flying Club if that matters, but I don’t think it does because they didn’t know that when they asked. Crew very friendly on both short flights.
 

adc82140

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I totally agree! Have been taking the same train 4 days in a row with relatively similar boarding but the mask wearing has varied considerably. I think it is the “sheep phenomenon” (I’m sure it has a proper scientific term) whereby people try to conform to the norm. Of course how the norm is set up is interesting - would depend on the mask wearing at the origin or particularly strong individuals who will/won’t wear a mask regardless of what the majority are doing.

People generally don’t want to me see as “different” or “other” and will fit in as best they can. This was always likely to happen once it became more of a personal choice and personally, I’m not that bothered by the ranges. I do think mark usage is notably trending downwards though.
I know a lot of people who say they "read the room" before they decide whether to wear a mask. So perhaps if the first person on the train doesn't then no one else will, but if the first person on does, others follow suit. No scientific logic in their behaviour, but when was this about science?
 

bramling

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I know a lot of people who say they "read the room" before they decide whether to wear a mask. So perhaps if the first person on the train doesn't then no one else will, but if the first person on does, others follow suit. No scientific logic in their behaviour, but when was this about science?

One could probably write a psychology thesis on masks. I definitely agree a lot of people follow the crowd, so if you get one or two hardcores first into a place then it will probably result in more following, especially as some of the hardcores make a point of sizing up everyone else by staring round in a passive-aggressive way.

There’s also some other interesting behaviours, not least on trains the terrible quandary some people clearly face when they don’t want to be near someone who isn’t in a mask, but *do* want their favourite seat!

I was really hoping we’d be rid of all this by now. As has been articulated on here very well, why these people don’t just get a proper mask is beyond me. Perhaps because that might actually *solve* their perceived issue?!
 
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35B

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I flew BA from Glasgow to Belfast and back without a mask. No bother at the airport in either direction. Asked if I had a mask during boarding at Glasgow, I said I was exempt and the agent said fine. Asked if I had a mask at the plane door in Belfast, again I said I was exempt and the cabin crew said fine. Gold Guest List flying Club if that matters, but I don’t think it does because they didn’t know that when they asked. Crew very friendly on both short flights.
Worth note that this was a flight within the UK, and where masking rules were similar at both ends.
 

yorksrob

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I suppose it's a sign of personal normality that I'm currently more worried about getting norovirus when out and about than coronavirus.
 

jumble

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This is very, very good news. I've been a bit slow and only just picked up on this post from last Sunday.

I've been wanting to have a trip to the London for the first time in year & a half; looks like I'll now be able to do it. The Oyster card needs updating with new priv card details & I'm going up to Reading one day next week anyway, so I can set off slightly earlier for Paddington & combine the two!

As an aside, does anyone have a link to the Evening Standard article jumble refers to above; I've failed miserably to find it online. More: I've just been looking at TfL's website & Conditions of Carriage, and it is still saying face coverings MUST be worn, unless exempt. So which is it?
I could not find it on line either
It is in TFLs conditions of carriage and so the posters say that masks must be worn
However all that can be done is to throw you off the network which is not very effective in central London unless they propose follow you for the rest of the day to stop you working 200 meters to the next station and getting on there so by and larg ethey dont bother
If you say you are exempt the conversation ends in any case

Kahn was trying to make it a bylaw so BTP could enforce and fine people which they state is not their business at the moment
 

davetheguard

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Kahn was trying to make it a bylaw so BTP could enforce and fine people which they state is not their business at the moment

Thanks for your reply. It seems I've muddled bylaws with conditions of carriage.

Well, as I've no desire to be threatened with being removed, or to have to tell lies to get around it, I think I'll stick to my policy of not visiting London at present; which of course also means not giving any money to TfL, or spending any money in shops, restaurants, tourist attractions or pubs.

I'll return to London, when I'm not being treated as a nuisance, or made to feel like some sort of criminal. I know and love London, but not under those conditions.
 

big_rig

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Thanks for your reply. It seems I've muddled bylaws with conditions of carriage.

Well, as I've no desire to be threatened with being removed, or to have to tell lies to get around it, I think I'll stick to my policy of not visiting London at present; which of course also means not giving any money to TfL, or spending any money in shops, restaurants, tourist attractions or pubs.

I'll return to London, when I'm not being treated as a nuisance, or made to feel like some sort of criminal. I know and love London, but not under those conditions.
Having made a hundred or so (unmasked) tube journeys since the introduction of the condition of carriage I can guarantee you I have never:

1) Seen any punters accosted by the not-police whatever they are stationed at big stations;
2) Seen the not-police who have been at one or two of my interchange stations on many of the journeys I've taken ever do anything except natter to each other at the gateline while not even looking at punters (whilst in many cases not wearing masks themselves).

I wouldn't let it worry you. Enforcement is non-existent.
 
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