1st (and hopefully last) penalty notice

[VideozVideoz]

I was intercepted at Manchester Victoria train station in November by revenue protection having travelled from Salford Crescent. I had purchased a ticket on the TfW app but due to a concert at the arena, the mobile network was not working so I could not download / show my ticket. As a result, I had no choice but to give my details so I could get through the barrier. The guy said, as long as I had a ticket there would be nothing to worry about. Which I agreed with.

I got a letter from northern railway debt recovery team asking for information on personal details and stations travelled between which I provided on email. I even sent the ticket reference number but not the QR code because it shows as expired on the TfW app.

Northern replied saying they need the QR code and to contact my ticket issuer. In the meantime I have now received a fixed penalty notice (which was delayed by 1 week due to the post strikes) and I now have days left to pay it. The letter states I travelled from Manchester Vic to Manchester Vic (which is most def wrong!) and that I owe a fare of £0.01 plus the £90 penalty fare if I want to avoid prosecution.

Now here is my conundrum. I know I purchased a valid ticket, TfW have just replied to say they cannot send me the QR code because the ticket wasn’t activated (I couldn’t download and activate it due to the data network being overloaded as a result of 10,000+ ppl being at Manchester arena).

Am I better off just paying up? Or risk fighting my case in court, bearing in mind their letter incorrectly states I travelled from MCV to MCV. I also don’t think a £0.01 fare even exists in the database does it?? I am thinking about paying the £90.01 today but it’s like admitting I didn’t purchase a ticket when I did. Dunno if it’s worth noting but Northern don’t seem interested in my reasoning and are adamant they want the QR code

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I was intercepted at Manchester Victoria train station in November by revenue protection having travelled from Salford Crescent. I had purchased a ticket on the TfW app but due to a concert at the arena, the mobile network was not working so I could not download / show my ticket.

Can I just check what seems like an inconsistency? You started your journey at Crescent, but the mobile network was busy because of a concert at the arena.

Which arena is this? I can't think of one near to Crescent (although there is one at Victoria) and the general requirement is that a passenger should have their ticket before starting their journey. So I can't see how a congested mobile network would have caused you a problem at Crescent.

 

[scrapy]

Salford Crescent has ticket barriers which are generally staffed from first train to at least mid evening (certainally well after most concert start times). How did you manage to start your journey there without a ticket? Were the barriers left open? What time was your ticket purchased from TFW? Was this before or after you boarded the train at Salford Crescent?

The out of court settlement you were offered would have been because a travel incident report was issued and sent to the prosecutions department rather than a penalty fare issued (that would have been £20).

As Fawkes cat has stated, it is your responsibility to download (and activate if an M ticket) your ticket before any travel commences. This should have been done before any travel commenced at Salford Crescent, whether or not the gates were open so shouldn't be an issue at Victoria. If you haven't done this, you legally haven't got a ticket so Northern would have an easy win if they make a bylaws prosecution.

 

[VideozVideoz]

I was already on the train and purchased an additional ticket from sAlford crescent to Victoria as my plans changed just as I was about to get off. The two stations are literally 0.5MILES apart so yes the issue at the arena caused me the problem en-route

 

[scrapy]

I was already on the train and purchased an additional ticket from sAlford crescent to Victoria as my plans changed just as I was about to get off. The two stations are literally 0.5MILES apart so yes the issue at the arena caused me the problem en-route

Ok, so where did you actually start your journey? Did you have a valid ticket from your origin to Salford Crescent? Did you also purchase this ticket on the app? If not, how did you pay for it, was it purchased from a ticket office, a machine or on a train? Did you show this ticket or make mention of it to the inspector?

Was the ticket from Salford Central or Crescent? Salford Central is about 0.5 miles from Victoria and Crescent about 1.5 miles

 

[VideozVideoz]

Ok, so where did you actually start your journey? Did you have a valid ticket from your origin to Salford Crescent? Did you also purchase this ticket on the app? If not, how did you pay for it, was it purchased from a ticket office, a machine or on a train? Did you show this ticket or make mention of it to the inspector?

Originally Bolton and yes I had a paper ticket purchased at ticket machine but I no longer have that. Guard didn’t come down after sAlford crescent so no they weren’t aware of my additional purchase

It sounds like the writings on the wall and I should just pay the penalty fare before I get summoned to court

The out of court settlement you were offered would have been because a travel incident report was issued and sent to the prosecutions department rather than a penalty fare issued (that would have been £20).

My letter says fixed penalty notice which to me is still 1 of the same thing

 

[AlterEgo]

I was intercepted at Manchester Victoria train station in November by revenue protection having travelled from Salford Crescent. I had purchased a ticket on the TfW app but due to a concert at the arena, the mobile network was not working so I could not download / show my ticket. As a result, I had no choice but to give my details so I could get through the barrier. The guy said, as long as I had a ticket there would be nothing to worry about. Which I agreed with.

I got a letter from northern railway debt recovery team asking for information on personal details and stations travelled between which I provided on email. I even sent the ticket reference number but not the QR code because it shows as expired on the TfW app.

Northern replied saying they need the QR code and to contact my ticket issuer. In the meantime I have now received a fixed penalty notice (which was delayed by 1 week due to the post strikes) and I now have days left to pay it. The letter states I travelled from Manchester Vic to Manchester Vic (which is most def wrong!) and that I owe a fare of £0.01 plus the £90 penalty fare if I want to avoid prosecution.

Hmm! Do they explain how they calculated the fare of £0.01? Do you have any QR code at all - even a greyed out one, in the app? Do Northern anywhere say in their letter that if you send the QR code they will drop the matter?

I have some sympathy with the data issue - this is a known problem with crowds.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Hmm! Do they explain how they calculated the fare of £0.01? Do you have any QR code at all - even a greyed out one, in the app? Do Northern anywhere say in their letter that if you send the QR code they will drop the matter?

I have some sympathy with the data issue - this is a known problem with crowds.

Nope, no explanation other than (and I quote) “The circumstances alleged to constitute the offence are as follows: you travelled from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Victoria and failed to produce a valid ticket for your journey. The fare for this journey is £0.01.”

They have not said they will drop the matter if I send a QR code. And in my app, there is no greyed out code just says “ticket expired”

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm! Do they explain how they calculated the fare of £0.01? Do you have any QR code at all - even a greyed out one, in the app? Do Northern anywhere say in their letter that if you send the QR code they will drop the matter?

I have some sympathy with the data issue - this is a known problem with crowds.

However it is worth pointing out that an m-ticket, which sounds like what is involved here, is not valid at all until activated, so this should have been done immediately it was purchased and NOT at Victoria. Purchase and activation had to be complete before leaving Salford Crescent and the OP should have left the train there if it wasn't.

An interesting question, though, is whether a prosecution (rather than a Penalty Fare) would work in such a case. From a very brief read neither the Byelaws nor the RoRA appear to be infringed by travelling on an unactivated m-ticket, however there could be (probably is) relevant legal precedent which would lead me to suspect paying the £90.01 (!) is the best bet.

 

[scrapy]

Originally Bolton and yes I had a paper ticket purchased at ticket machine but I no longer have that. Guard didn’t come down after sAlford crescent so no they weren’t aware of my additional purchase

It sounds like the writings on the wall and I should just pay the penalty fare before I get summoned to court


My letter says fixed penalty notice which to me is still 1 of the same thing

Ok if you purchased a ticket at the ticket machine at Bolton, these are card only so you will at least have a financial record of making the payment on that date. You should also have a record of the payment made to TFW, whether or not you activated the ticket. Should you choose to go down the court route (which I would not recommend) You would at least be able to prove that whilst you were unable to provide a valid ticket (this is a bylaws offence and doesn't require any proof of intent) you did not intend to avoid payment, therefore making a more serious RORA prosecution difficult for Northern.

The inspector will have known full well that you did not start your journey at Salford Crescent or Central. It is common for people arriving at barriered stations to buy the cheapest ticket just to open the barriers. They therefore filled out a travel incident report, rather than issuing a £20 penalty fare as they will have suspected deliberate fare evasion. Had you shown the ticket from Bolton you would probably have been given a £20 penalty or even given an excess.

Unfortunately as this TIR then requires costs for prosecutors to work on a potential court case, if Northern then believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute they may choose to offer a first time offender an out of court settlement, however will seek to recoup the costs they've incurred to do this. I would pay the £90 and be very careful in future as whilst Northern do offer these settlements, they are unlikely to do so for repeat offence.

 

[AlterEgo]

An interesting question, though, is whether a prosecution (rather than a Penalty Fare) would work in such a case. From a very brief read neither the Byelaws nor the RoRA appear to be infringed by travelling on an unactivated m-ticket, however there could be (probably is) relevant legal precedent which would lead me to suspect paying the £90.01 (!) is the best bet.

Isn't it simply that the OP failed to show a valid ticket?

Nope, no explanation other than (and I quote) “The circumstances alleged to constitute the offence are as follows: you travelled from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Victoria and failed to produce a valid ticket for your journey. The fare for this journey is £0.01.”

They have not said they will drop the matter if I send a QR code. And in my app, there is no greyed out code just says “ticket expired”

It's up to you how to proceed, but I might be tempted to reply asking for clarification on the journey alleged to have been made and how the fare of one penny has been calculated.

Else, you may feel it's less hassle and just simpler overall to pay the £90 as others suggest and try to exact justice after the fact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't it simply that the OP failed to show a valid ticket?


It's up to you how to proceed, but I might be tempted to reply asking for clarification on the journey alleged to have been made and how the fare of one penny has been calculated.

Else, you may feel it's less hassle and just simpler overall to pay the £90 as others suggest and try to exact justice after the fact.

Byelaw 18.2?

A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

I guess that was breached by the ticket not being activated, yes, didn't quite read it that way but I think you're right.

In that case paying the £90.01 (before they recalculate it to £90+fare at least!) might be prudent.

 

[scrapy]

An interesting question, though, is whether a prosecution (rather than a Penalty Fare) would work in such a case. From a very brief read neither the Byelaws nor the RoRA appear to be infringed by travelling on an unactivated m-ticket, however there could be (probably is) relevant legal precedent which would lead me to suspect paying the £90.01 (!) is the best bet

The OP does state that they were unable to download or activate it. They were therefore unable to show a ticket (activated or not) which is a bylaws offence.

 

[VideozVideoz]

I’ve reluctantly paid up. Is it possible to still appeal against it despite paying? I literally had 1-2 days left to absolve myself (I don’t know whether 14 days starts on the date of letter or the day after). I just feel that I have been backed into a corner because I had a ticket (albeit not activated) so I wasn’t trying to fare evade

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve reluctantly paid up. Is it possible to still appeal against it despite paying? I literally had 1-2 days left to absolve myself (I don’t know whether 14 days starts on the date of letter or the day after). I just feel that I have been backed into a corner because I had a ticket (albeit not activated) so I wasn’t trying to fare evade

I would chalk it up to experience. If you are mid journey and decide to extend your journey, you must purchase and, if applicable, activate the extra ticket BEFORE the train departs the last station stop at which the existing one is valid. If you aren't able to do that you must leave the train there and sort it before boarding another. Thus the lack of signal at Victoria isn't really relevant - you had to do it before the train left Salford Crescent.

Further correspondence is just likely to result in £90.01 (!) being increased to £90 plus an Anytime Day Single from Salford Crescent to Victoria.

 

[Haywain]

I had a ticket (albeit not activated) so I wasn’t trying to fare evade

Unfortunately, a ticket that is not activated is not a ticket and it could still be refunded. Failing to present a ticket for that reason could be seen as attempting to evade the fare. As an aside to this, I and many others here would advise against purchasing from the TfW app as they sell mTickets rather than eTickets. The latter do not require activation and arrive in the form of a pdf either by email or within the app from which they are purchased.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Annoyingly for the OP, I believe that the Anytime Single fare from Bolton to Salford Crescent is exactly the same as from Bolton to Manchester Victoria.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ve reluctantly paid up. Is it possible to still appeal against it despite paying?

There is no formal appeal process for this sort of administrative disposal, unfortunately.

 

[island]

I’ve reluctantly paid up. Is it possible to still appeal against it despite paying? I literally had 1-2 days left to absolve myself (I don’t know whether 14 days starts on the date of letter or the day after). I just feel that I have been backed into a corner because I had a ticket (albeit not activated) so I wasn’t trying to fare evade

Paying the settlement is an acceptance of liability and there is no "appealing" thereafter. (This is different to the Penalty Fare system.)

 

[VideozVideoz]

Thanks guys, I’ll just put it down to experience but my intentions were legit. Just a bit of bad luck for me. Although you say I should have got off, I don’t know anyone who would do this realistically in practise. It seems ludicrous even though the guidelines are to buy before you board. I actually bought the ticket whilst at sAlford crescent. It took a while to process and then as the train approached Manchester, I could not activate it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks guys, I’ll just put it down to experience but my intentions were legit. Just a bit of bad luck for me. Although you say I should have got off, I don’t know anyone who would do this realistically in practise. It seems ludicrous even though the guidelines are to buy before you board.

Not guidelines. Actual law.

I actually bought the ticket whilst at sAlford crescent. It took a while to process and then as the train approached Manchester, I could not activate it

It needed, strictly speaking, to be bought before the doors closed. If RPIs had got on, you'd have been penalised in the same way.

 

[spag23]

I actually bought the ticket whilst at sAlford crescent.

Unfortunately it seems the OP didn't actually buy the ticket at Salford Crescent, but simply initiated the purchase process there. The sale never "went through" before departure.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Not guidelines. Actual law.



It needed, strictly speaking, to be bought before the doors closed. If RPIs had got on, you'd have been penalised in the same way.

Well, regardless, i’ve seen loads of people recently buy the ticket from the guard as he or she comes down the carriage. Tickets have been issued without any problem so people are still “breaking the law” based on the fact you HAVE to buy before you board. Let’s be honest though, I don’t think the majority of the public really understand that these are the rules.

 

[sheff1]

Key points to take from this are (i) do not buy using an app, such as TfW's, which requires a ticket to be activated (ii) if making a Bolton to Salford Crescent journey in the future always buy a ticket to Manchester as that is the same price (and is valid to leave the station at Salford Crescent if your plans don't change).

 

[WesternLancer]

Well, regardless, i’ve seen loads of people recently buy the ticket from the guard as he or she comes down the carriage. Tickets have been issued without any problem so people are still “breaking the law” based on the fact you HAVE to buy before you board. Let’s be honest though, I don’t think the majority of the public really understand that these are the rules.

Yes, there is a thread on here from not so long ago about the inconsistency you mention - guards selling tickets when they do a ticket check when in fact the vast majority of those passengers should now be getting Penalty Fares or worse, threats of court action unless payments made (as you got) - - which is what Revenue Protection staff would do if they got on the train and checked the tickets instead of the guard coming round - one has to be generally thankful that some people still get to buy on board without those punitive actions - but it is a problem that indeed many people who have got used to buying on board do not appreciate until they get on the wrong side of a revenue check by RPI staff or similar.

Lots of cases come up on here as a result.

Don't forge in future to claim Delay - Repay on any late trains you suffer from as a way of claiming back the sum you have now had to pay.

 

[Haywain]

there is a thread on here from not so long ago about the inconsistency you mention - guards selling tickets when they do a ticket check when in fact the vast majority of those passengers should now be getting Penalty Fares or worse, threats of court action unless payments made (as you got) - - which is what Revenue Protection staff would do if they got on the train and checked the tickets instead of the guard coming round - one has to be generally thankful that some people still get to buy on board without those punitive actions - but it is a problem that indeed many people who have got used to buying on board do not appreciate until they get on the wrong side of a revenue check by RPI staff or similar.

We have also had posts stating that guards (who cannot issue penalty fares) who remind people about buying before they board, and the possibility of penalty fares being issued, often find this results in abuse and aggression from the people they are trying to help. Which makes it understandable why they would just sell tickets.

 

[WesternLancer]

We have also had posts stating that guards (who cannot issue penalty fares) who remind people about buying before they board, and the possibility of penalty fares being issued, often find this results in abuse and aggression from the people they are trying to help. Which makes it understandable why they would just sell tickets.

Indeed. Well pointed out.

 

[Llanigraham]

I’ve reluctantly paid up. Is it possible to still appeal against it despite paying? I literally had 1-2 days left to absolve myself (I don’t know whether 14 days starts on the date of letter or the day after). I just feel that I have been backed into a corner because I had a ticket (albeit not activated) so I wasn’t trying to fare evade

As I am a regular TfW M-ticket user; their App does tell you that if the ticket is not activated then it is not valid, and in that case you will eventually be refunded the cost. Therefore you did not have a ticket.

 

[VideozVideoz]

As I am a regular TfW M-ticket user; their App does tell you that if the ticket is not activated then it is not valid, and in that case you will eventually be refunded the cost. Therefore you did not have a ticket.

Fair enough. So at the very least I get my £3.10 back?

To all: So assume I allowed this go to court, the fact that Northern were bringing in the case as a MCV - MCV journey at £0.01, what’s the likelihood this would have worked in my favour and been thrown out? Surely they couldn’t build a case on an invalid journey that had formed part of their official documentation to me?

 

[Watershed]

Fair enough. So at the very least I get my £3.10 back?

I'm not familiar with the TfW app so I can't say how it treats tickets that aren't activated or downloaded. But in principle they apply an administration fee of £10, so no refund would be due.

To all: So assume I allowed this go to court, the fact that Northern were bringing in the case as a MCV - MCV journey at £0.01, what’s the likelihood this would have worked in my favour and been thrown out? Surely they couldn’t build a case on an invalid journey that had formed part of their official documentation to me?

Assuming the ticket you did hold was issued specifically to Salford Crescent (rather than Manchester Central Zones etc.) then you didn't hold a valid ticket between Salford Crescent and Victoria. And if you didn't produce this ticket when exiting at Victoria, you committed an offence under Byelaw 18(2).

So they would have an 'open and shut' case unless they somehow messed up and don't have any records of where you travelled from (as the Byelaw 18(2) offence requires you to have travelled). The fact that they made a mistake in their settlement letter/offer wouldn't in any way have prejudiced a prosecution, had you failed to accept their settlement.

The long and short of it is that you made a mistake, and under the (arguably harsh) law, that constitutes an offence. Thus you were best off by accepting the settlement offer.