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2023 Israel - Hamas war

thenorthern

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In regards to the protest at stations I think they may end up counter productive rather like how the Just Stop Oil and Insulate Britain protests did.

I don't get why railway stations given that the railway industry has very few links to Israel or Palestine.
 
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birchesgreen

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In regards to the protest at stations I think they may end up counter productive rather like how the Just Stop Oil and Insulate Britain protests did.

I don't get why railway stations given that the railway industry has very few links to Israel or Palestine.
Big railway stations tend to be large centrally located public spaces, and indoor too which is useful on a day like today!
 

Taunton

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You obviously missed all the reports about the small group of Republic supporters who were arrested, then
Well, very often those arrested just say they were "protesting", as this man was. They omit they were blocking everyone, ignoring police commands to stop blocking everyone, ignoring being told they would be arrested if they didn't stop this, and all such. There's protests, and there's going along hoping to be arrested.

The fact that "all the reports" was about a "small group" seems to show they had plenty of press releases to the media about their single event, likely all prepared in advance. You can often spot this by the same pre-prepared sentences appearing in different media.
 

Gloster

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No-one should peacefully protest in case the Government or media lie about it?

No, but they should bear in mind that the government and media will, if it suits them, lie or distort the course of events. Therefore demonstrators should give them the least ammunition for their lies and distortions. It is a fine line and dilemma: if you are too careful and low key nobody notices, but if you are high profile (even if careful) you lay yourself open to being misrepresented.
 

Andyh82

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Network Rail shouldn’t be letting them protest in a station considering it’s private property. I’m not sure people turning up for their train want to be involved in a noisy protest that may be intimidating

The report on BBC News said that Waverley had to be closed due to numbers in the station. That’ll be a lot of delay repay that LNER will be sending Network Rail’s way.
 
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Network Rail shouldn’t be letting them protest in a station considering it’s private property. I’m not sure people turning up for their train want to be involved in a noisy protest that may be intimidating

The report on BBC News said that Waverley had to be closed due to numbers in the station. That’ll be a lot of delay repay that LNER will be sending Network Rail’s way.


I'm not sure network rail really had a choice, hundreds of people showing up at same moment, it would have been very difficult to prevent it starting without some prior intelligence and even then I would imagine fairly significant police resources would have been required to remove the protesters etc
 

yorkie

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Network Rail shouldn’t be letting them protest in a station considering it’s private property.
How would you suggest they achieve that? Physically restrain people? If so, how? What do you think the outcome would be?

I've said before it's not a good place to protest; unfortunately the Government are acting in a way that is highly provocative to many people. People don't make the best choices when angry. Those protesting want to maximise news coverage. Indeed the fact is generating so much debate here will be deemed a success.

Some of the ideas posted here demonstrate a lack of understanding, pragmatism and realism.
 
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hst43102

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I'll repeat my question. Would you also be able to clarify why Israel is a "rogue state" and how its actions are any worse than those of any other country going to war?

I'm genuinely interested to know whether or not you think that the state of Israel should exist, if it's a "rogue state". It's not distraction tactics at all, I'd just like to know your opinions so I have more context to understand what you are saying.

If my logic is nonsensical, why can't you suggest a more sensible and feasible approach to this conflict instead of dodging my questions? I'm more than happy to have my mind changed on this topic if you can properly suggest why I should have a differing view.
@yorkie would you be able to address my previous questions as per post #636 when possible? Thanks.

It is not the number of people who missed trains or were otherwise inconvenienced that is really the problem, although these add to the impression, it is the way that it will be depicted by politicians and parts of the media as some giant riot, or a giant riot only prevented by our magnificent police force, who need ‘more powers’. That most demonstrators are peaceful and unthreatening, and it is only a small and extreme fringe who descend to antisemitism, is almost completely overlooked. It is not what happened, but what people think happened or could have happened. With a media which has (largely) not only lost its impartiality over the subject (and wants a story) and a government of which some senior members are exploiting the protests for their own political and personal ends, the general publiccis going to get a view that is far from balanced and their opinions will follow.
In that case should nobody have opinions about everything, in case the media/social media make it look as if one was saying something else?
 

yorkie

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I'm not sure network rail really had a choice, hundreds of people showing up at same moment, it would have been very difficult to prevent it starting without some prior intelligence and even then I would imagine fairly significant police resources would have been required to remove the protesters etc
Exactly; criticism of Network Rail is unjustified and any claims they could somehow prevent it are completely inviable.

@yorkie would you be able to address my previous questions as per post #636 when possible? Thanks.
I had ignored this thread for a few days but posts relating to the station events led me to respond to those. I will address the earlier posts in due course.
 

thenorthern

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Network Rail shouldn’t be letting them protest in a station considering it’s private property. I’m not sure people turning up for their train want to be involved in a noisy protest that may be intimidating

The report on BBC News said that Waverley had to be closed due to numbers in the station. That’ll be a lot of delay repay that LNER will be sending Network Rail’s way.

I don't think Network Rail allow them to and I think it's against railway bylaws. I can see Network Rail applying for injunctions soon though if it carries on.
 

MCR247

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Try to protest with a couple of placards at a Coronation and you'll be hauled off to the Tower, or its modern-day equivalent, by the police. Amazing double standards.

P.S. I'm in no way suggesting that police tactics were correct at the Coronation, just pointing out the contrast.

I’m not actually sure what the equivalence is here if I’m honest

But protests that just stop a few people from going shopping or visiting their aunties probably will have zero effect too.

I disagree. These protests (and those around the world) are making it clear that a significant amount of people aren’t willing to stand by and watch what is happening like lots of their governments are.
 
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800001

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No; the purpose is to gain media attention.

I can understand why they are doing what they are doing, and they have the right to protest what is a very worthy cause, but I don't think railway stations are the best choice.

You are either not being serious or are a bit naïve.

Presumably memos have been sent to train crew / revenue officers to accept Advance tickets on alternative services.
Certainly at the ToC I work for they sent a message to all staff advising to allow customers to board next available service
 

thenorthern

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If the planned Pro-Palestine demonstration happens on Remembrance Day next weekend and there is any trouble near the cenotaph I reckon there could be major repercussions for the Free Palestine movement. Remembrance Day, the poppy and the Royal British Legion is probably the most sensitive topic in this country and any criticism of the poppy appeal immediately makes people very very unpopular.

In simple terms it's probably not the best idea to have a Free Palestine march on the 11th of November.
 

WAB

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If the planned Pro-Palestine demonstration happens on Remembrance Day next weekend and there is any trouble near the cenotaph I reckon there could be major repercussions for the Free Palestine movement. Remembrance Day, the poppy and the Royal British Legion is probably the most sensitive topic in this country and any criticism of the poppy appeal immediately makes people very very unpopular.

In simple terms it's probably not the best idea to have a Free Palestine march on the 11th of November.
I think you overestimate the reverence with which Remembrance Day is held by many in this country. There is enough to justify no protests in the vicinity of the Cenotaph, but not enough to justify no protests anywhere in a large city. It's perfectly acceptable for a protest to happen on the 11th imo.
 

hst43102

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If the planned Pro-Palestine demonstration happens on Remembrance Day next weekend and there is any trouble near the cenotaph I reckon there could be major repercussions for the Free Palestine movement. Remembrance Day, the poppy and the Royal British Legion is probably the most sensitive topic in this country and any criticism of the poppy appeal immediately makes people very very unpopular.

In simple terms it's probably not the best idea to have a Free Palestine march on the 11th of November.
The protests are scheduled for 1pm and nowhere near the cenotaph - I would say that there is a very small chance of disruption of remembrance day ceremonies.
 

thenorthern

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I think you overestimate the reverence with which Remembrance Day is held by many in this country. There is enough to justify no protests in the vicinity of the Cenotaph, but not enough to justify no protests anywhere in a large city. It's perfectly acceptable for a protest to happen on the 11th imo.

It's up to them if they want to organise protests, I don't think it's a good PR move though.

The protests are scheduled for 1pm and nowhere near the cenotaph - I would say that there is a very small chance of disruption of remembrance day ceremonies.

I wouldn't be so sure, we are talking about the official marches planned. There are plenty of "rebel" members of the marches (as there are with any protest). For example last night there were fireworks being set off in Trafalgar Square by "rebel" members of the protests which was not the intention of the organisers but nevertheless some attendees decided to do anyway.
 

nw1

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I wouldn't be so sure, we are talking about the official marches planned. There are plenty of "rebel" members of the marches (as there are with any protest). For example last night there were fireworks being set off in Trafalgar Square by "rebel" members of the protests which was not the intention of the organisers but nevertheless some attendees decided to do anyway.

Stopping the official marches from happening will not, of course, stop any "rebel" activity occurring. So stopping the marches (which occur at another location and at another time) is a pointless exercise.
 

Busaholic

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Well, very often those arrested just say they were "protesting", as this man was. They omit they were blocking everyone, ignoring police commands to stop blocking everyone, ignoring being told they would be arrested if they didn't stop this, and all such. There's protests, and there's going along hoping to be arrested.

The fact that "all the reports" was about a "small group" seems to show they had plenty of press releases to the media about their single event, likely all prepared in advance. You can often spot this by the same pre-prepared sentences appearing in different media.
The Republic spokesman had negotiated with the Met Police in advance that a small group of them would be holding placards in Trafalgar Square on the day, mingling with the crowd and disturbing nobody else, On the day, a sizeable contingent of police was waiting for them and arrested them on suspicion of carrying implements liable to be used for chaining themselves to objects, treating them like Just Stop Oil protestors. They were doing no such thing and the Met Commissioner later expressed 'regret' about the matter - needless to say, they were released without charge.

'All the reports' were not the work of the group. merely that so much of the world's media was around and filmed it all. There were no 'press releases' because there hadn't been any trouble anticipated by the peaceful and peaceable participants, so your generalised comments aren't applicable in this case. I do however reiterate the contrast between police behaviour then and yesterday in the same area.

I’m not actually sure what the equivalence is here if I’m honest
Ah, 'equivalence', a much over-used term on this forum. I was pointing out a contrast which has no connection with the meaning of equivalence.
 
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thenorthern

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Stopping the official marches from happening will not, of course, stop any "rebel" activity occurring. So stopping the marches (which occur at another location and at another time) is a pointless exercise.

We will wait and see, given how much controversy it's already caused there will naturally be more media coverage there than normal. As I say I think it will end up as a PR disaster for the Free Palestine movement.
 

jon0844

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I wouldn't be so sure, we are talking about the official marches planned. There are plenty of "rebel" members of the marches (as there are with any protest). For example last night there were fireworks being set off in Trafalgar Square by "rebel" members of the protests which was not the intention of the organisers but nevertheless some attendees decided to do anyway.

There were kids setting off fireworks in town, in broad daylight, yesterday and possibly today too. Fireworks are currently easily available so anyone could buy some and let them off indiscriminately. We know from multiple protests in the past that many people will 'tag along' to misbehave and use the cover of large crowds to get away with things. It's why you often see small groups start to break windows and loot, which on occasion can get out of control. It's unlikely that these people were there to genuinely protest and just got sidetracked.

It happens so often, but I guess that the media will report with whatever slant it wants to either blame all the protesters (guilty by association) or to strongly dismiss the connection and say the protesters they support weren't involved. I think right now that if a protester supporting Gaza so much as sneezed on someone else, it will be shown on viral videos in a heartbeat.

I would have to agree that the risk of bad PR, especially though highly selective videos being posted, is perhaps a reason to be careful about scheduling a protest too close and around the same time. I do think the likes of Darren Grimes and the other GB News presenters who are already keeping an almost 24/7 watch on the Cenotaph and elsewhere will be posting anything they can, and getting people riled up. By the time the fact checkers come along, a lot of damage will have been done.
 
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thenorthern

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I would have to agree that the risk of bad PR, especially though highly selective videos being posted, is perhaps a reason to be careful about scheduling a protest too close and around the same time. I do think the likes of Darren Grimes and the other GB News presenters who are already keeping an almost 24/7 watch on the Cenotaph and elsewhere will be posting anything they can, and getting people riled up. By the time the fact checkers come along, a lot of damage will have been done.

I wouldn't just say it's GB News, we have always had on average a right wing press in this country. Think about it the best selling newspapers in the United Kingdom are largely center right/right wing publications.
 

MCR247

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Ah, 'equivalence', a much over-used term on this forum. I was pointing out a contrast which has no connection with the meaning of equivalence.

You were pointing out a contrast between two situations as a double standard. Does that not rely on the situations being at least similar, if not equivalent?
 

davews

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I was on a few of the lockdown marches a couple of years ago. These were virtually ignored by the media even when right outside BBC headquarters. The places where the marches were going to be and starting points were only publicised shortly before hand. They were largely peaceful affairs and well tolerated by the public who largely supported our aims.

These marches are different, with a huge media coverage and details widely announced in advance. Certainly an opportunity for undesirable elements to disrupt them. The media portray it as anti-semitic pro Palestine whereas in reality it is largely for a cease fire.

But like the lockdown ones these are also going against the current government narrative so it is in the media's interest to decry them.

I will not be joining them myself but certainly want a cease fire.
 

GS250

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The question you have to ask. Why was there not a march for a ceasefire within a few days of Hammas invading Israel?

Surely that was the time for those wanting a peaceful resolution to make a stand?
 

brad465

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The question you have to ask. Why was there not a march for a ceasefire within a few days of Hammas invading Israel?

Surely that was the time for those wanting a peaceful resolution to make a stand?
The invasion started on a Saturday, which along with Sunday is when most protesting occurs. By the time the next weekend came along Israel had already driven Hamas back and was readying its own operations in Gaza. Also there may have been small anti-Hamas marches that are supportive of the citizens of both sides, but they don't fit the media narrative of grouping everybody into the tribal camps that gives it most clicks.
 

DustyBin

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The question you have to ask. Why was there not a march for a ceasefire within a few days of Hammas invading Israel?

Surely that was the time for those wanting a peaceful resolution to make a stand?

There were certainly calls for a ceasefire very early on, some of which I'm sure were made in good faith and some less so.... As for the lack of actual marches during the first week of the conflict, I agree with @brad465.

The problem with calling for a ceasefire is that both sides need to honour it, and it's clear that Hamas won't. Many people are seemingly unaware that Hamas is firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis, and will continue to do so regardless. It's a no-win situation for Israel, although I do think they need to do more to mitigate the humanitarian crisis.
 

hst43102

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The problem with calling for a ceasefire is that both sides need to honour it, and it's clear that Hamas won't. Many people are seemingly unaware that Hamas is firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis, and will continue to do so regardless. It's a no-win situation for Israel, although I do think they need to do more to mitigate the humanitarian crisis.
Totally agreed, I think the only feasible short-term solution at the moment would be an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in exchange for all remaining hostages. I hope that this is negotiated as soon as possible as it's clear that the current situation cannot carry on without sufficient time and safety to evacuate civilians.
 

brad465

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According to YouGov 56% of Britons have sympathy for both sides of this conflict, out of 6 options in the poll conducted:

Most Britons have sympathy for both sides in Israel-Palestine conflict

Sympathy for both sides: 56%
Only sympathise with Israelis: 8%
Only sympathise with Palestinians: 9%
No sympathy for either: 3%
Don’t know: 21%

This goes against both the Government stance and media narrative seemingly only favouring Israel, and shows why there is visible discontent over the whole issue as a result. We have more in common with the citizens of any other country than each group of citizens has with their respective government.
 

Cdd89

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The counterargument would be that 8% and 9% are each worryingly large raw numbers of people; those groups clearly hold strong, entrenched and extreme views in having no sympathy for the other country's citizens, depsite the obvious suffering of innocent citizens of both, and therefore such extremists will be disproportionately represented in protests, marches or online discussion.

Lockdown protests were mentioned upthread and they too became dominated by extreme elements; while moderate people may have been on them, they merely served to give additional credence to those with extreme views. For this reason, I honestly question how useful protests are in making a point and wouldn't join one (even a topic I strongly agree with), as opposed to calm reasoned discussion (such as that in this thread).
 

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