2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)

[TRAX]

It will make it look a bit less cheap once completed.

 

[DanNCL]

strange to see clearly under the hood areas (the front part that will have the cab or a gangway in front of it) painted

Seems to be standard practice at Siemens, at least for their UK products. The 185s, 350s, 380s, 444s, 450s and 707s are all like that too.

 

[Snow1964]

Couple of dates have been published, see page 31-32 of TfL Board 2023-24 budget

October 2023 First new Piccadilly train to manufacturers test track

December 2023 First stationary commissioning test complete on a new Piccadilly Line train

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s19826/TfL%20Budget%202023-24.pdf

 

[matt_world2004]

And a serious engineering point, I'm surprised they state that it has a "track friendly, multi articulated design". Because I'm sure a proposal in the past for articulated stock on the main line was squelched by Network Rail noting that the axle load is greater if you have effectively one axle at each end of a coach, instead of two, and as they had found track costs were proportional to axle load, they were going to charge much more for them.

Doesn't articulated rolling stock run on network rail track with stock to Wimbledon Elizabeth line and london Overground

 

[Snow1964]

Doesn't articulated rolling stock run on network rail track with stock to Wimbledon Elizabeth line and london Overground

They are not articulated, there is a bogie at end of each coach, the very wide walkthrough gangway doesn't make them articulated.

The new trains are effectively 5 single cars (with 2 bogies each) and 4 shorter bridging sections without wheels hung from adjacent vehicle ends.

 

[hacman]

Doesn't articulated rolling stock run on network rail track with stock to Wimbledon Elizabeth line and london Overground

Although the above mentioned examples are not articulated, the new 777s that Merseyrail have, the new Tyne and Wear 555s, plus the existing Metro fleet are all articulated.

Operation of articulated stock on Network Rail has happened for many years now.

 

[pethadine82]

How much are these trains costing, and how has it been funded? Do TfL sell bonds to cover for this, with rising rates, as yields go up bond prices fall, which benefits bond sellers, but not bond buyers.

 

[DanNCL]

Doesn't articulated rolling stock run on network rail track with stock to Wimbledon Elizabeth line and london Overground

Although the above mentioned examples are not articulated, the new 777s that Merseyrail have, the new Tyne and Wear 555s, plus the existing Metro fleet are all articulated.

Operation of articulated stock on Network Rail has happened for many years now.

Articulated stock has ran in the UK for at least eight decades - the earliest example I know of are the 1937 built LNER Tyneside Electrics. However the Siemens LU stock will be the first UK trains (as opposed to trams) to be articulated with ‘floating’ sections. Floating sections have only been used previously in the UK on trams, specifically on the CAF trams in the West Midlands, all trams in Nottingham and Edinburgh, the Flexities in Blackpool and the Variobahns in Croydon.

 

[100andthirty]

When placed in

How much are these trains costing, and how has it been funded? Do TfL sell bonds to cover for this, with rising rates, as yields go up bond prices fall, which benefits bond sellers, but not bond buyers.

When placed in 2018, tghe contract for 94 trains was worth £1.5Bn. TfL funds the trains itself and if necessary has a facility to borrow. Part of the funding was delivered by sale and leaseback of the Crossrail trains.

 

[pethadine82]

When placed in

When placed in 2018, tghe contract for 94 trains was worth £1.5Bn. TfL funds the trains itself and if necessary has a facility to borrow. Part of the funding was delivered by sale and leaseback of the Crossrail trains.

That's fascinating. Does TfL produce a set of public accounts?

 

[Starmill]

That's fascinating. Does TfL produce a set of public accounts?

Yes there's some explanation here:

Budget and Business Plan

These plans describe how we will implement and fund the projects that underpin the Mayor's Transport Strategy

tfl.gov.uk

Scroll to the bottom and you can download the full budget and business plan documents for details.

 

[rebmcr]

Given the state of TfL's finances, I would not be surprised if the 24TS ended up being sale-and-leaseback'ed too; once the risk of building and commissioning them has lapsed, it becomes a very smart deal for both sides.

 

[Thirteen]

Given the state of TfL's finances, I would not be surprised if the 24TS ended up being sale-and-leaseback'ed too; once the risk of building and commissioning them has lapsed, it becomes a very smart deal for both sides.

I think sell and buyback might be a way to get funding to replace the Bakerloo Line stock, that cannot last for much longer.

 

[Starmill]

I think sell and buyback might be a way to get funding to replace the Bakerloo Line stock, that cannot last for much longer.

It would appear to be behind not only the Piccadilly line stock but also a rather large fleet of (now committed) electric buses and the CR4000 replacements in the queue though. It may also be behind the Central and W&C lines. More likely that the Bakerloo line will compensate by losing some diagrams over the next few years, I fear.

 

[Jonah Kemp]

I think sell and buyback might be a way to get funding to replace the Bakerloo Line stock, that cannot last for much longer.

The 1972 stock will last a while longer yet... It will be replaced in the late 30s... Btw I much prefer the 72s to modern stock

 

[Mikey C]

The 72s are overdue replacement, it would be ridiculous if the 92s are replaced first, especially with the major work they are currently getting.

 

[Wolfie]

The 1972 stock will last a while longer yet... It will be replaced in the late 30s... Btw I much prefer the 72s to modern stock

The Bakerloo line is a working public transport link not a living museum. The 72 stock are already overdue to become razor blades.

The 72s are overdue replacement, it would be ridiculous if the 92s are replaced first, especially with the major work they are currently getting.

Absolutely.

 

[Thirteen]

The 1972 stock won't last until the late 2030s and indeed TfL probably are hoping once the NTfL stock is up and running in 2025 that they can place more orders.

 

[Snow1964]

The 1972 stock won't last until the late 2030s and indeed TfL probably are hoping once the NTfL stock is up and running in 2025 that they can place more orders.

There is still the option of a political fudge, where the extra trains ordered for uplift from 24tph to 27tph get diverted to Bakerloo, so any new Bakerloo order can be smaller. The design is basically identical apart from some interior colours and which signalling modules are fitted.

There remains options in the order, including more trains to increase Piccadilly from 27tph to 30tph. This is not cheap as it also requires Resignalling most of the line. It would of course be possible to build a Bakerloo batch before extra Piccadilly trains.

As new trains have a higher capacity anyway (vs 1973 stock) it is not clear if the growth build is still needed for Piccadilly, with post pandemic usage levels and some of the western stations losing traffic to Elizabeth line.

If anyone is wondering about the Central line variant, they are not designed yet, as it is envisaged they will be 11car with different body lengths.

 

[Via Bank]

Given the state of TfL's finances, I would not be surprised if the 24TS ended up being sale-and-leaseback'ed too; once the risk of building and commissioning them has lapsed, it becomes a very smart deal for both sides.

I believe this was in their plan prior to the new funding arrangement (one of the worst “managed decline” scenarios) but is no longer necessary. Whether it would’ve even been worth it long term is questionable. The 345s are ultimately just conventional mainline trains and could be modified to run anywhere in the country; meanwhile it’s hard to imagine any leasing company would be able to lease the 2024 stock anywhere else, and you can’t buy or modify off-the-shelf mainline trains to run on the tube. The leasing company would be able to name their price and TfL would have no choice but to cough up.

 

[rebmcr]

you can’t buy or modify off-the-shelf mainline trains to run on the tube. The leasing company would be able to name their price and TfL would have no choice but to cough up.

The exact same is true of the Elizabeth Line, its platform screen doors create a natural monopoly for the Class 345 owner. Yet the arrangement is very obviously not problematic.

 

[Meerkat]

The exact same is true of the Elizabeth Line, its platform screen doors create a natural monopoly for the Class 345 owner. Yet the arrangement is very obviously not problematic.

Its a different kind of lease isn't it? In effect more like a mortgage, though as you already own the property you pocket the cash.
Plenty of financial organisations want to turn big wedges of cash into a secure income stream

 

[stuu]

I believe this was in their plan prior to the new funding arrangement (one of the worst “managed decline” scenarios) but is no longer necessary. Whether it would’ve even been worth it long term is questionable. The 345s are ultimately just conventional mainline trains and could be modified to run anywhere in the country; meanwhile it’s hard to imagine any leasing company would be able to lease the 2024 stock anywhere else, and you can’t buy or modify off-the-shelf mainline trains to run on the tube. The leasing company would be able to name their price and TfL would have no choice but to cough up.

On the other hand there is no alternative customer either, whilst TfL could in theory order alternative stock and the leasing company would be left with a worthless asset

 

[Jonah Kemp]

The Bakerloo line is a working public transport link not a living museum. The 72 stock are already overdue to become razor blades.


Absolutely.

Well I hope some 72s get preserved and they all don't get scrapped... Anyway they still have some years left

 

[Wolfie]

Well I hope some 72s get preserved and they all don't get scrapped... Anyway they still have some years left

That l do agree with you on.

 

[bramling]

It would appear to be behind not only the Piccadilly line stock but also a rather large fleet of (now committed) electric buses and the CR4000 replacements in the queue though. It may also be behind the Central and W&C lines. More likely that the Bakerloo line will compensate by losing some diagrams over the next few years, I fear.

You can also add Piccadilly resignalling to that list, though I’d be surprised if that even starts this decade.

 

[Thirteen]

On the other hand there is no alternative customer either, whilst TfL could in theory order alternative stock and the leasing company would be left with a worthless asset

TfL wants a standardised stock for the Deep Level Tube so ordering different stock is unlikely, I would imagine whenever the Northern and Jubilee stocks are replaced it'll be a variant of the NTfL.

 

[Wolfie]

TfL wants a standardised stock for the Deep Level Tube so ordering different stock is unlikely, I would imagine whenever the Northern and Jubilee stocks are replaced it'll be a variant of the NTfL.

Given that the 95 and 96 stock likely will be in service for at least another 10-15 years l would be surprised if that was so given the rate of technological change.

 

[stuu]

TfL wants a standardised stock for the Deep Level Tube so ordering different stock is unlikely, I would imagine whenever the Northern and Jubilee stocks are replaced it'll be a variant of the NTfL.

If you read the statement I was replying to, it might explain my point more clearly

 

[pethadine82]

Will the newer trains run at 65mph in the open sections?