20mph in all built up areas in Wales - thoughts?

[Bletchleyite]

Some people won’t be happy until they have grannies cycling the rain to the Dr’s surgery

In the South East of England, it doesn't rain many days a year. I forget how many it is, but it's surprisingly few. Few enough that if your transport need is almost all local then you're going to be financially quids in if you cycle on every day it doesn't rain and take a taxi on any day it does, and not own a car.

And if old Granny Smith cycled her short journeys on safe, dedicated infrastructure (or 20mph roads at a push), she'd probably be healthier and live longer too. And have more independence (as my Grandad did) once their facilities weren't such that they could continue to drive.

It's all about these things being an option. MK is, as I said, near enough a 15 minute city, ish. If you're lazy you can drive to the local centre, nobody will stop you and parking is free, but at least walking and cycling are a viable, safe option. This is the "carrot". There is no stick.

 

[bramling]

Bit in bold - given the huge reduction in tail pipe emissions over the last 10+ years, driven entirely by technology and improvements to car design, such measures on "environmental" reasons aren't actually necessary and are really just a bit of virtue signalling, usually from the autocratic left in politics.

Or in the case of Drakeford, control of the population. He seems to get a kick out of that, as was also seen during Covid.

 

[VauxhallandI]

In the South East of England, it doesn't rain many days a year. I forget how many it is, but it's surprisingly few. Few enough that if your transport need is almost all local then you're going to be financially quids in if you cycle on every day it doesn't rain and take a taxi on any day it does, and not own a car.

And if old Granny Smith cycled her short journeys on safe, dedicated infrastructure (or 20mph roads at a push), she'd probably be healthier and live longer too. And have more independence (as my Grandad did) once their facilities weren't such that they could continue to drive.

It's all about these things being an option. MK is, as I said, near enough a 15 minute city, ish. If you're lazy you can drive to the local centre, nobody will stop you and parking is free, but at least walking and cycling are a viable, safe option. This is the "carrot". There is no stick.

I'm sorry that's utter twaddle. Not surprised to hear it though.

It's always a demand put to a line that suits the bleater.

I'm sat here watching the rain in the South East, you make it sound like the Atacama

 

[Krokodil]

Some people won’t be happy until they have grannies cycling the rain to the Dr’s surgery

Why would granny need to cycle to the Doctor if the surgery was only a 15 minute walk away?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would granny need to cycle to the Doctor if the surgery was only a 15 minute walk away?

It's only 7 minutes' walk to my surgery. I find the mind to utterly boggle as to why anyone would think that disadvantageous. I can pop over and back for my periodic tests before my coffee has even gone cold.

I could cycle but it's not even worth getting the bike out, let alone the car (for which I'd have to do a journey 4 times the length, no, not because of LTNs, just because that's how the roads and paths are laid out and always have been).

I'm sat here watching the rain in the South East, you make it sound like the Atacama

Yes, it's raining today. So today you'd take a taxi. Or even drive.

 

[Krokodil]

This will never sell cycling, so please don't. Not wishing to arrive at work in a puddle of sweat due to a 5 mile hilly ride (as might be a typical commute in MK, despite the Redways helping with the safety aspect) is not an unusual nor unreasonable thing.

There's nothing worse, nor more demotivating, for someone who is unfit, than sanctimonious "but I get up for a run at 4:30am every day" fit people. It does huge, huge amounts of damage to the cause.

I didn't say that I said it out loud, presumably I'm allowed to think freely?

"You only live around the bloody corner" might have been said once or twice though, when someone whinges about parking.

 

[bramling]

Why would granny need to cycle to the Doctor if the surgery was only a 15 minute walk away?

Worth pointing out that some elderly people can physically struggle to walk even that distance.

For balance, as does my perfectly healthy neighbour who will get his car out even to drive 200 metres to his parents’ house!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worth pointing out that some elderly people can physically struggle to walk even that distance.

Be careful, you're headed off towards the thoroughly accessible home of the RailUK Standard Minority!

Of course some people can't walk any distance at all. This isn't aimed at those people. A good many such people have mobility scooters instead of cars, anyway, as typically when one has degenerated to that extent through age poor reactions tend to preclude safe driving. And obviously there are wheelchair users, who if they can't wheel that far should drive an EV or take an electric taxi, and I'd be more than happy that someone unfortunate enough to be in that position would be provided the latter free of charge.

 

[A0wen]

Some people won’t be happy until they have grannies cycling the rain to the Dr’s surgery and everyone working within a 3 mile radius of their house.

Once a year you will be allowed to go on a coach holiday to your nearest wet seaside town

This modern day obsession of spouting desires regarding other peoples lives has to end.

You have one life, go and live it and do as much as you can and leave others alone. You don’t get a thicker mattress in heaven for being such a vomit inducing goody two shoes. After all given an audit of your lifestyle we will all find something to cancel you for.

Another of those occasions where I really wish this forum had a "like" button.....

 

[VauxhallandI]

Worth pointing out that some elderly people can physically struggle to walk even that distance.

For balance, as does my perfectly healthy neighbour who will get his car out even to drive 200 metres to his parents’ house!

Exactly, my parents have lost a lot of their physical abilities over the last few years (thanks lockdown lovers) so the walk is not an option.

i think some people live in cloud cuckoo land. So busy trying to help the world but just end up screwing people over.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm sorry that's utter twaddle. Not surprised to hear it though.

It's always a demand put to a line that suits the bleater.

I'm sat here watching the rain in the South East, you make it sound like the Atacama

London gets 108 days of rain per year. Amsterdam gets 122. Even Manchester, a city that is pretty damned rainy gets 136, which isn't really that much more than Amsterdam.

"1 day of rain" doesn't mean 24hrs of it, mind. It could mean a single passing shower, that might well have happened at night or whole you were in work.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Be careful, you're headed off towards the thoroughly accessible home of the RailUK Standard Minority!

Of course some people can't walk any distance at all. This isn't aimed at those people. A good many such people have mobility scooters instead of cars, anyway, as typically when one has degenerated to that extent through age poor reactions tend to preclude safe driving. And obviously there are wheelchair users, who if they can't wheel that far should drive an EV or take an electric taxi, and I'd be more than happy that someone unfortunate enough to be in that position would be provided the latter free of charge.

Electric taxi! Honestly how you dream this up I will never know.

There are about two physical taxi vehicles in their town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, my parents have lost a lot of their physical abilities over the last few years (thanks lockdown lovers) so the walk is not an option.

Wouldn't it be easier for them, as people who can only drive, if the roads were a bit quieter and the area less polluted because those who didn't need to drive didn't?

Won't 20mph be better for them with their no doubt lengthened reaction times you get in old age?

i think some people live in cloud cuckoo land. So busy trying to help the world but just end up screwing people over.

Do you consider the entire population of the Netherlands to be in cloud cuckoo land, with their egalitarian land of road safety and ease of cycling and public transport travel?

And yes, you can still drive if you really want.

 

[VauxhallandI]

London gets 108 days of rain per year. Amsterdam gets 122. Even Manchester, a city that is pretty damned rainy gets 136, which isn't really that much more than Amsterdam.

"1 day of rain" doesn't mean 24hrs of it, mind. It could mean a single passing shower, that might well have happened at night or whole you were in work.

Oh so you can move your dr appointment automatically as it’s connected to the bbc weather app?

Oh no it’s not is it, honestly another cloud cuckoo land liver

 

[Krokodil]

Worth pointing out that some elderly people can physically struggle to walk even that distance.

Many of those won't be able to drive a car either. That's what mobility aids are for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electric taxi! Honestly how you dream this up I will never know.

Give it 10-20 years and all taxis will be electric, probably starting with London who are likely to mandate it soon enough.

Many of those won't be able to drive a car either. That's what mobility aids are for.

Exactly. A mobility scooter would allow them to wheel to the surgery safely as well as to/around the shops. Some have a "hood" in case it's raining.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Wouldn't it be easier for them, as people who can only drive, if the roads were a bit quieter and the area less polluted because those who didn't need to drive didn't?

Won't 20mph be better for them with their no doubt lengthened reaction times you get in old age?



Do you consider the entire population of the Netherlands to be in cloud cuckoo land, with their egalitarian land of road safety and ease of cycling and public transport travel?

And yes, you can still drive if you really want.

No it wouldn’t help them one iota, no matter how many daft angles you dream up.

There is no traffic problem in the town and people are suffocating in the streets.

Whats your next piece of wisdom? Is there a subject you aren’t an expert in by any chance?

Give it 10-20 years and all taxis will be electric, probably starting with London who are likely to mandate it soon enough.



Exactly. A mobility scooter would allow them to wheel to the surgery safely as well as to/around the shops. Some have a "hood" in case it's raining.

They will be dead by then, keep trying this is getting almost funny

 

[Krokodil]

Oh so you can move your dr appointment automatically as it’s connected to the bbc weather app?

Oh no it’s not is it, honestly another cloud cuckoo land liver

No, I just put a coat on.

Have you ever met Granny Smith? She's a resourceful woman:

 

[VauxhallandI]

Many of those won't be able to drive a car either. That's what mobility aids are for.

Many but a few million will. Not a real world solution.

No, I just put a coat on.

Have you ever met Granny Smith? She's a resourceful woman:

But we aren’t talking about you are we?

 

[Krokodil]

There is no traffic problem in the town

You should see the parking wars around here.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You should see the parking wars around here.

Irrelevant

 

[Krokodil]

But we aren’t talking about you are we?

I highly doubt that I'm the only person in this country to own a coat.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I highly doubt that I'm the only person in this country to own a coat.

Right so you do want frail 80 year olds struggling in the street, no actually you ant it to be in adverse weather conditions too.

One day you might realise what fits your little world isn’t necessarily good for everyone and you aren’t the deliverer of utopia

 

[lachlan]

If people really cared about disabled and elderly people, they would ensure they take public transport or cycle when they can in order to a) ensure bus services are viable and supported for those who need them and can’t drive
b) reduce congestion on the roads to ensure people who can’t walk/cycle/use public transport are able to get about

 

[Krokodil]

Right so you do want frail 80 year olds struggling in the street, no actually you ant it to be in adverse weather conditions too.

Why would they be struggling in the street? Are you saying that streets are dangerous places to be, what with all of the cars speeding around?

One day you might realise what fits your little world isn’t necessarily good for everyone and you aren’t the deliverer of utopia

One day you might realise that autopia is a grey, miserable land. You might see that being able to move about freely, without having to press a 'beg button' to cross the road is very liberating.

If people really cared about disabled and elderly people, they would ensure they take public transport or cycle when they can in order to a) ensure bus services are viable and supported for those who need them and can’t drive
b) reduce congestion on the roads to ensure people who can’t walk/cycle/use public transport are able to get about

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But instead posters just use vulnerable people to further their own ends. It's a bit like the ULEZ debate, where virtually every opponent says "well it doesn't actually affect me because my 10 year old car is compliant, but I'm very worried about [hypothetical standard minority, who is now working as a plumber] who I don't actually know but I'm sure that he exists somewhere..."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't object to the 20mph measure, but it has been implemented without much intelligence.
The rules were that all 30 became 20, unless the local council decided otherwise (who didn't publish their intentions).
I understand just 3% of the affected roads were retained at 30mph.
The WG minister involved, Lee Waters, does say he will support councils who want to reinstate some 30mph sections.

I've no problem with residential areas and the many tight locations in Wales, but there are many locations where 20mph is unnecessary.
Local councils already implemented a programme of speed reductions, with 40 often going to 30, and now the 30 is 20.
There are some stretches where in a short distance the speed limits went 30/40/30, and these are now 20/40/20, with one section of 40 being for all of 400 yards.
There are now 50/40/20 progressions which just seems unduly steep.

Some odd blips were noticeable this week - I'm actually surprised they managed to change all the signage overnight!
I know two school areas where the official signs are correct at 20 but the road markings haven't been updated and still say 30.
Ruthin had a 20mph zone, marked by electronic signs, past the main school within the overall town 30 zone.
The town signs are now 20, making the school signs irrelevant, but they still say 20 on entry and 30 on exit!
The A494 also has a stretch of about a mile where half is retained at 30 while the rest is down to 20.

My car info system displays the speed limit and whether you are over or under it.
I was surprised to find it already had some of the new limits downloaded, but there were also other areas where it was wrong or just blank.

It is also odd that the UK doesn't use speeds ending in "5" (unlike on the railway!).
25/35/45 speeds would be very useful in the current setup.
They manage such 5mph speed gradations in the USA.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't object to the 20mph measure, but it has been implemented without much intelligence.
The rules were that all 30 became 20, unless the local council decided otherwise (who didn't publish their intentions).
I understand just 3% of the affected roads were retained at 30mph.
The WG minister involved, Lee Waters, does say he will support councils who want to reinstate some 30mph sections.

This isn't necessarily a bad plan, along the lines of "desire paths" i.e. don't bother paving a new estate but rather wait to see where people wear the grass out and then pave those paths.

Blanket 20, then allow people to petition to allow 30 to be restored in some locations, and assess those petitions based on fixed criteria.

The same thing might work for pavement parking - ban it everywhere, and allow people to petition for bays to be marked or pavements to be modified when it becomes clear in some cases it will cause hardship (this is more objective than just listening to whining).

My car info system displays the speed limit and whether you are over or under it.
I was surprised to find it already had some of the new limits downloaded, but there were also other areas where it was wrong or just blank.

A lot of these systems just read the signs.

It is also odd that the UK doesn't use speeds ending in "5" (unlike on the railway!).
25/35/45 speeds would be very useful in the current setup.

I don't agree. It's more confusing (2 numbers to read rather than 1) and the graduation is a bit small. We could avoid the confusion by switching to km/h which gives about a 6mph graduation though.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't object to the 20mph measure, but it has been implemented without much intelligence.
The rules were that all 30 became 20, unless the local council decided otherwise (who didn't publish their intentions).
I understand just 3% of the affected roads were retained at 30mph.
The WG minister involved, Lee Waters, does say he will support councils who want to reinstate some 30mph sections.

This is the fault of the individual local authority, despite the whinging from many quarters about the WG. Some councils (I believe that Swansea is in this category) have engaged with the process properly. Others have sulked, and gone for malicious compliance.

 

[A0wen]

If people really cared about disabled and elderly people, they would ensure they take public transport or cycle when they can in order to a) ensure bus services are viable and supported for those who need them and can’t drive
b) reduce congestion on the roads to ensure people who can’t walk/cycle/use public transport are able to get about

What utter rot - so people should have to inconvenience themselves to virtue signal for others.

How about the fact the economically active already massively subsidise pensioners and the disabled ?

This is the fault of the individual local authority, despite the whinging from many quarters about the WG. Some councils (I believe that Swansea is in this category) have engaged with the process properly. Others have sulked, and gone for malicious compliance.

Which will only work if people in Wales show enough intelligence not to vote Labour at the next Welsh Assembly elections, but for some strange reason they seem to prefer self-flagellation.

 

[DC1989]

Fully agree with it - all this does is speed up the process that's been happening over the last 25+ years where individual roads are gradually one by one put at 20mph by councils. I imagine England will follow by 2030.

As someone that moved from a 20mph London borough to one that has barely any, 30 does seem very very high in places where people and traffic mix regularly.