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20mph in all built up areas in Wales - thoughts?

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A couple of posts below have been copied from the thread about future class 175 uses.

Please keep this thread constructive and polite as we had to lock it previously.
 
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Dai Corner

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They were replaced thanks to the Welsh Government weren't they? They were the ones who left the franchise to Kelios Amey who included replacing them all with 197's.
Yes. They're the anti-road Government I was referring to.
 

The Ham

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Yes. They're the anti-road Government I was referring to.

In what way are they anti road?

I suspect what you mean is that they aren't of the mindset "car is king", as you only need to look to the US where their cities are little more than roads and car parks with fairly few buildings to see where that ends up.

Cars are a very inefficient way of getting about and whist they have many advantages there are quite a few problems which come with them.

As such governments and policy makers should be doing what they can to ensure that roads are safe. The best way to achieve that is to ensure that they are safe to use for the most vulnerable of road users (i.e. pedestrians).

The public highway is defined as "a way over which all members of the public have a right to pass and repass", that word ALL is important, as it means that highest authorities and all levels of government who impact on policy can not shirt from their duty to allow any member of public the ability to use the public highway.

For the avoidance of doubt, the word highway in the UK is not the same meaning as the US (which effectively relates to a motorway standard road), as it doesn't even solely relate to where cars can use, nor did it mean that it is even paved. Technically any public right of way could be defined legally as a highway (footways, bridleways, byways, roads, cycle paths, and any other route people have the legal right to use), however the more narrow use of highway maintenance at public expense (publicity adopted roads) are generally what people mean. However, even then roads aren't everything.

For example if you were to park on a grass verge behind the footway (footpaths are route away from roads and pavement design is the design of a paved surface, so whilst common usage would imply a pavement or footpath= footway they are all different things) which is adopted highway and the carriageway had double yellow lines on it you can still get a parking ticket for doing so as the parking restrictions cover the adopted highway, not just the road.

Another thing which is fairly unknown, your title deads can show that you own to the centre of the adopted highway (or all of it if you are the land owner on both sides of it), however that doesn't mean that it's your road. As adopted highway can "overlay" land ownership and where it does it supersedes the rights of ownership. Therefore, if a road is adopted it's entirely possible for you to own it but not be able to do anything with it.

Anyway, ultimately roads should never be there solely for cars, as there goes the ruin of society. The overuse of cars will lead to low density development, meaning that people can not walk to get to where they need to, which means far more land space is required, which means higher taxes to fund the repair of the roads. As not only is there far more paved surface to maintain, but also there will be more vehicles using them causing far more now damage.

There's a view that the reason why the US is having so many issues with their infrastructure maintenance is that suburban areas actually cost too much to maintain for the amount of taxes they generate (it's less of an issue in the UK where houses and gardens are much smaller, so the length of road, sewer and services connections for each extra house is much shorter).

In theory (as long as roads are kept free from excess water and the impact of plants) a road being walked or cycled on could in theory last as close to forever as makes no difference.

Not only would an over use of cars last to higher taxes, it would result in higher costs for owners, as rather than being able to park and visit several shops, you would likely have to drive between shops.

If you're doing that, then public health deteriorates; which increases the tax requirements to keep people alive.

Not only does have significant tax and other financial implications as well as health problems, communities become simply a collection of buildings. As people rarely meet each other locally and so would be unable to form the relationships to allow them to work together for the betterment of where they live.

Ultimately, it's why it's the best thing for society if cats are kept in check (please note I'm not saying we shouldn't have any just not as many as possible or even as many as people would like as they do have some advantages, just that those advantages shouldn't be understood without acknowledging that they have issues).

You'll also note that I've not mentioned the environmental impact of cars, and that's not because they don't have one (even electric cars do, just a slightly smaller one and a slightly different one), but rather because that's easier for people to understand and doesn't really need covering.

Incase anyone isn't aware, my job; Highway Engineer. As such you may have thought that I'd want as many people to drive as possible. No my job is to make the roads I design safe for all users and ensure that we don't end up with significant traffic congestion. The best way to achieve both those goals - have as many people as possible walking, and if that's not viable, cycling and if that's not viable, using public transport and if that's not viable using shared vehicles (car clubs and taxis) and then and only then then considering using there own car.
 

greyman42

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Cars are a very inefficient way of getting about and whist they have many advantages there are quite a few problems which come with them.
I would say that cars are a very efficient way of getting people about, but i suppose it depends on what we mean by "getting people about".
 

Dai Corner

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In what way are they anti road?
I had in mind that the Welsh Government has stopped spending on all but one road improvement scheme and cut funding for buses at the same time as increasing their costs by reducing the default urban speed limit while increasing spending on rail and continuing subsidy for their airport.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would say that cars are a very efficient way of getting people about, but i suppose it depends on what we mean by "getting people about".

Use of road space and pollution. That said family cars with 4 people in them are quite efficient in both of those areas, it's cars with one person in them that we want to avoid.
 

The Ham

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Use of road space and pollution. That said family cars with 4 people in them are quite efficient in both of those areas, it's cars with one person in them that we want to avoid.

Cars with one person in is the vast majority of the cars in use at any one time.

The average number off people in a car is around 1.4. For every car with 4 people in there's an average of around 7.5 cars with 1 person in.

If we could get that down to an average of 7 cars with 1 person in for every car with 4 people in, then that small shift would mean we would be carrying the same number of people but with 2% fewer cars. Of course, the better solution would be that those single person cars are traveling by other modes.
 

dangie

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Going back to the original post.

I’ve recently returned from a week’s holiday in South Wales (Pembrokeshire). Getting there and back we didn’t use the motorways we went ‘cross country’ using A & B roads instead. Of course there were many 20mph sections through tows & villages but once used to it not really a problem.

More irritating was the many miles of 30/40mph temporary speed restrictions on the 60mph National Speed Limit A & B roads. On most of these there was no obvious reason for the speed restriction. It seemed they had a glut of spare signs so needed somewhere to put them.
 

slowroad

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Cars with one person in is the vast majority of the cars in use at any one time.

The average number off people in a car is around 1.4. For every car with 4 people in there's an average of around 7.5 cars with 1 person in.

If we could get that down to an average of 7 cars with 1 person in for every car with 4 people in, then that small shift would mean we would be carrying the same number of people but with 2% fewer cars. Of course, the better solution would be that those single person cars are traveling by other modes.
How is one person to decide what is the best choice for another person? There is no “of course” about it. What is needed is a system whereby transport users face the full costs of their choices. Then, if people choose to drive, that’s fine. In practice this would probably mean higher costs and less traffic in congested urban areas, especially at rush hours, and lower costs, more traffic (and more/better roads) in other areas and times.
 

Richard Scott

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Very late to the party on this so please excuse any repetition on earlier posts.
I live in Wales and these are my observations.
Ditherers now do 15mph causing huge tailbacks, it can take me up to 5 minutes to get out of my local side road in a morning and often have to risk it in a small gap to stand a chance of getting out. I see pedestrians do the same when crossing the road, some of these are school children going for their buses.
Some drivers get so fed up with ditherers they overtake increasing risk off an accident. This rarely happened with a 30mph limit but is a regular occurance now.
The 20mph limit on the main road through the village is ridiculous and painfully slow, many drivers admit they lose concentration so are more likely to have an accident.
Cyclists often take to the pavement as they are going faster than the cars increasing risk to pedestrians
Some drivers accelerate like they're starting a grand prix when speed limit changes to 40mph (often to greater than the speed limit) between two villages then slam the brakes on for the 20mph, this causes an increase in pollution particularly brake dust particulates and, yes, electric vehicles release these too!
You can argue about this as much as you like and that people shouldn't do the things listed but, in the real world, they do. In reality is it's not a good idea and more likely to cause accidents than reduce them.
 

bramling

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Very late to the party on this so please excuse any repetition on earlier posts.
I live in Wales and these are my observations.
Ditherers now do 15mph causing huge tailbacks, it can take me up to 5 minutes to get out of my local side road in a morning and often have to risk it in a small gap to stand a chance of getting out. I see pedestrians do the same when crossing the road, some of these are school children going for their buses.
Some drivers get so fed up with ditherers they overtake increasing risk off an accident. This rarely happened with a 30mph limit but is a regular occurance now.
The 20mph limit on the main road through the village is ridiculous and painfully slow, many drivers admit they lose concentration so are more likely to have an accident.
Cyclists often take to the pavement as they are going faster than the cars increasing risk to pedestrians
Some drivers accelerate like they're starting a grand prix when speed limit changes to 40mph (often to greater than the speed limit) between two villages then slam the brakes on for the 20mph, this causes an increase in pollution particularly brake dust particulates and, yes, electric vehicles release these too!
You can argue about this as much as you like and that people shouldn't do the things listed but, in the real world, they do. In reality is it's not a good idea and more likely to cause accidents than reduce them.

A very well-argued post. I agree with all of the above.
 

The Ham

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How is one person to decide what is the best choice for another person? There is no “of course” about it. What is needed is a system whereby transport users face the full costs of their choices. Then, if people choose to drive, that’s fine. In practice this would probably mean higher costs and less traffic in congested urban areas, especially at rush hours, and lower costs, more traffic (and more/better roads) in other areas and times.

The of course statement wasn't too do with forcing people to do anything, rather a statement of fact that IF people chose to use other modes of travel that is better than if they chose to drive.

The 20mph limit on the main road through the village is ridiculous and painfully slow, many drivers admit they lose concentration so are more likely to have an accident.

They would have to be distracted by over a second longer to have the same breaking distance as someone who was travelling at 30 (and longer still for someone travelling at 31 or 32, even for someone doing 23 the extra reaction time doesn't reduce by much and is probably). As such whilst the risk of an accident may increase, there's a fairly high probability that the severity of the accident decreases.

Whist the preference would be for no one to come to harm it's far better to have 10,000 people with cuts and bruises than 1 person's death.
 

slowroad

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The of course statement wasn't too do with forcing people to do anything, rather a statement of fact that IF people chose to use other modes of travel that is better than if they chose to drive.



They would have to be distracted by over a second longer to have the same breaking distance as someone who was travelling at 30 (and longer still for someone travelling at 31 or 32, even for someone doing 23 the extra reaction time doesn't reduce by much and is probably). As such whilst the risk of an accident may increase, there's a fairly high probability that the severity of the accident decreases.

Whist the preference would be for no one to come to harm it's far better to have 10,000 people with cuts and bruises than 1 person's death.
Fair enough on the choice thing, but the evidence from across countries is that the preference for driving is very high - even in countries with well developed alternatives, such as the Netherlands. And all travel involves some safety trade-offs, otherwise why not have 10 mph speed limits everywhere?

Fair enough on the choice thing, but the evidence from across countries is that the preference for driving is very high - even in countries with well developed alternatives, such as the Netherlands. And all travel involves some safety trade-offs, otherwise why not have 10 mph speed limits everywhere?
…..car modal share in the Netherlands is v similar to UK. Their active travelling alternatives seem to appeal mainly to people who might otherwise be passengers, resulting in lower bus use and lower average car occupancy.
 

Richard Scott

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They would have to be distracted by over a second longer to have the same breaking distance as someone who was travelling at 30 (and longer still for someone travelling at 31 or 32, even for someone doing 23 the extra reaction time doesn't reduce by much and is probably). As such whilst the risk of an accident may increase, there's a fairly high probability that the severity of the accident decreases.

Whist the preference would be for no one to come to harm it's far better to have 10,000 people with cuts and bruises than 1 person's death.
They admit they are and looking around, like I said you can all argue all you like but I live with this everyday and my observations are it's caused more problems than it's solved.
The severity will increase as if they'd been in a 30 limit and concentrating the accident wouldn't happen in the first place.
 

stuu

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…..car modal share in the Netherlands is v similar to UK. Their active travelling alternatives seem to appeal mainly to people who might otherwise be passengers, resulting in lower bus use and lower average car occupancy.
This is very much in the lies and statistics category... by passenger km that's true, by total journeys it's very different. It's the same for the UK - longer journeys are much more likely to be by car, so 1 person driving 100 km to work whilst 100 go 1km on foot gives a 50% modal share in passenger km terms. Which hugely skews it in favour of car travel in the eyes of decision makers
 

JamesT

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Incase anyone isn't aware, my job; Highway Engineer. As such you may have thought that I'd want as many people to drive as possible. No my job is to make the roads I design safe for all users and ensure that we don't end up with significant traffic congestion. The best way to achieve both those goals - have as many people as possible walking, and if that's not viable, cycling and if that's not viable, using public transport and if that's not viable using shared vehicles (car clubs and taxis) and then and only then then considering using there own car.
As a Highway Engineer, surely you should be aware that roads carry more than just cars? Your post was mostly about the downsides of car use, but improving roads can have positive effects on public transport or active travel. Cancelling all road projects wholesale is definitely a sign of being anti-road as it shows no consideration of any of those potential benefits.
 

slowroad

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This is very much in the lies and statistics category... by passenger km that's true, by total journeys it's very different. It's the same for the UK - longer journeys are much more likely to be by car, so 1 person driving 100 km to work whilst 100 go 1km on foot gives a 50% modal share in passenger km terms. Which hugely skews it in favour of car travel in the eyes of decision makers
You are missing my point, which was that better active travel provision has minimal impact on car use, traffic volume, and the need for roads.
 

stuu

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You are missing my point, which was that better active travel provision has minimal impact on car use, traffic volume, and the need for roads.
But that isn't right. 25-30% of all journeys in the Netherlands are by bike. That must have an impact on motorised traffic volumes
 

slowroad

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But that isn't right. 25-30% of all journeys in the Netherlands are by bike. That must have an impact on motorised traffic volumes
Negligible for 2 reasons. First, those journeys are short. Second, they mainly displace car passengers and bus passengers rather than car drivers.
 

Bikeman78

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Very late to the party on this so please excuse any repetition on earlier posts.
I live in Wales and these are my observations.
Ditherers now do 15mph causing huge tailbacks, it can take me up to 5 minutes to get out of my local side road in a morning and often have to risk it in a small gap to stand a chance of getting out. I see pedestrians do the same when crossing the road, some of these are school children going for their buses.
Some drivers get so fed up with ditherers they overtake increasing risk off an accident. This rarely happened with a 30mph limit but is a regular occurance now.
The 20mph limit on the main road through the village is ridiculous and painfully slow, many drivers admit they lose concentration so are more likely to have an accident.
Cyclists often take to the pavement as they are going faster than the cars increasing risk to pedestrians
Some drivers accelerate like they're starting a grand prix when speed limit changes to 40mph (often to greater than the speed limit) between two villages then slam the brakes on for the 20mph, this causes an increase in pollution particularly brake dust particulates and, yes, electric vehicles release these too!
You can argue about this as much as you like and that people shouldn't do the things listed but, in the real world, they do. In reality is it's not a good idea and more likely to cause accidents than reduce them.
Regulars will know that usually I cycle everywhere. I can't say that it's made any positive difference to the experience. The bus drivers are usually polite (not surprising given all the external CCTV) and the taxi drivers are still ****holes. I was following a brand new Tesla today. It had a screen about a foot square with a map on it. I would find that very annoying and distracting. Is there a way to switch it off? When the lights changed green, the driver didn't notice for a few seconds as he was too busy staring at the screen.
 
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Bletchleyite

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First, those journeys are short.

Yes, they're the easiest car journeys to get onto other modes.

Second, they mainly displace car passengers and bus passengers rather than car drivers.

Evidence please?

Regulars will know that usually cycle everywhere. I can't say that it's made any positive difference to the experience. The bus drivers are usually polite (not surprising given all the external CCTV) and the taxi drivers are still ****holes. I was following a brand new Tesla today. It had a screen about a foot square with a map on it. I would find that very annoying and distracting. Is there a way to switch it off? When the lights changed green, the driver didn't notice for a few seconds as he was too busy staring a the screen.

I definitely find that London is much nicer to cycle in now it's all 20mph, particularly on an ebike where you can accelerate very quickly and keep up with traffic fairly easily.

One thing I observed to be different in Wales though was that people were massively dawdling, not doing 20 but rather taking 10-20 seconds to reach it from each stop. This was beyond frustrating. My car (and pretty much all others) can reach 20 nearly instantly in the correct gear (1st or 2nd depending on the car) so there's no reason to be trying to do it in 5th. Only change further up once you reach the speed!
 
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48% of home-to-work trips in Amsterdam are by bicycle , 21% car, 16% bus/tram, 1% train, 14% other (walking, ferry etc.) Source NL govmt official figures. Amsterdam would grind even more to standstill if those journeys were not taken by bike.
 

Bikeman78

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I definitely find that London is much nicer to cycle in now it's all 20mph, particularly on an ebike where you can accelerate very quickly and keep up with traffic fairly easily.

One thing I observed to be different in Wales though was that people were massively dawdling, not doing 20 but rather taking 10-20 seconds to reach it from each stop. This was beyond frustrating. My car (and pretty much all others) can reach 20 nearly instantly in the correct gear (1st or 2nd depending on the car) so there's no reason to be trying to do it in 5th. Only change further up once you reach the speed!
I guess people wouldn't get above 20 in some places anyway? That's definitely true of central Cardiff at busy times. Where the traffic runs freely, I haven't noticed much difference, except where there are speed cameras.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Flintshire has adjusted some of the 20mph sections back to 30mph, mainly on through routes, with a mix in places.
These are signs that a more logical set of speed limits will appear after a while.
The blanket 30->20 was never a wise policy, although I understand it was legally easier to introduce that way.
 

bramling

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Yes, they're the easiest car journeys to get onto other modes.



Evidence please?



I definitely find that London is much nicer to cycle in now it's all 20mph, particularly on an ebike where you can accelerate very quickly and keep up with traffic fairly easily.

From a cycling perspective, I don’t think it has improved cycling in London at all. It has bunched up traffic, and seems to have reduced driver concentration and attentiveness - precisely the last thing that cyclists need to happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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From a cycling perspective, I don’t think it has improved cycling in London at all. It has bunched up traffic, and seems to have reduced driver concentration and attentiveness - precisely the last thing that cyclists need to happen.

Fundamentally if you're sharing the road with cars then you're safer if you can out-accelerate them and can go at the same speed or faster. That's why it's better. I've cycled in London often before and after it and I definitely prefer it now. The standard of driving there I'd say hasn't changed, it's still overridingly poor, though I find TfL bus drivers are quite respecting of cyclists.

I don't know how it is in the big cities to compare, the only 20s I've driven through in Wales so far are the places along the A5 where it wasn't much different, including Betws y Coed where exceeding 10 is a challenge unless it's 4am on a Sunday, and Llandudno/Llandudno Junction where I found the "dawdling" to be almost universal (and as a result the cutting-up out of junctions too).
 

Bikeman78

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The standard of driving there I'd say hasn't changed, it's still overridingly poor, though I find TfL bus drivers are quite respecting of cyclists.
That's probably because of the CCTV fitted to the vehicles. My mate used to be a driver manager with Cardiff Bus. Drivers have been dismissed on the basis of CCTV evidence following a complaint. Frankly, if someone is dull enough to threaten someone in a company vehicle plastered in cameras, they are probably in the wrong job.
 

The Ham

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As a Highway Engineer, surely you should be aware that roads carry more than just cars? Your post was mostly about the downsides of car use, but improving roads can have positive effects on public transport or active travel. Cancelling all road projects wholesale is definitely a sign of being anti-road as it shows no consideration of any of those potential benefits.

I am aware of that, however I would say that generally large scale road improvements bring far more benefits to cars than other road users.

Smaller scale, it depends on the scheme.

Enlarging a roundabout can go either way, depending on cruising facilities.

Traffic calming, can favour active travel, but not public transport.

New crossings, will favour active travel.

New bus priority (removal of bus lay-bys, bus leaves, bus gates), will favour public travel but may not help active travel.

Generally though, if you can do something to reduce car use it will benefit both active travel and public transport.
 

bramling

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Traffic calming, can favour active travel

Guess what? Much of the time traffic calming is an utter nuisance to cyclists, and at times borders on hazardous.

Like for example speed bumps or cushions which themselves can throw cyclists off their bike, and are normally accompanied by poor surface as the surface around such measures tends to deteriorate very quickly leading to potholes and other issues - which with local government being generally useless never get fixed.

Often a case of people in local government thinking they know best without actually consulting the people they claim to be trying to make life better for. It doesn’t help that many such roles seem to attract activist types, who spend far too much time trying to impose their *own* views on things, rather than actually doing their job.
 

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