222 4-car sets to become 5-car by May 22

Snow1964

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No, just the logical solution to an oddball set of four units which are difficult for EMR to diagram. XC have 38 4-car units.

It’s also unclear if a new Operator would want 23 5car units and 4 7car units. Probably a case for altering to 19 5car and 8 6car in 2024 (when they transfer Operators). Could even be more reformed as 6car if another operator wanted some 4car units. A few 4car might be good replacement for GWR shortened HST sets

Without going to far off topic, cross country could do with a fleet that has more capacity, but less than double units on some routes, so a fleet of about dozen 6car might suit them.
 
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JonathanH

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It’s also unclear if a new Operator would want 23 5car units and 4 7car units.
I don't think that is relevant. The only operator currently known to be leasing these units has difficulty allocating the four 4-car units to appropriate services so is looking to standardise their fleet.

Any future use (which is purely speculative) has no bearing on how the current operator wishes to use the units.
 

NoOnesFool

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I think it's unfair to say that First Class is under-used on the 7 Coach units. They can be very busy at times and Standard Class copes well with the four coaches (unless Euston is closed and West Coast passengers get on).

I'll be interested to see if the curtain rails are removed from the window frames. The composite coach on 222007 just had them painted over!
 

LowLevel

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I think it's unfair to say that First Class is under-used on the 7 Coach units. They can be very busy at times and Standard Class copes well with the four coaches (unless Euston is closed and West Coast passengers get on).

I'll be interested to see if the curtain rails are removed from the window frames. The composite coach on 222007 just had them painted over!
I disagree. The 7 cars have always been overly busy in standard and rarely busy in first, except occasionally at the weekend when they might fill up with weekend first. They're little better than a 5 car with the disadvantage of being a longer train to accommodate.
 

BJames

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I disagree. The 7 cars have always been overly busy in standard and rarely busy in first, except occasionally at the weekend when they might fill up with weekend first. They're little better than a 5 car with the disadvantage of being a longer train to accommodate.
Agreed. Been frustrating even in recent weekends where some 5s have been doubled up to make 9 and 10, but instead a 7 car turns up and is absolutely rammed in standard, with first sparsely populated. I'm happy to hear this change is taking place.
 

QSK19

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Agreed. Been frustrating even in recent weekends where some 5s have been doubled up to make 9 and 10, but instead a 7 car turns up and is absolutely rammed in standard, with first sparsely populated. I'm happy to hear this change is taking place.
I really hope this isn’t a bad sign for the 810s. I know 33 have been ordered (versus 27 IC units now); but I can just imagine less doubled-up services than promised/forecast, hence meaning that the overcrowding issue won’t go away. Hopefully the first/standard class split will have been decided appropriately.

Ditto, though - a good change to lengthen the 4 car 222s to 5 car: more fleet standardisation and hopefully will make the transition to the 810s as easy as possible.
 

edwin_m

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I don't think that is relevant. The only operator currently known to be leasing these units has difficulty allocating the four 4-car units to appropriate services so is looking to standardise their fleet.

Any future use (which is purely speculative) has no bearing on how the current operator wishes to use the units.
Indeed. EMT re-formed these units previously and EMR are doing so now, so obviously it's not impossibly difficult to do and any future operator ought to be able to re-form them as they wish.
I really hope this isn’t a bad sign for the 810s. I know 33 have been ordered (versus 27 IC units now); but I can just imagine less doubled-up services than promised/forecast, hence meaning that the overcrowding issue won’t go away. Hopefully the first/standard class split will have been decided appropriately.

Ditto, though - a good change to lengthen the 4 car 222s to 5 car: more fleet standardisation and hopefully will make the transition to the 810s as easy as possible.
It does give a contingency for late delivery, in that a timetable based on mostly 5-car units can probably be operated by either class. They just have to make sure that any splits/joins are diagrammed for the same class and that there are a few diagrams that don't split/join or share platforms so the 7-cars can work them - or withdraw the 7-cars as soon as the first few 810s arrive.
 

JonathanH

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Or split them into 5 and 9-car combinations
I suspect that having two 9-car units isn't particularly worthwhile (although perhaps no worse to manage than having the 180s in the fleet). If it was worthwhile, it might have been done as part of the same process that is lengthening 222101-222104.
 

Nottingham59

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I suspect that having two 9-car units isn't particularly worthwhile
It will be when the timetable is arranged around the 810 fleet, which will only operate trains that are 5 or 10 cars in length. They could of course cut all the 7-cars down to 5, but my thinking was that would throw away usable capacity before the 810s all arrive
 

tbtc

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Or split them into 5 and 9-car combinations

I suspect that having two 9-car units isn't particularly worthwhile (although perhaps no worse to manage than having the 180s in the fleet). If it was worthwhile, it might have been done as part of the same process that is lengthening 222101-222104.

I've not idea what *will* happen, but if they did have a couple of nine coach trains then at least they could use them on diagrams that required double up five coach sets - since it should have broadly the same number of seats (e.g. if the IET experience has taught me anything it's that 5 + 5 = 9), so a couple of nine coach trains would be more useful than slightly more seven coach trains, since a nine coach is pretty much the same as two five coaches in terms of capacity, whilst a seven coach train is "neither nowt nor summat" as they say in these parts
 

swt_passenger

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I've not idea what *will* happen, but if they did have a couple of nine coach trains then at least they could use them on diagrams that required double up five coach sets - since it should have broadly the same number of seats (e.g. if the IET experience has taught me anything it's that 5 + 5 = 9), so a couple of nine coach trains would be more useful than slightly more seven coach trains, since a nine coach is pretty much the same as two five coaches in terms of capacity, whilst a seven coach train is "neither nowt nor summat" as they say in these parts
I think you’re right in principle, but the proposal might be caught out if the depot facilities don’t allow a 9 car train to be maintained in complete form.
 

QSK19

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I think you’re right in principle, but the proposal might be caught out if the depot facilities don’t allow a 9 car train to be maintained in complete form.
Given that Midland Mainline introduced some of the 222s in 9 car formation, would have thought that the depot facilities do allow them? That’s unless they have been reconfigured somehow since the 9 car units were shortened.

In any case, it would be like going the full circle - some started as 9 car and some would end that way!
 

swt_passenger

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Given that Midland Mainline introduced some of the 222s in 9 car formation, would have thought that the depot facilities do allow them? That’s unless they have been reconfigured somehow since the 9 car units were shortened.

In any case, it would be like going the full circle - some started as 9 car and some would end that way!
I wasn’t sure, but from what you say it probably isn’t a problem then.
 

edwin_m

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I've not idea what *will* happen, but if they did have a couple of nine coach trains then at least they could use them on diagrams that required double up five coach sets - since it should have broadly the same number of seats (e.g. if the IET experience has taught me anything it's that 5 + 5 = 9), so a couple of nine coach trains would be more useful than slightly more seven coach trains, since a nine coach is pretty much the same as two five coaches in terms of capacity, whilst a seven coach train is "neither nowt nor summat" as they say in these parts
I thought I read somewhere that the space-inefficiency of 222s means that a 7-car has fewer seats than a 5-car 810. That may be partly addressed by reducing the proportion of first-class, but a 9-car 222 will still fall well short of the seating in a 10-car 810. It might be that they can use 9-car 222s on diagrams where a 5-car 810 would be overcrowded and 10-car have a lot of space, or keep them as 7-cars on diagrams that will ultimately become 5-car 810s but never split/join or share a platform.
 

tbtc

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I thought I read somewhere that the space-inefficiency of 222s means that a 7-car has fewer seats than a 5-car 810. That may be partly addressed by reducing the proportion of first-class, but a 9-car 222 will still fall well short of the seating in a 10-car 810. It might be that they can use 9-car 222s on diagrams where a 5-car 810 would be overcrowded and 10-car have a lot of space, or keep them as 7-cars on diagrams that will ultimately become 5-car 810s but never split/join or share a platform.

I agree that any 810 will have more seats than an equivalent number of coach length of 222 - the 222s are inefficiently designed as you say plus the 810s will be 24m carriages - I was meaning that a 9 coach 222 would be equivalent to a 5+5 length 222 (i.e. if the plan is to run some 5 coach 222s doubled up then there would be some diagrams that a 9 coach could be used on)

I'd not read that a 5 coach 810 will have more seats than a 7 coach 222 but that's pretty shaming! I'm looking forward to the new trains even more now
 

TheBigD

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Assuming that Wikipedia is correct, the 810s will have 47 first and 254 std, 301 seats in total.

For comparison...
222/5 has 50/190 seats, 240 in total
222/7 has 106/232 seats, 338 in total
 

Clansman

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Assuming that Wikipedia is correct, the 810s will have 47 first and 254 std, 301 seats in total.

For comparison...
222/5 has 50/190 seats, 240 in total
222/7 has 106/232 seats, 338 in total
Just goes to show how wasteful the 22Xs truly are.
 

DannyMich2018

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Assuming that Wikipedia is correct, the 810s will have 47 first and 254 std, 301 seats in total.

For comparison...
222/5 has 50/190 seats, 240 in total
222/7 has 106/232 seats, 338 in total
I travel on the EMR 222s regularly and agree how wasteful they are regarding poor seating capacity. Of course the 810s won't have a buffet counter so that takes up space and the 222s have 2 disabled loos (one in each driving car) which eats into their capacity.
 

hooverboy

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I really hope this isn’t a bad sign for the 810s. I know 33 have been ordered (versus 27 IC units now); but I can just imagine less doubled-up services than promised/forecast, hence meaning that the overcrowding issue won’t go away. Hopefully the first/standard class split will have been decided appropriately.

Ditto, though - a good change to lengthen the 4 car 222s to 5 car: more fleet standardisation and hopefully will make the transition to the 810s as easy as possible.
I would certainly concur that the split between first and standard needs to be properly done. the 222's at present are vastly short of standard/oversupply of 1st.
It needs addressing for sure.
80:20 split is really the maximum that should be envisaged...even with the uplift of seats on an 810 v a meridian,
 

philthetube

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If they are going to muck about with the seating wouldnt it be best to get as close to the 810 provision as possible, to make them as interchangeable as possible during the transition - ie a late substitution has less effect on reservations etc?

I think reservations are never going to be compatible across the 810s- but having a similar ratio would definitely make sense!
It could probably be done, just leave out of the booking system any which would cause issues
 

liamf656

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I’m told that 222005 and 222101 are being taken out of service this weekend to have their formations altered
 

hooverboy

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I thought I read somewhere that the space-inefficiency of 222s means that a 7-car has fewer seats than a 5-car 810. That may be partly addressed by reducing the proportion of first-class, but a 9-car 222 will still fall well short of the seating in a 10-car 810. It might be that they can use 9-car 222s on diagrams where a 5-car 810 would be overcrowded and 10-car have a lot of space, or keep them as 7-cars on diagrams that will ultimately become 5-car 810s but never split/join or share a platform.
given that 222's have badly arranged buffet/galley/parcels areas it will not be at all difficult for an 810 with properly managed seating to provide 20% Improvement on capacity.More so if you alter the ratio of standard to first to something more realistic.

I gather the 810's are earmarked for 250 standard + 50 first.
That's quite a jump from a 5 car meridian 267 total(of which 70 are first)
 

dosxuk

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Other than the Meridians themselves obviously. And the Turbostars that the Meridians replaced.

Unfortunately the 810's will themselves be in a sorry state in 20 years time if they receive as little attention as the 222's have over their lifetime.
 

Mikw

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Other than the Meridians themselves obviously. And the Turbostars that the Meridians replaced.

Unfortunately the 810's will themselves be in a sorry state in 20 years time if they receive as little attention as the 222's have over their lifetime.
Yeah, i really like the Meridians, but they're getting tacky now. I'll be amazed if the 810's last as long given their issues already.
 

QSK19

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As an EMR user i'd take any new trains, ANY new trains, we never get any.
I think the MML has done well in terms of new Intercity stock over the years (Turbostars, Meridians and 810s); but it’s the non-Intercity stock that the East Midlands has been treated extremely poorly on - examples being inheriting the Central Trains 15x in appalling condition (whilst the decent stuff went to the West Midlands), receiving run-into-the-ground 360s from GA, getting “new” Regional stock which is 20+ years old. The list could go on. I think if the DfT does the decent thing and authorises the promised full internal refurbishment of the 170s and 360s, which are then cared for properly going forward, they’ll be very good trains.
 

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