30% of TPE services cancelled Thursday 8 June

[Howardh]

Phew, thank goodness I'm on a Northern to Blackpool! Although not perfect they are remarkably better than in the late 2010's, which gives me hope that TPE will one day be reliable.
However the thought is if TPEs few services were taken over by Northern, we would have a reduced timetable but more joined-up r/e connections, alternatives and ticketing where we aren't concerned whether one will accept the other?
After all aren't they both now (or going to be) under last resort management?

 

[Goldfish62]

Here is chapter and verse from ACAS on refusal to TUPE to a new employer :

Transferring to your new employer: Your TUPE rights – employee advice - Acas

Advice for employees on what happens before, during and after a TUPE transfer and what to do if you do not want to transfer.

www.acas.org.uk

So as others have said employment ends with no redundancy payment or payment in lieu of notice at the date of transfer.

If you do not want to transfer​

If you do not want to transfer to the new employer, you can refuse, but you would usually have no rights to claim:

• redundancy pay
• unfair dismissal

Before you make a decision, it’s a good idea to explore all your options. You might want to contact the Acas helpline or get legal advice.

If you decide you do not want to transfer, you’ll need to tell your current employer in writing. They will treat this as if you’re resigning and they’ll need to inform the new employer that you will not transfer.

It's a good idea to tell your employer early on in case there are other options for you.

Your current employer may decide to offer you an alternative job. If they do and you accept, your length of service ('period of continuous employment') will continue if the new role starts before the date of the transfer. Your employer will tell the new employer you will no longer be transferring.

If they do not offer you an alternative job, your employment will end on the date the transfer takes place. If the transfer happens before your notice period ends, you will not need to work beyond the transfer date. You will not be paid for the remainder of your notice period

 

[43066]

That's a bad enough attitude to customer service on a normal day of TPE disruption.

On a day like today, where there are no TPE services whatsoever from York to Leeds for nearly 6 hours (09:40 to 15:20), that's inexcusable.

Inexcusable, or just sensible and pragmatic demand management by Northern? The other alternatives might be:

- blanket denial of TPE ticket acceptance;

- blanket acceptance leading to their own trains being crush loaded, so that their own customers can’t use them, and it becomes unsafe for their own staff to operate them.

Both are likely worse outcomes!

It’s easy just to dismiss it as “inexcusable” on a discussion forum, but it isn’t particularly helpful or illuminating. It also rather ignores the reality that the people who make these decisions have to operate in the real world and make compromises and judgment calls, often under tight time pressure.

 

[Mcrdvr]

Unless both sides can come together to put an end to this situation, it would be less painful in the long term to just terminate all TPE services, lay off the staff, mothball the fleet and close the company down.

Priority routes with no alternatives to bus substitutions.

Allocate a year to establishing a completely new, built from the ground up operation with new routes, timetables and staff.

In the absence of both sides playing their part in delivering a proper service, what other option is there.

Unless both sides can come together to put an end to this situation, it would be less painful in the long term to just terminate all TPE services, lay off the staff, mothball the fleet and close the company down.

Priority routes with no alternatives to bus substitutions.

Allocate a year to establishing a completely new, built from the ground up operation with new routes, timetables and staff.

In the absence of both sides playing their part in delivering a proper service, what other option is there.

LoL crazy boy - it just needs the company to adhere to the drivers terms and conditions then rest day working would recommence and in the words of the great soprendo 'piff, paff, puff' all the cancellations would disappear like magic

 

[43066]

So as others have said employment ends with no redundancy payment or payment in lieu of notice at the date of transfer.

So likely the leavers will either have jobs lined up, or perhaps be retirees.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Since there is no short term fix to the staff issue (the lack of, not the dispute), for how long until a practical emergency timetable (correlate with the actual non-overtime staff hours) should be in place? And for the core services, for example between Liverpool Manchester Leeds and York, should some services be re-assigned to other ToCs to cover the lost capacity due to the everyday cancellations?

There was talk in the new Interim MDs staff address last week of "some difficult choices coming up" and there was a hint of temporary timetable from July. July is the earliest one could happen anyway as the next driver's roster changes aren't due until then.

In terms of transferring services to other TOCS, this is impossible, as no other TOCS have any spare crews or rolling stock lying around which are able to fill the gaps.

 

[Howardh]

There was talk in the new Interim MDs staff address last week of "some difficult choices coming up" and there was a hint of temporary timetable from July. July is the earliest one could happen anyway as the next driver's roster changes aren't due until then.

In terms of transferring services to other TOCS, this is impossible, as no other TOCS have any spare crews or rolling stock lying around which are able to fill the gaps.

Temporary timetable can't come soon enough, although there may be pax with advances for the first train to the airport (etc) who might be anxious of that altered or removed.
Hope it's taken into consideration.

 

[LYuen]

So am I right in assuming nobody with a brain would be booking a TPE for as far away as November ?

Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle, Thursday 2nd November at 16:24 £27.90 for 2 adults, with a railcard

If your booked train is cancelled they have to offer you alternative service.
From Lime Street to Manchester there is Northern (May need a transfer from Deansgate/Oxfd Rd to Victoria)
From Manchester Victoria to Leeds there is Northern
From Leeds to York there are CrossCountry and Northern
From York to Newcastle there are CrossCountry and LNER
Those alternatives are slower but you shouldn't need to pay extra to make this journey.

I was reading an article recently (Rail Advent or something like that) that said everyone in the whole wide world that had an opinion or were involved recommended that FG were awarded a 6 month extension as things were actually starting to get better and when the idiot unilaterally stripped FG of the franchise their were Amazonian Tribesmen who had never seen a train let alone traveled on one, knew it would be a stupid idea and this would just make things worse... Gotta love the Tories*...... (*No don't, really do not)

If they had improved from 30% cancellation to 25% it were still unacceptable. I don't even think they had achieved such.
Avanti on the other hand did improved - from the emergency timetable of 1 tph between Manchester and London between August and December, to a more or less normal timetable now.
Had TPE improved for an equivalent degree, I would say it is worth giving TPE another chance. However, they had been in such poor form before Avanti was criticised and showed no sign of significant improvement til May this year (not even a reliable emergency timetable), I cannot see why they should be given more time.

It is a separate topic of whether OLR will work, but at least now DfT can no longer blame a private company on this issue. They has to fix it.
Though I still think it is easier to let other companies to temporarily or permanently run some of TPE's services than waiter the TPE OLR to hire and train enough drivers.

 

[josh-j]

Only gonna get worse while the government cares more about provoking industrial action to "prove" that unions are bad than they do about running public transport properly. Riling various sections of the public up against each other is all they have, but unfortunately they're pretty good at it.

 

[LYuen]

In terms of transferring services to other TOCS, this is impossible, as no other TOCS have any spare crews or rolling stock lying around which are able to fill the gaps.

Not exactly, Northern does Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road, Chester and Wigan to Leeds via Manchester (not via Huddersfield), and standalone Leeds to York services.
With some adjustment to the timetable these could form a semi-fast service from Liverpool all the way to York, as the alternative to TPE's express transpennine north route.

 

[RHolmes]

Not exactly, Northern does Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road, Chester and Wigan to Leeds via Manchester (not via Huddersfield), and standalone Leeds to York services.
With some adjustment to the timetable these could form a semi-fast service from Liverpool all the way to York, as the alternative to TPE's express transpennine north route.

Except they couldn’t because the existing traincrew and trains are required to perform the existing route.

Cutting stations that currently only have 1 train an hour are used heavily to provide a fantasy service isn’t a good idea.

 

[yorkie]

So am I right in assuming nobody with a brain would be booking a TPE for as far away as November ?

Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle, Thursday 2nd November at 16:24 £27.90 for 2 adults, with a railcard

As I said in the other thread, as long as you don't mind being potentially a couple of hours late, by all means go for it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I said in the other thread, as long as you don't mind being potentially a couple of hours late, by all means go for it!

The upside of this is of course that if not time-pressured a free or half-price journey is extremely likely.

 

[mike57]

On a day like today, where there are no TPE services whatsoever from York to Leeds for nearly 6 hours (09:40 to 15:20)

This just underlines how bad things are, York-Leeds-Manchester is one of the major routes in England, and so far just 6 services have made it to Manchester from York today, all as @Watershed points out before 09:40.

I still dont understand why an emergency timetable has not been introduced, the resulting timetable may not be what passengers want, but at least you can plan around it.

A look at the TPE journey check page shows 70 services cancelled and another 28 curtailed to some degree today.

To me the only solution is to introduce a timetable which can be delivered with the available resources, and only add services when the various issues which have got things to this state are fully resolved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the only solution is to introduce a timetable which can be delivered with the available resources, and only add services when the various issues which have got things to this state are fully resolved.

Yes, an emergency timetable, as Avanti did, is urgently necessary.

 

[yorkie]

I got a Northern train from York to Leeds; where I was sat a few people chose to stand instead of sit next to someone but I think everyone could have sat down if they had wanted to.

I am now on a Northern from Leeds to to Manchester and there are very few passengers sat near me. Other than rail staff travelling as passengers, there is only one other person in the 15 seats in the section I am in.

Where are all the passengers?!

Incidentally when I asked to be re-routed, I was told to contact the retailer to obtain a refund and to re-book! Does anyone think this is acceptable/excusable?

 

[mike57]

Where are all the passengers?!

Points to people taking other modes of transport if they have to travel, and/or not travelling if its leisure. I for one have severely limited my business travel to the NW and only do face 2 face if there is really no alternative since the lastest round of problems at TPE. Previously I would travel over for the day most weeks.

 

[LYuen]

I got a Northern train from York to Leeds; where I was sat a few people chose to stand instead of sit next to someone but I think everyone could have sat down if they had wanted to.

I am now on a Northern from Leeds to to Manchester and there are very few passengers sat near me. Other than rail staff travelling as passengers, there is only one other person in the 15 seats in the section I am in.

Where are all the passengers?!

Incidentally when I asked to be re-routed, I was told to contact the retailer to obtain a refund and to re-book! Does anyone think this is acceptable/excusable?

I suspect the staff thought you wanted to change the destination instead of looking for an alternative service to reach your booked destination due to the booked train being cancelled.
Anyway, TPE website above has explicitly stated that you could take the next available TransPennine Express, LNER or Northern service, it is fine to simply board these services and go.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect the staff thought you wanted to change the destination instead of looking for an alternative service to reach your booked destination due to the booked train being cancelled.

I just asked if I could be re-routed via other operators, due to the lack of information regarding ticket acceptance.

Anyway, TPE website above has explicitly stated that you could take the next available TransPennine Express, LNER or Northern service, it is fine to simply board these services and go.

Thanks. Yes I realise now, but at the time...

 

[RHolmes]

Yes, an emergency timetable, as Avanti did, is urgently necessary.

It is worth remembering though that introducing an emergency timetable brings about its own unique issues.

Most services ran as expected for passengers, albeit many of them overcrowded during events such as Football matches and weekend leisure, but behind the scenes this lead to further traincrew issues. I worked services on event days that passengers had to wait over 4 hours for the next service because they were crush loaded before even arriving at intermediate stations.

When the south route went to 2 hourly, the drivers were all (metaphorically) fighting to try and work the limited running trains, leading to even further training backlogs because drivers couldn’t maintain their own competency, or complete training by the required deadlines.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The impression I had was that there were a number of TPE drivers with jobs lined up at other TOCs/FOCs but were just working their notice. They were then handed an opportunity to leave months earlier than they would otherwise have been able to and, understandably, jumped at it.

“If you don’t like conditions here then get another job”. So they did, and DafT held the door open and hailed them a taxi.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: strike action and work-to-rule is just the tip of any iceberg in a company. In the long-term the strikes aren’t the problem, chances are more employers can outlast any strikers in a dispute. But the staff who have their fill of the BS decide to leave, the ones out the door are always your best staff, and it can take years to repair the damage.

Yes, an emergency timetable, as Avanti did, is urgently necessary.

For most of the dispute period TPE have already been running a reduced timetable. They couldn’t even manage to operate that properly.

 

[Greybeard33]

There was talk in the new Interim MDs staff address last week of "some difficult choices coming up" and there was a hint of temporary timetable from July. July is the earliest one could happen anyway as the next driver's roster changes aren't due until then.

In the Rail North Committee meeting yesterday, Chris Jackson (TPE Interim MD) said he had commissioned an "operational deep dive" into TPE's problems, to report back later this month. This will result in a "stabilisation plan", which he offered to present to committee members in late July.

Richard George (DOHL chair) was also present and both he and Jackson seemed to be well aware of the issues described by TPE staff in this and previous threads. They said that they were seeking a "reset" in relationships with trades unions, staff, customers and the Rail North Committee. Discussions with ASLEF are a priority.

George emphasised that the long term aim was to recruit and train sufficient drivers to resource TPE services without reliance on Rest Day Working. But an agreement to resume overtime would act as an "accelerator" in clearing the driver training backlog.

The relevant part of the meeting starts at about 1:39:00 in the webcast:

Rail North Committee - Wednesday 7 June 2023, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

Rail North Committee - Wednesday 7 June 2023, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

transportforthenorth.public-i.tv

 

[YorkshireBear]

In the Rail North Committee meeting yesterday, Chris Jackson (TPE Interim MD) said he had commissioned an "operational deep dive" into TPE's problems, to report back later this month. This will result in a "stabilisation plan", which he offered to present to committee members in late July.

Richard George (DOHL chair) was also present and both he and Jackson seemed to be well aware of the issues described by TPE staff in this and previous threads. They said that they were seeking a "reset" in relationships with trades unions, staff, customers and the Rail North Committee. Discussions with ASLEF are a priority.

George emphasised that the long term aim was to recruit and train sufficient drivers to resource TPE services without reliance on Rest Day Working. But an agreement to resume overtime would act as an "accelerator" in clearing the driver training backlog.

The relevant part of the meeting starts at about 1:39:00 in the webcast:

Rail North Committee - Wednesday 7 June 2023, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

Rail North Committee - Wednesday 7 June 2023, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

transportforthenorth.public-i.tv

I would view this as positive. Chris Jackson as far as I am aware is also well respected, and from the calm and coherently sensible comments here I would agree. At first glance anyway. I am sure we all wish him luck on what will now be a 2-3 year recovery plan.



I need to get back from Manchester Victoria to Leeds tonight and have checked and given up on TPE and will be using Northern instead.
I note there are 20 scheduled services for the remainder of the day Manchester Victoria to Leeds, 5 currently expected to run.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Three out of four TPE services from Sheffield to Manchester/Liverpool over the evening peak period (at 1611/1711/1911) are showing as cancelled "because of a short-notice change to the timetable".

I was looking at the the National Rail Enquiries site to check trains at this time from Sheffield on 9/6/23 as I shall be going to a meeting in Sheffield city centre tomorrow, so looked at the situation today out of interest. Given the situation today, I shall travel to Sheffield by car instead and use the tram from a "park-and-ride" facility.

Journey Planner - Trains Times and Fares - National Rail Enquiries

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

ojp.nationalrail.co.uk

View attachment 136870

The journey planner doesn't show the Northern stopping services.

 

[Howardh]

I got a Northern train from York to Leeds; where I was sat a few people chose to stand instead of sit next to someone but I think everyone could have sat down if they had wanted to.

I am now on a Northern from Leeds to to Manchester and there are very few passengers sat near me. Other than rail staff travelling as passengers, there is only one other person in the 15 seats in the section I am in.

Where are all the passengers?!

...avoiding the trains in general and TPE in particular.
Unless trains can be guaranteed pax will drive, use buses/coaches or if for leisure not bother.
It's doing the TOC's and local economies no good whatsoever. I imagine Yorkshire resorts from Scarborough to Harrogate are very angry?

 

[daodao]

The journey planner doesn't show the Northern stopping services.

I was looking at journeys from Sheffield to Altrincham, for which one changes at Stockport, not served by Northern Rail trains from Sheffield to Manchester. The purpose of the attachment was solely to show the cancellation of 3 of the 4 TPE-run services from 1611-1911 inclusive on 8/6/23.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there anything new today? Or is this just the longstanding industrial relations issue which have been debated extensively before.

Can anyone advise of actual trains departing from York towards Manchester for this afternoon please? They are all showing as cancelled, but it can't be the case that there are no trains whatsoever; can anyone advise if I should be taking Northern on a TPE Only ticket, or should I be going via Sheffield, or something else?

There doesn't seem to be any information regarding what to do!

As one who seems well versed about York and its reputation as one of Britain's major tourist attractions for visitors from home and abroad, how much has the TPE fiasco and other associated railway disputes has affected the expected annual visitor returns there. When my wife was alive in pre-Covid times, our three-year Senior Citizen Railcards were used to visit York from Manchester Airport twice a month.

 

[Gaelan]

There’s official ticket acceptance with Northern anyway, so long as there’s no alternate TPE train within 59 minutes.

It’s just not publically advertised to prevent Northern services from being overcrowded with what little capacity some routes have.

If ticket acceptance is agreed in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[Some guy]

To be fair a lot of them was due to a tree falling down north of Lockerbie

 

[Silenos]

If ticket acceptance is agreed in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Yes, the sound of one hand not knowing what the other one is clapping