377/6

[Class377/5]

There are some cosmetic differences between the 375s and 377s units. The 377 have external CCTV with in cab monitors for one, but not sure what other differences there are. Could software be the reason behind the split?

There are 2 different types of head lights within the 375s/377s, are these reason to have a different subclass?

Not just the software. Driver windows set up on Electrostars is sub standard so shouldn't be DOO without external cameras.

 

[87015]

Not just the software. Driver windows set up on Electrostars is sub standard so shouldn't be DOO without external cameras.

357s are DOO without on-board cameras, although it has been talked about to retro-fit cameras and remove platform equipment for reliability purposes.

 

[Class377/5]

357s are DOO without on-board cameras, although it has been talked about to retro-fit cameras and remove platform equipment for reliability purposes.

They may have grandfather rights but 375/377 are not suitable for DOO set up as driver can't look out the window from driving position. Not sure how that applies to 357 as I deal with 377's.

 

[A-driver]

The only difference between 375 & 377 was the coupling. Originally they were all 375 and when the central units were 're-couplered' to dellners they were re numbered 377. 375s now also have the same dellners coupler but they havnt changed they number.

DOO cameras have nothing to do with it-they only have them on the southern units as the eastern ones were never intended to work without a guard and too many southern platforms use look back dispatch which isn't practice on a 377.

Same reason that 170s became 171s.

 

[paul1609]

Not sure that thats the only reason for the 171/170s split. My understanding is that the 4 car 171 units have non standard wiring within the units for door release.
As a result the 4 car units could never be changed in to 170s. The 2 car units can be quite easily be changed between 170/1 with a coupling change.

 

[bronzeonion]

357's have a better view out of the windscreen as it is a full width cab virtually the same as a Turbostar so that's why the moniters can be viewed from the cab.

 

[Class377/5]

According to new Modern Railways first 377/6 will enter service 20th September and three units a month will be needed off the production line to have all 26 ready by December timetable change. There's also a internal layout of the 377/6 in the mag too.

 

[fgwrich]

According to new Modern Railways first 377/6 will enter service 20th September and three units a month will be needed off the production line to have all 26 ready by December timetable change. There's also a internal layout of the 377/6 in the mag too.

I see there's also a pic in Modern Railways of the interior too. Not so sure about the 'mock' Grammer seats (they look like a cheaper version of the Grammer HST / 158 Seats), with all those bright green grab handles!

 

[Class377/5]

I see there's also a pic in Modern Railways of the interior too. Not so sure about the 'mock' Grammer seats (they look like a cheaper version of the Grammer HST / 158 Seats), with all those bright green grab handles!

Curious to see what they are like in person. Least we haven idea when now.

 

[W230]

375s now also have the same dellners coupler but they havnt changed they number.

Incidentally (on a bit of a tangent), i've often wondered why the 377s have the dellner couplers 'upside down' in respect of Meridian's etc, or is there more to it than that?

Surely it wasn't a ridiculous oversight and is more simply that they would never have been able to couple electrically anyway due to configuration problems with MITRAC/(insert 220/221/222 on train computer here)?!

I hope so anyway!

 

[swt_passenger]

The coupler itself isn't really 'upside down', it's just that the separate electrical connectors can be mounted over or under. A DMU is never going to multiple with an EMU anyway, but as long as the mechanical coupler is the same height coupling for rescue purposes should still be possible.

EG if a 377 needed to rescue a 171, the electrical connectors would not advance, just the mechanical latch would engage.

I think the only situation there is where a class you'd expect to be able to multiple OK, but cannot physically electrically connect, is the 380 and the other electric Desiros.

 

[WestCountry]

DMU is never going to multiple with an EMU anyway

Class 210s were designed to work with 317s in multiple.
And before you point out that they're DEMUs, so are 22x units!

 

[D365]

DMU is never going to multiple with an EMU anyway

Class 210s were designed to work with 317s in multiple.
And before you point out that they're DEMUs, so are 22x units! :P

The E makes all the difference! Don't suppose a 210 and 317 have ever actually coupled? - sure was an interesting concept.

 

[jopsuk]

Class 210s were designed to work with 317s in multiple.
And before you point out that they're DEMUs, so are 22x units!

I don't believe they ever actually tested this capability during their short life though, did they?

 

[TheJRB]

Regarding the mainline testing of the 377/6s:

Static testing of the first train is due to commence in February, with the completed unit expected to leave Derby in the late spring or early summer.
Testing on the mainline is to take place around Kent.

A quick look on realtime trains (headcodes from Network Rail WTT) brings up some interesting workings I've not seen before. I can't think of any other reason why something would work from Stewarts Lane to these destinations (especially since the 460s have all gone now)...

5Z41 0103 London Victoria to Maidstone East
5Z42 0200 London Victoria to Maidstone East
5Z31 0326 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Ashford International
5Z36 1150 Ashford International to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D
5Z37 1409 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Dover Priory
5Z38 1617 Dover Priory to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D
5Z39 1952 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Dover Priory
5Z40 2311 Dover Priory to London Victoria
5Z42 0200 Maidstone East to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D

All say "Timed for 100mph, Electric Multiple Unit, Runs as required". It doesn't appear that any of them have run yet this year either.

Could these be the test runs due to start in the summer?

 

[Class377/5]

Regarding the mainline testing of the 377/6s:

A quick look on realtime trains (headcodes from Network Rail WTT) brings up some interesting workings I've not seen before. I can't think of any other reason why something would work from Stewarts Lane to Ashford or Dover Priory (especially since the 460s have all gone now)...

5Z31 0326 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Ashford International
5Z36 1150 Ashford International to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D
5Z37 1409 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Dover Priory
5Z38 1617 Dover Priory to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D
5Z39 1952 Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D to Dover Priory

All say "Timed for 100mph, Electric Multiple Unit, Runs as required". There are some other EMU workings with the same characteristics but I only included those to/from Stewarts Lane. It doesn't appear that any of them have run yet this year either.

Could these be the test runs due to start in the summer?

Well Dover was on the list of places to go. Will ask someone who knows one of the drivers whose doing the testing.

Edit : Don't be too sure these are right. The delivery paths for the 378 & 377/5 fleets are still live.

 

[southern442]

will there be 1st class on these trains?

 

[TrainBoy98]

will there be 1st class on these trains?

No idea, especially as there is now /6s /7s and maybe /8s. Each would be different, but we don't know how...

 

[D365]

No idea, especially as there is now /6s /7s and maybe /8s. Each would be different, but we don't know how...

The only difference between a /6 (26) and /7 (8) should be that the latter is fitted as dual voltage, as both batches are specced identically otherwise. The (116+140 carriages, 29+35) /8, however, we don't know yet!

(TrainBoy98, those bracketed values are subclass sizes)

 

[TrainBoy98]

How many new sets are actually going to be built in total?

 

[Manchester77]

/6 - 26
/7 - 8
/8 - 29

 

[TrainBoy98]

Nice amount of new trains then! OOI, why cant they all just be the same sub-class? Or added on to previous ones?

 

[D365]

The current build (/6-7) is formed of 5 car rather than 4 (or 3) carriage units. Why the additional DV units are in a separate subclass seems to make absolutely no sense, as opposed to being 627-634 or 691-699.

/8 will likely be different to previous builds - 110mph is still specified IIRC. A different livery may be ordered, seeing as current franchises will be coming to an end. Other changes as well, I'm sure.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Oh goodie! Higher top speed; ready for AC I suppose?

 

[D365]

If the spec hasn't changed, 110mph will be true. Bombardier definitely won the 116+140, but as there was that quiet period precluding it, anything could have changed. Bombardier may not even have been able to push a 377 (or 379) to 110mph!

This latest lot will be DV of course for their initial interim Thameslink duties and any future use.

 

[Class377/5]

If the spec hasn't changed, 110mph will be true. Bombardier definitely won the 116+140, but as there was that quiet period precluding it, anything could have changed. Bombardier may not even have been able to push a 377 (or 379) to 110mph!

This latest lot will be DV of course for their initial interim Thameslink duties and any future use.

Technically they won 116 with a possible 140 carriages down the line.

The 377/6 /7 & /8 are all 379 Electrostar/Adventra hybrids with 377 software.

will there be 1st class on these trains?

The 377/6 & /7 don't have first class as they will work Metro routes only. The '377/8' will have first class.

No idea, especially as there is now /6s /7s and maybe /8s. Each would be different, but we don't know how...

377/6
26x five car standard class only DC units

377/7
8x five car standard class only dual voltage units

377/8
29x four car 1st/standard clad dual voltage 110mph 'capable'* units

*110mph won't be used on Thameslink as they will be diagrammed to interwork with the 377/5 & /2's.

The current build (/6-7) is formed of 5 car rather than 4 (or 3) carriage units. Why the additional DV units are in a separate subclass seems to make absolutely no sense, as opposed to being 627-634 or 691-699.

/8 will likely be different to previous builds - 110mph is still specified IIRC. A different livery may be ordered, seeing as current franchises will be coming to an end. Other changes as well, I'm sure.

Because dual voltage units tend to have a different sub class, ie 375/6, 350/1, 377/2. Having same sub class can lead to confusion so its a simple solution.

The 377/8 is same as 377/7 but with one less carriage. Don't forget the 350/1 were 100mph units initially as the 350/2 subclass isn't being cleared for the higher running speeds.

Livery is expected to be the TSGN livery.

 

[westcoaster]

If the spec hasn't changed, 110mph will be true. Bombardier definitely won the 116+140, but as there was that quiet period precluding it, anything could have changed. Bombardier may not even have been able to push a 377 (or 379) to 110mph!

This latest lot will be DV of course for their initial interim Thameslink duties and any future use.

377/2 + 5's certainly capable of 120 mph plus easy but limited to 100 mph.

 

[southern442]

If the spec hasn't changed, 110mph will be true. Bombardier definitely won the 116+140, but as there was that quiet period precluding it, anything could have changed. Bombardier may not even have been able to push a 377 (or 379) to 110mph!

This latest lot will be DV of course for their initial interim Thameslink duties and any future use.

The fastest 3rd rail unit was a 442 that went 108mph, so especially for new gen emu's it shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[Manchester77]

It's more likely that the 110 is specified for AC running

 

[D365]

Technically they won 116 with a possible 140 carriages down the line.

The 377/6 /7 & /8 are all 379 Electrostar/Aventra hybrids with 377 software.

Yeah, that's what I've always meant. If the 140 additional carriages were guaranteed we may be calling it the '256' order. The latest batches are of course rather different in their ways.

Because dual voltage units tend to have a different sub class, ie 375/6, 350/1, 377/2. Having same sub class can lead to confusion so its a simple solution.

The 377/8 is same as 377/7 but with one less carriage. Don't forget the 350/1 were 100mph units initially as the 350/2 subclass isn't being cleared for the higher running speeds.

Livery is expected to be the TSGN livery.

Fair enough I suppose. Although I've also wondered why /7 is not numbered 727-734 as the build is otherwise identical? I should stop dabbling in TOPs!

TSGN, just checking, is that the 'NX' livery as demonstrated on the latest 700 stock impressions? Is that also what FCC are repainting their 365s into over the C6X refurbishment?
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It's more likely that the 110 is specified for AC running

Yes, because any DC power system could not supply the demand of several trains regularly running in service at 110mph. Much energy is wasted through friction as heat - 25% wastage I recall?