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378 extra coach
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You might find the attached interesting...:
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/lo-platform-extensions.pdf
It doesn't seem to mention extensions on the GOBLIN.
378201 has had it's 5th coach in for a while now, but has only been testing and will still do testing at Derby for a while.
378135 came back from Derby this Tuesday (28th) with its 5th coach in. It's due for testing on the ELL imminently and then should enter service as a 5 coach train from the first week of November.
The rest will be lengthened at New Cross Gate, I believe at a rate of one a week.
Edit: the 5th coach for 378136 is moving down as I type.
378135 came back from Derby this Tuesday (28th) with its 5th coach in. It's due for testing on the ELL imminently and then should enter service as a 5 coach train from the first week of November.
The rest will be lengthened at New Cross Gate, I believe at a rate of one a week.
Edit: the 5th coach for 378136 is moving down as I type.
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So, when will LO be needing six coach trains? 
So, when will LO be needing six coach trains?
Based on peak loading sooner than you think I would suggest
It does say "On the Gospel Oak to Barking route, the Governments commitment to electrify the line will allow for the introduction of longer
trains at a later date."
To me that implies that the current stock stays until electrification is completed. I thought EMUs for GOBLIN were included in LO's ITT seeking new stock for the part of East Anglia it had taken over?
Minstral25
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So, when will LO be needing six coach trains?
About 6 months to a year ago judging by loadings on West London Line - the 5 will help but not remove the problems along this stretch of track
HSTEd
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IIRC Because of the 378s Electrostar heritage the units will not extend beyond 5 coaches as the TMS won't handle it.
It's no different on at least parts of the North London line, particularly westbound towards Highbury and Islington in morning peak and away from there in the evening peak....
Build some new driving cars and run them as 2 x 3 cars?
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87015
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378135 as five cars enters passenger service on Thursday, 1100ish Surrey Quays to Dalston then VIP only for rest of day...
tbtc
Veteran Member
Hmm, if we need longer trains on London Overground (and, my off-peak experience suggests that we probably do - not sampled the full "peak" crush, don't really want to, given how busy it is during the middle of the day)...
...and that means alternative trains are required (i.e. ones capable of being six/seven coaches)...
...then that sets up the "Where Should The 378s Be Cascaded To" thread.
Which makes me wonder, can "normal" seats be put into 378s, or does the design (e.g. where the electrics are) mean that they'll have to keep their longnutidal seating?
(Wolfie's sensible suggestion about running them as 2x3 coach notwithstanding)
This seems to be one of those things that's entered folk mythology without a good credible source.
On "sorry I don't have a source" apparently TfL are already considering the 6 car upgrade. Trickiest bit is East London line "core".
theblackwatch
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Presumably by rail?
I wouldn't, given the way the passenger numbers have grown like topsy thus far, hold your breath on that!
Merseyrail? Might still need more driving cars though.....
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Minstral25
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Perhaps the NLL/WLL should be converted to 6 now and add the ELL when the core issues (which I'm guessing are major rebuilds) are sorted out
Indeed, 7X01 to Wembley this lunchtime, then should continue to New Cross Gate later tonight.
I would suggest the ELL would be doable with more use of SDO. Extending the ELL core stations is likely to be far from easy as at least some of them are listed structures (in whole or part) as I understand it.....
Ooops sorry, didn't realise the link had 2 pages.
Are we then looking at a new generation that will become the replacement for 313/304/508 stock? Could be the long-term answer to Merseyrail and other similar schemes, e.g. Hyde/Glossop, future Birmingham Cross City electrification, etc. where metro passenger flows are encountered without the very high volumes on full length trains like 345s and 700s.
I'm unsure. I would be surprised if the new EMUs for LO didn't come out looking very similar internally to the 378s (that is if they aren't 378s!) despite the howls that might bring from some ex-Anglia passengers....
An alternative would, I suppose, be some LO stock redeployment. I have in mind 378s being used on NLL, ELL, WLL and GOBLIN and the new stock (if if was internally different and arguably better suited to longer journeys) on Watford-Euston and ex-Anglia services.
No worries, we've all done it!
Ha Ha I know. Stayed at me mates last night to watch the football so came from norwood junction on it just after 7. Stood crushed from about honor oak park if not before.
He did say change at Sydenham too get the one after from Crystal Palace which is more lightly loaded but was running late so didnt.
Class377/5
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Its not a myth. It was stated in an interview with someone from TfL/LO in Modern Railways awhile back.
I believe adding a sixth was stated to be more difficult than just adding an extra carriage as the software has to be written from the ground up and require longer approval period than going from four to five cars.
Basically its a money issue.
Ah, OK. Still doable. After al, sooner or later most things are "money issues". Building a replacement Thames Tunnel with space for OHL and 200m long platforms at the stations could be cast as a "money issue". A rather more expensive one, of course.
(bonus feature: would allow the old tunnel to be returned to non-railway use- pedestrians down one bore, cycles down the other?)
(bonus feature: would allow the old tunnel to be returned to non-railway use- pedestrians down one bore, cycles down the other?)
Nym
Established Member
So, when will LO be needing six coach trains?
If they'd have made their minds up earlier there are ways around the max 5 car software of the electrostars by having to 'half unit centre cars' to get round the issue.
However, since the 5th car is now built / being built, they are stuck with being 5 car, unless they significantly re work the 5th car to a similar standard as the 6th car.
Could the class 376's software also be written from the ground, to make such a project more economical? They are closely related electrostar brothers aren't they? They are 5 car and really could do with being 6 to make use of all the newly extended platforms 12 car platforms across southeastern metro.
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Class377/5
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There is still risk and there some differences between the two classes that means both would need a unique software tailored to them. Not to mention dealing with two 'TOCs' would make the contract more complex with both having to agree on everything increasing risk and therefore cost.
I've noticed all the 378s passing the 4 car stops and stopping at the 5 car stop markers northbound at Sydenham, making a whole load of people run up the platform. Judging from how slowly the drivers arrive it seems like they aren't very confident in stopping.
I also agree the 378s should be moved on to the Goblin from the Watford DC. The DC should have 7-8 car trains with 2+2 seating.
I also agree the 378s should be moved on to the Goblin from the Watford DC. The DC should have 7-8 car trains with 2+2 seating.
It's one of the greatest increases in passenger demand I can recall. From no passenger service at all through Hackney from 1939 to the mid-1980s, I can recall the half-hourly 2-car Cravens unit that started then, mostly empty. Recently, I had to make several trips between Homerton and Stratford, midday and early afternoon, not in the high peak. Never was the train anything other than crowded and twice it was crush-loaded like the Jubilee Line in the peaks.
You also appreciate, when using the line at those times, the extent to which it is used by freight, and that these are trains of considerable length. I never thought there was so much left on rail so close to inner London. I wonder if it actually carries more tons per day than at it's peak, a couple of generations ago, of being the key route into the London docks.
You also appreciate, when using the line at those times, the extent to which it is used by freight, and that these are trains of considerable length. I never thought there was so much left on rail so close to inner London. I wonder if it actually carries more tons per day than at it's peak, a couple of generations ago, of being the key route into the London docks.
Technically that's what they are ordering stock for. I assume TfL and LOROL can, if they agree, use the rolling stock fleet in whatever manner they feel to be most beneficial.
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