3tph on North Downs Line

[Siemens Staines]

I thought that it was my maths that was dodgy

I think in answer to JonathanH original maths question, the limited 3tph that does exist SX today is achieved by using the Basinsgtoke(peaks) and Bourne End(peaks) units for a North Downs trip in the middle of the day (1136 & 1336). In the peaks the 0734 and 1736 turn round at Guildford/Shalford so are only 3tph between Reading and Guildford. I presume when the full 3tph 769 service starts, the SX service will look similar to the current SO service?

 

[73128]

It seems that the new timetable provides a regular almost Clockface half hourly fast service between Guildford, Dorking, Reigate and Redhill. That is definitely a very good thing and will be appreciated by local users. I suspect from travelling on the route there are many more local users than Reading to Gatwick passengers so this is a real benefit to encourage using public transport.

The slight disappointment is that the hourly local service doesn't call all stations between Guildford and Redhill to encourage more local usage. The uninspiring irregular calls should be fixed with this timetable although I guess patronage may be the reason its not happening, plus short turnaround at Redhill.

Attracting more Dorking passengers to take the train into Guildford or Redhill for schooling or shopping etc. must be a good thing. Driving into Guildford in particular is neither quick nor easy (or cheap)

View attachment 84715
This is how the fast train looks in the new December timetable looks (right) compared to currently (left).

Reading-Wokingham: 1/2 min slower
Guildford-Dorking: 1 min slower
Dorking-Reigate: 1/2 min slower
Reigate-Redhill: 1 min slower
Overall: 3 min slower

Redhill-Reigate: 1/2 min slower
Dorking-Guildford: 1.5 min slower
Guildford-Wokingham: 1/2 min faster
Wokingham-Reading: 1/2 min slower
Overall: 2 min slower

I was thinking this would correlate with the diesel-only sections of the line as the class 769 is slower on diesel, but it seems across the board.

Also, the 3tph doesn't seem have been extended to the full day Mon-Fri, unless it's not loaded yet?

I understood that electric running will not be permitted as the power supply apparently isn't up to it (still). Given that SWR have up to 4 long emus an hour as far as Wokingham one might have expected that that stretch at least could.

 

[infobleep]

Has the concept been proven yet? Is the demand likely to sustain it?

There are quite a few 'runs as required' trains shown which presumably can't run until some 769s are increasing the fleet size. Some retiming in the morning peak as well, presumably to put right complaints about key arrival times.

What were the complaints?

I see there is an 18:13 Guildford to Redhill service which is down as run as required. It stops at all stations except Shalford.

 

[tornado]

I understood that electric running will not be permitted as the power supply apparently isn't up to it (still). Given that SWR have up to 4 long emus an hour as far as Wokingham one might have expected that that stretch at least could.

I guess that means there is hope of faster services once the 769 can run on electric for the 3rd rail stretches. At the moment it seems a bit strange to replace a diesel with a slower diesel. Although if they are more comfortable and quieter than the Turbos perhaps that will make up for it.

 

[swt_passenger]

I understood that electric running will not be permitted as the power supply apparently isn't up to it (still). Given that SWR have up to 4 long emus an hour as far as Wokingham one might have expected that that stretch at least could.

That doesn’t necessarily follow, the CP5 enhancements to power supplies on the Reading route would only have been what was deemed necessary for 4 tph of 10 car trains, NR hardly ever install power upgrades with significant spare capacity...

 

[Deepgreen]

Attracting more Dorking passengers to take the train into Guildford or Redhill for schooling or shopping etc. must be a good thing. Driving into Guildford in particular is neither quick nor easy (or cheap)


I understood that electric running will not be permitted as the power supply apparently isn't up to it (still). Given that SWR have up to 4 long emus an hour as far as Wokingham one might have expected that that stretch at least could.

The continuing inability/unwillingness to provide for/allow more electric trains to operate on the route is very poor and highlights the disjointed approach to the issue - the trains (769s) have been promulgated for many years and are late anyway, only to find that there STILL isn't the supply capacity (supposedly) to run them. As each train will be only four cars and there will only be a relatively few of them, I find it quite hard to believe that they will exhaust the supply. We end up with the prospect of expensive conversions running round with the only benefit being an extra coach per unit, but running slower! I'm afraid it smacks of farce.

What were the complaints?

I see there is an 18:13 Guildford to Redhill service which is down as run as required. It stops at all stations except Shalford.

I've looked at the GWR web site and can't see any December 2020 timetables there - are they available elsewhere? RTT has a Q path after 14 December from Reading to Redhill leaving Guildford at 1813, but it IS shown calling at Shalford. It's also shown as a diesel locomotive with a trailing load of 769 tonnes and timed for 100mph so I suspect some levity is at work at RTT towers!

Realtime Trains - 1O80 1736 Reading to Redhill

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

It’s a mix of the two.

The stopping service is constrained at Guildford in both directions by the fast overtaking, so it cannot depart earlier or arrive back later. The fasts are constrained by conflicting paths with other operators at the ends of the route (so Reading <> Wokingham and Redhill <> Gatwick)

With the timeframe available, it can just about get to Redhill and back stopping at around half the stations on the way. Add in any more stops, and you won’t be arriving at Redhill in time to depart back on time.

The only way you might get the extra stops in would be if another unit and extra crew could be found, you could run the stopper all stations, and have a 50+ minute turnaround in the sidings at Redhill. But I’m not sure if the traffic justifies that.

One potential solution is to send it through to Tonbridge. Then history will have turned full circle!

 

[JonathanH]

One potential solution is to send it through to Tonbridge. Then history will have turned full circle!

Not really, Tonbridge stopping is about 30 minutes from Redhill - that doesn't help alleviate a 50 minute turn round problem.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not really, Tonbridge stopping is about 30 minutes from Redhill - that doesn't help alleviate a 50 minute turn round problem.

I'm aware of that. Running to Tonbridge would require two extra units. The current off peak Redhill to Tonbridge shuttle requires two units with 25/30 minute turn rounds at each end. A 50 minute turn round in platform 1 at Tonbridge does not, at first glance, seem to cause many problems. If it does, shunt to the sidings. And yes I'm aware that running to Tonbridge requires route clearance, train crew training etc. and it's probably not worth the hassle.

 

[tornado]

We end up with the prospect of expensive conversions running round with the only benefit being an extra coach per unit, but running slower! I'm afraid it smacks of farce.

Sums up my thoughts entirely. Even the USB ports are not new, because the Turbos have them!

 

[Minstral25]

I'm aware of that. Running to Tonbridge would require two extra units. The current off peak Redhill to Tonbridge shuttle requires two units with 25/30 minute turn rounds at each end. A 50 minute turn round in platform 1 at Tonbridge does not, at first glance, seem to cause many problems. If it does, shunt to the sidings. And yes I'm aware that running to Tonbridge requires route clearance, train crew training etc. and it's probably not worth the hassle.

It would probably release the three 377/3's used which could end up replacing some 455's in London, so could be a useful idea. Maybe even split the local part of route at Guildford to avoid the wait there, running Woking to Tonbridge and Guildford to Reading. Giving new journey opportunities, especially as County Hall for Surrey is being moved to Reigate shortly which might increase demand for a cross Surrey service.

Deepgreen: We end up with the prospect of expensive conversions running round with the only benefit being an extra coach per unit, but running slower! I'm afraid it smacks of farce.

Sums up my thoughts entirely. Even the USB ports are not new, because the Turbos have them!

It's not actually one extra carriage as the Turbo's are 23 ft and 769's 20 ft so probably around half a carriage extra.

 

[FenMan]

It would probably release the three 377/3's used which could end up replacing some 455's in London, so could be a useful idea. Maybe even split the local part of route at Guildford to avoid the wait there, running Woking to Tonbridge and Guildford to Reading. Giving new journey opportunities, especially as County Hall for Surrey is being moved to Reigate shortly which might increase demand for a cross Surrey service.

It's not actually one extra carriage as the Turbo's are 23 ft and 769's 20 ft so probably around half a carriage extra.

Aren't the number of seats in a 769 v a 165 virtually the same? I believe both are 260 or so.

 

[The Ham]

Aren't the number of seats in a 769 v a 165 virtually the same? I believe both are 260 or so.

Yes, however that's not so much of a problem in that during the day seating is fine but at peak times having an extra 2 sets of doors would mean faster loading/unloading and more standing space. Given the fairly short distances most people travel is not going to show up on the PIXC tables, even though some services are rammed.

As such capacity when it's needed, but not too much (especially with the 3rd service providing more capacity as well) hopefully to the extent that there infrastructure upgrades (shorter signal spacing and longer platforms) can then be justified to improve capacity before the next change in rolling stock (say within 10 years).

 

[gallafent]

Sums up my thoughts entirely. Even the USB ports are not new, because the Turbos have them!

This project is all about “the greater good” though, right? GWR's total capacity is being increased by the entirety of the carriages / seats being added by the 769s, since the 16xs are all being retained and redeployed to strengthen other routes (and/or cascade the stock on those routes to yet other routes, etc.)

Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.

Others have mentioned the improved to dwell times which should result from faster load/unload facilitated by 33% more doors, and of course there's the massively improved comfort when running from 3rd rail (or OHLE), the passenger environment will be far quieter and more tranquil, definitely an improvement over the cacophony of a turbo! … and then there's the ecological improvement of electric running, and the fact we're upcycling old trains (energy cost of making new ones far far higher), … and as we do infill electrification we get improved emissions “for free” … etc. …

All in all it seems like a really good thing, … if only it had been delivered a bit more rapidly!

 

[Minstral25]

Yes, however that's not so much of a problem in that during the day seating is fine but at peak times having an extra 2 sets of doors would mean faster loading/unloading and more standing space. Given the fairly short distances most people travel is not going to show up on the PIXC tables, even though some services are rammed.

I've never been on a North Downs service that has been rammed, where do they get that busy to be rammed? Assume its a couple of specific points and times.

Others have mentioned the improved to dwell times which should result from faster load/unload facilitated by 33% more doors, and of course there's the massively improved comfort when running from 3rd rail (or OHLE), the passenger environment will be far quieter and more tranquil, definitely an improvement over the cacophony of a turbo! … and then there's the ecological improvement of electric running, and the fact we're upcycling old trains (energy cost of making new ones far far higher), … and as we do infill electrification we get improved emissions “for free” … etc. …

All in all it seems like a really good thing, … if only it had been delivered a bit more rapidly!

Have you ever been in a 319 (now 769). My recollection of 319's running on 3rd Rail are "Noisy as Hell" - hopefully they might have fixed some of the gaps in the doors and windows during refurb but I am not optimistic. You could never hear yourself talk in a 319 going for it and the wind through the coach on a cold morning. Much prefer a Turbo any day as better built but appreciate why this change is being done.

 

[The Ham]

I've never been on a North Downs service that has been rammed, where do they get that busy to be rammed? Assume its a couple of specific points and times.





Have you ever been in a 319 (now 769). My recollection of 319's running on 3rd Rail are "Noisy as Hell" - hopefully they might have fixed some of the gaps in the doors and windows during refurb but I am not optimistic. You could never hear yourself talk in a 319 going for it and the wind through the coach on a cold morning. Much prefer a Turbo any day as better built but appreciate why this change is being done.

There are specific services, chiefly those arriving to Farnborough North for school/college start time and departing Guildford in the PM peak.

 

[DelW]

Others have mentioned the improved to dwell times which should result from faster load/unload facilitated by 33% more doors, and of course there's the massively improved comfort when running from 3rd rail (or OHLE), the passenger environment will be far quieter and more tranquil, definitely an improvement over the cacophony of a turbo! … and then there's the ecological improvement of electric running, and the fact we're upcycling old trains (energy cost of making new ones far far higher), … and as we do infill electrification we get improved emissions “for free” … etc. …

All in all it seems like a really good thing, … if only it had been delivered a bit more rapidly!

Except that AIUI, there will be little or no "electric running" for the foreseeable future - Reading to Wokingham at best. 769s can't use 3rd rail from Aldershot South junction to Shalford Junction as they can't change mode on the move, and as frequently stated, the power supplies east of Reigate can't handle any additional electric services.

THE 769s will be effectively demus on the North Downs line.

I've never been on a North Downs service that has been rammed, where do they get that busy to be rammed?

Pre-Covid, I've been on peak time departures from Reading that were full and standing to somewhere like Sandhurst. I presume the same applied to Reading bound trains in the morning, but I've never needed to use those.

 

[Minstral25]

There are specific services, chiefly those arriving to Farnborough North for school/college start time and departing Guildford in the PM peak.

Pre-Covid, I've been on peak time departures from Reading that were full and standing to somewhere like Sandhurst. I presume the same applied to Reading bound trains in the morning, but I've never needed to use those.

Thanks - I'm on other half of line and rarely use Guildford to Reading section so explains why I don't see even close to a full train other than odd morning peaks Reigate to Redhill when Southern cancel.

 

[FenMan]

Pre-Covid, I've been on peak time departures from Reading that were full and standing to somewhere like Sandhurst. I presume the same applied to Reading bound trains in the morning, but I've never needed to use those.

The Reading end of the line is very busy during the weekday peaks in normal times. That said, the worst crushes I've experienced on NDL services are high season Gatwicks at weekends, particularly if the weather is fine.

 

[Deepgreen]

I've never been on a North Downs service that has been rammed, where do they get that busy to be rammed? Assume its a couple of specific points and times.

In my commuting days there were several peak trains that were very crowded between Redhill and Dorking, and especially so to Reigate.

This project is all about “the greater good” though, right? GWR's total capacity is being increased by the entirety of the carriages / seats being added by the 769s, since the 16xs are all being retained and redeployed to strengthen other routes (and/or cascade the stock on those routes to yet other routes, etc.)



Others have mentioned the improved to dwell times which should result from faster load/unload facilitated by 33% more doors, and of course there's the massively improved comfort when running from 3rd rail (or OHLE), the passenger environment will be far quieter and more tranquil, definitely an improvement over the cacophony of a turbo! … and then there's the ecological improvement of electric running, and the fact we're upcycling old trains (energy cost of making new ones far far higher), … and as we do infill electrification we get improved emissions “for free” … etc. …

All in all it seems like a really good thing, … if only it had been delivered a bit more rapidly!

Dwell times may improve but running times will worsen. As far as I can tell from this thread, there will be no third rail electric running for the foreseeable future (i.e. diesel all the way) and there is no OHLE on the NDL. Judging by progress to date and the economic depression that C19 will inflict for years/decades to come, by the time the electric upgrades arrive, the 769s will probably be scrapped.

 

[JN114]

Per post 983, they're low, single figure minute increases end to end along the route, 3 minutes eastbound and 2½ minutes westbound. I'd take that for improved capacity every day of the week. And weekends.

 

[Steve Bray]

In the December timetable, will the current weekday 1749 RDG-GTW call at Shalford?

For commuters returning to Shalford from Waterloo(obvioulsy changing at Guildford), this stop would be welcomed. There are a number of extra minutes allowed between Dorking and Reigate, so a Shalford stop could be added without extending the overall journey time

 

[JonathanH]

In the December timetable, will the current weekday 1749 RDG-GTW call at Shalford?

For commuters returning to Shalford from Waterloo(obvioulsy changing at Guildford), this stop would be welcomed. There are a number of extra minutes allowed between Dorking and Reigate, so a Shalford stop could be added without extending the overall journey time

It looks to me as if a train is missing from the timetable currently on RTT at 1720 from Reading to Redhill which combines the stopping pattern of the trains shown as 2O48 west of Guildford and 1O80 east of Guildford. It doesn't appear obvious that the 1750 from Reading to Gatwick would gain a Shalford stop. 1855 Dorking Deepdene for 1903 Reigate appears to be the normal timing - the train has to hit 1904 from Reigate for the standard pattern to Gatwick.

 

[Deepgreen]

Today, there are no electric trains running owing to "an inspection of the track" between Reigate and Redhill. NRE says there are no Southern trains and advises passengers to use buses instead. Not a word about the GW trains, which are still running because it's only the current that's off, not the line that's closed!

Per post 983, they're low, single figure minute increases end to end along the route, 3 minutes eastbound and 2½ minutes westbound. I'd take that for improved capacity every day of the week. And weekends.

Yes, obviously, but the whole bi-mode element has been a waste of time and money if they can't be used as such (and it dates from well before C19 hit). Individual trains' capacity is hardly any greater, given the shorter coaches, and no doubt the extra fasts will be sacrificed at the first hint of operating problems, giving almost identical capacity and thus remaining all-diesel, but slightly slower. I hope I'm wrong because it's all so depressing!

 

[tornado]

The extra fast service really does make a difference for travelling between large population centres. A good example is Reading to East Croydon. Try routing this when the 3tph isn't running and it will either send you on a very slow SWT stopper and then change at Clapham Junction, or to Paddington and then a tube to Victoria/Farringdon.

When you route on a Saturday you get a smooth journey via Redhill on the new GWR fast which is quicker end-to-end than either of the above, and doesn't involve going backwards geographically!

 

[infobleep]

Today, there are no electric trains running owing to "an inspection of the track" between Reigate and Redhill. NRE says there are no Southern trains and advises passengers to use buses instead. Not a word about the GW trains, which are still running because it's only the current that's off, not the line that's closed!

Interestingly they were terminating the trains at Redhill, with 1 at Reigate, owing to them being 30 minutes late. I don't know when the power was switched off and if any trains made it to Gatwick Airport.

If we get 2 trains an hour to Gatwick, would they still terminate trains short at Redhill, during disruption or could they run a train to Gatwick Airport 30 minutes late and terminate it short at Guildford, on it's return journey, to get it back in it's path. Of course one train an hour would still terminate at Redhill.

I've not checked the timings for this possibility and I'm going on fast trains running every 30 minutes. Obviously it's not quite like that.

This evening I just missed a fast train, due to my own fault, and thus decided to get the next slow. It leaves 21 minutes later than the fast train and the connecting train will get me into Gatwick Airport just 11 minutes before the next fast one from Guildford. Admittedly the gap between fast service is 52 minutes.

Having a fast train to Gatwick might just making me 30 minutes later than 51.

 

[JonathanH]

If we get 2 trains an hour to Gatwick, would they still terminate trains short at Redhill, during disruption or could they run a train to Gatwick Airport 30 minutes late and terminate it short at Guildford, on it's return journey, to get it back in it's path. Of course one train an hour would still terminate at Redhill.

Previous postings in this thread indicate that a late running Gatwick train would would still turn at Redhill in delays so as not to disrupt the Thameslink timetable, not to miss the path at Guildford and get the traincrew back to Reading on time. Terminating short at Guildford from the east doesn't make any operational sense unless the line to Reading is blocked.

Interestingly they were terminating the trains at Redhill, with 1 at Reigate, owing to them being 30 minutes late. I don't know when the power was switched off and if any trains made it to Gatwick Airport

Three trains terminated at Redhill instead of Gatwick today.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[infobleep]

Previous postings in this thread indicate that a late running Gatwick train would would still turn at Redhill in delays so as not to disrupt the Thameslink timetable, not to miss the path at Guildford and get the traincrew back to Reading on time. Terminating short at Guildford from the east doesn't make any operational sense unless the line to Reading is blocked.



Three trains terminated at Redhill instead of Gatwick today.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

But surely if the train is running so late that it ends up running in the path of the train that should run 30 minutes later, it shouldn't disrupt the Thameslink, unless that too disrupted.

If Thameslink trains were disrupted would they also terminate the NDR trains incase they further delay the late running Thameslink trains. I don't ever remember that happening so I'm guessing the answer is no.

So it looks like the new service will be good save when there is disruption and you get stuck at Redhill. Hopefully during such disruption, one wouldn't be stuck at Redhill for too long waiting for a connection.

 

[gallafent]

I've never been on a North Downs service that has been rammed, where do they get that busy to be rammed? Assume its a couple of specific points and times.

It's been years since I used the line regularly or frequently, but back then it was often pretty full. Usually not standing-room-only, but even that was relatively frequent …

Have you ever been in a 319 (now 769). My recollection of 319's running on 3rd Rail are "Noisy as Hell" - hopefully they might have fixed some of the gaps in the doors and windows during refurb but I am not optimistic. You could never hear yourself talk in a 319 going for it and the wind through the coach on a cold morning. Much prefer a Turbo any day as better built but appreciate why this change is being done.

Sure, a 319 with windows open at 100mph is pretty noisy, I won't disagree with that! … but so is a 165 with the windows open at 90mph — and with the windows closed, the noisy diesel in the latter makes it a lot less pleasant than a 319 (with the windows closed!) to my sensibilities. Doors rattling when passing things is definitely more of a problem with the 319s (etc.), it would certainly have been nice if instead of 769s they'd made 815s (since the arithmetic seems to be “add 450”! from 365s, … or better still, something with air cooling. Still, I think that doesn't negate the overall capacity improvements!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Except that AIUI, there will be little or no "electric running" for the foreseeable future - Reading to Wokingham at best. 769s can't use 3rd rail from Aldershot South junction to Shalford Junction as they can't change mode on the move, and as frequently stated, the power supplies east of Reigate can't handle any additional electric services.

THE 769s will be effectively demus on the North Downs line.

Redhill to Reigate is the weak section limited to 4 cars and needs to be reinforced if the Thameslink service is going to be diverted. Redhill to Gatwick is 12 car conductor rail index with power system reinforced both with additional substations and National Grid capacity over the last 10 years so a couple of extra 4 cars aint going to break the system. Wokingham to Reading maybe closer to capacity due to grid capacity rather than lineside traction substation capacity but this is about NR being tasked to make an assessment but no doubt GWR dont want to pay for the studies and NR dont do anything for nothing.