4920 Dumbleton Hall going to Japan?

[The_Van]

Pretty amazing that in the age of the instant photo/video it's managed to get from Carnforth to Southampton without being spotted...

 

[yorksrob]

Will Japan be getting a replica kings cross ?

Will Japan be getting a replica kings cross ?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Will Japan be getting a replica kings cross ?

Will Japan be getting a replica kings cross ?

Almost certainly, fairly easy to create a 'film set' replica. As an example the whole outdoor set of Emmerdale was completed in 21 days.

 

[simonw]

Is it really a big issue that this loco has been exported to Japan? There are other surviving members of its class in the UK, so it’s not as if it were the last example of a class being exported.

It‘s worth remembering that we do have a Japanese train on display in the UK too. We don’t hear people from Japan calling for the NRM’s Shinkansen carriage to be repatriated back to Japan, so why should there be any talk of bringing this loco back from Japan in the future?

I believe the Japanese train was gifted to the NRM.

 

[yorksrob]

Almost certainly, fairly easy to create a 'film set' replica. As an example the whole outdoor set of Emmerdale was completed in 21 days.

I do like the idea of being able to wander into a Kings Cross on the other side of the globe and go "Wot, no InterCity 125's"

Mind you, you can do that at the real Kings Cross nowadays

 

[eldomtom2]

If it was, would the export deferral scheme be applicable to a steam loco? Coincidentally this was the subject of a review about a year ago https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-save-important-cultural-items-for-the-public

Steam locos would presumably fall under "other items", which need to meet a £65,000 threshold of value before needing an export license.

 

[terry staines]

In terms of national preservation 4920 is not important but it should be born in mind that it is the oldest surviving Hall. What concerns me are the unanswered questions. Were the society aware that WCR had sold the loco to Warner Bros for a theme park in Japan and what consultation took place with the membership regarding the loco's sale and eventual destination (it seems the society had no idea the loco had been sold on for export). It also poses the question that when the scheme was launched to save the loco back in the seventies it was a general public appeal to donate. What about the members of the general public who donated towards the appeal. it would seem there has been almost zero consultation with stakeholders before the sale which is a slap in the face. As for the general consensus that the sale was to ensure a viable working future for the loco, well that went out the window. The chances of 4920 ever returning to the UK would seem to be almost zero.

 

[MarkyT]

How long before someone gets the crayons to start planning for it to feature in a plandampf event over the Shinkansen network?

It's not only the new build Shinkansen routes that are standard gauge in Japan. There are also a fair number of lower-speed lines in the suburban and regional category using 1435mm, as well as the Mini-Shinkansen gauge converted branches! Nonetheless, 83% of route mileage is Cape Gauge.

 

[pieguyrob]

The chances of 4920 ever returning to the UK would seem to be almost zero.

Why? The other GWR kettle came back from Australia.

 

[bluenoxid]

Two streamlined locomotives came back from North America for two years as part of the anniversary of the speed record and the Flying Scotsman was also repatriated.

 

[pieguyrob]

A class 04, came back from Italy.

 

[Harvester]

Two streamlined locomotives came back from North America for two years as part of the anniversary of the speed record and the Flying Scotsman was also repatriated.

And two ex Southern locos M7 30053, and Schools 30926 came back from the USA.

 

[the sniper]

Hopefully we can trade them a Class 800 for it in a few years...

 

[D6968]

In terms of national preservation 4920 is not important but it should be born in mind that it is the oldest surviving Hall. What concerns me are the unanswered questions. Were the society aware that WCR had sold the loco to Warner Bros for a theme park in Japan and what consultation took place with the membership regarding the loco's sale and eventual destination (it seems the society had no idea the loco had been sold on for export). It also poses the question that when the scheme was launched to save the loco back in the seventies it was a general public appeal to donate. What about the members of the general public who donated towards the appeal. it would seem there has been almost zero consultation with stakeholders before the sale which is a slap in the face. As for the general consensus that the sale was to ensure a viable working future for the loco, well that went out the window. The chances of 4920 ever returning to the UK would seem to be almost zero.

There’s a similar question being asked on Nat Pres, but the allegations are that certain members of its former owning group knew what was going to happen to it, but kept other members in the dark as they thought the sale might be vetoed, how true all this is I wouldn’t know but the plot thickens as they say.

 

[geoffk]

And two ex Southern locos M7 30053, and Schools 30926 came back from the USA.

also the 0-4-4 tank Dunrobin was repatriated from Canada to Beamish (2011).

 

[alexl92]

There’s a similar question being asked on Nat Pres, but the allegations are that certain members of its former owning group knew what was going to happen to it, but kept other members in the dark as they thought the sale might be vetoed, how true all this is I wouldn’t know but the plot thickens as they say.

If that is true, surely it could lead to legal action?

 

[Falcon1200]

Surely when an object is sold the previous owners can have no further claim on or power over it ?

 

[Speed43125]

Surely when an object is sold the previous owners can have no further claim on or power over it ?

One could perhaps launch legal action over the concealing of the buyer though

 

[Falcon1200]

One could perhaps launch legal action over the concealing of the buyer though

Fair point, but in this case has the buyer not resold the loco on to a third party ?

 

[alexl92]

But if the society were persuaded to agree to sell on the understanding that it was being sold to WCRC (who would likely restore it and run it), when certain key figures knew full well it was being bought by WCRC purely to be sold or hired onto WB for export, society members could rightfully argue that they were deliberately misled and therefore led to take a decision they wouldn’t otherwise have taken, if that makes sense?

 

[Brush 4]

Castle 4079 came back home from Australia. I'm not aware of any GWR kettles ever being there. I don't think Australians drink tea........

 

[Falcon1200]

But if the society were persuaded to agree to sell on the understanding that it was being sold to WCRC (who would likely restore it and run it), when certain key figures knew full well it was being bought by WCRC purely to be sold or hired onto WB for export, society members could rightfully argue that they were deliberately misled and therefore led to take a decision they wouldn’t otherwise have taken, if that makes sense?

Again, that is a good point, but I'm not sure what legal redress they could have once they had the money and the loco was no longer theirs ?

 

[John Luxton]

Again, that is a good point, but I'm not sure what legal redress they could have once they had the money and the loco was no longer theirs ?

If a group was misled into making a sale unaware that the third party had a buyer offering significantly more for an onward sale would that not be considered obtaining goods by deception?

Very similar to someone trading shares on the basis of inside information?

Of course this is all speculation and do we know if the locomotive has actually been sold?

In the last few days I saw a post somewhere claiming it had only been leased to WB.

Perhaps if a statement is made by the parties involved especially if there is nothing to hide that might clear the murky waters?

 

[Worf]

I doubt whether Smith will be bothered about a few people wringing their hands over this.

 

[alexl92]

Hmmm...
If indeed it's been leased to WB by WCRC rather than bought, then this could make a lot of sense. Clearly there's an existing relationship between David Smith & Warner Bros, as Olton Hall and two BR MK1s are on loan to WB Studios at Watford on display in the KGX set. So maybe they approached him to get a loco for them?
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(The below is conjecture; please do not quote me as fact)
So potentially, David Smith buys the loco for a reported £300k, is presumably paid a fee by WB to cosmetically restore it as 5972 Hogwarts Castle (anyone know what a full repaint costs these days?) and is also paid probably an annual fee for the hire of the loco. Then it's shipped to Japan for display in a museum, where it will be protected on display indoors. I would guess that the contract between Smith and WB has a set end date (which I would imagine could be extended as required), at which point WB are required to ship the loco back to the UK at their own cost, in the same condition as it left these shores.

Then, at some stage in the next, say, 20 years, WB finish with the loco and ship it back to the UK, by which time presumably the owner has recouped his outlay on the engine and made a decent profit and can either restore it and run it to earn more money, place it on static display or sell it on. You can see why Smith might buy into that.
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Another rumour online is that the locos has been stripped of a load of parts to save 50 Tonnes of weight, with some parts going to other Halls which are under restoration. So it'd need a huge amount of work if and when it is eventually returned to steam.

I think though the most important thing is - were the DHPS members misled about its future? Were they told that it was being sold with a view to being returned to steam in the UK?

 

[Alanko]

I have no problems about the loco going to Japan. My one concern is that at some time in the future, due to a fall in business or a change in direction, the loco will become surplus to requirements and be unceremoniously disposed of.

I gather it hasn't moved under its own steam since 1999. 'Unceremoniously disposed of' isn't that much different to languishing on the scrap line at heritage railways various really.

 

[alexl92]

I gather it hasn't moved under its own steam since 1999. 'Unceremoniously disposed of' isn't that much different to languishing on the scrap line at heritage railways various really.

Except that clearly, despite languishing in a siding for the best part of 23 years, it was still feasible to overhaul, albeit at great expense. If it’s ‘unceremoniously disposed of’ in Japan, it will be lost forever.

 

[Alanko]

Except that clearly, despite languishing in a siding for the best part of 23 years, it was still feasible to overhaul, albeit at great expense. If it’s ‘unceremoniously disposed of’ in Japan, it will be lost forever.

It seems rash to assume it will be automatically scrapped in Japan if no longer required.

I agree that it was feasible to overhaul it, but 23 years is a long time for nobody to bother really getting the thumb out.

 

[alexl92]

It seems rash to assume it will be automatically scrapped in Japan if no longer required.

I agree that it was feasible to overhaul it, but 23 years is a long time for nobody to bother really getting the thumb out.

I don't think anyone is automatically assuming it will be scrapped if no longer required. I think some people are just concerned that this might be a possibility if WB have bought it outright and without a contractual agreement to return it when they're finished with it.

I know there are limited resources to restore locomotives, they can't all run and once and this clearly isn't the only preserved Hall, but I think we're sometimes guilty of forgetting that these are genuine historic artefacts. 4920 was build in March 1929; before the Wall Street Crash, during the Art Deco era. It's a genuine piece of 1920s British railway engineering, it is irreplacable (yes, you could new build but it wouldn't be a genuine 1920s Collett Hall) and it would be a crying shame if anything were to happen to it. And this comes from someone for whom all GWR locos look the same!

 

[D6968]

It seems rash to assume it will be automatically scrapped in Japan if no longer required.

I agree that it was feasible to overhaul it, but 23 years is a long time for nobody to bother really getting the thumb out.

I’ve heard approaches were made by interested parties for a restore and run agreement but those high up are alleged to have to been happy about it.