5 x 180s find home?

[pemma]

A Bolton paper has apparently reported that TransPennine Express are currently mulling over getting 'new' 5 carriage trains to run services between Manchester Airport and Glasgow and Edinburgh from December which will allow 'longer' trains to be used on Manchester Victoria to Blackpool.

 

[generalvegitable]

well they could be better suited to some of TPE's routes

 

[gordonthemoron]

what a good idea

 

[caliwag]

Do you have a link for that please?

 

[ukrob]

Don't quite understand the logic. But I might be having a brain fart. How does TPE running 180s on the Scottish route allow Northern to have longer trains on a Manchester Victoria - Blackpool service?

 

[atomicdanny]

Don't quite understand the logic. But I might be having a brain fart. How does TPE running 180s on the Scottish route allow Northern to have longer trains on a Manchester Victoria - Blackpool service?

Stock would be moved from FTPE to Northern? Although FTPE only have 2 types of trains 170s and 185s. So at a guess I would assume that some of FTPEs stock would go to northern (most likely the 170s?) (only a guess though, which will probably be completely wrong knowing me )

 

[ukrob]

My point exactly. It is nonsensical. I suspect the paper have got it wrong. Fancy that - a local rag printing something inaccurate

 

[pemma]

Don't quite understand the logic. But I might be having a brain fart. How does TPE running 180s on the Scottish route allow Northern to have longer trains on a Manchester Victoria - Blackpool service?

I wrote it exactly as it was. There's two possible options:
1. Manchester Victoria should read as Manchester Airport. Although I fail to see why TPE would run Blackpool as 6 car over North TPE.
2. TPE will sub-lease 5 trains to Northern - 5x170s or 5x185s is more capacity than 2x180s and Northern never use all 3 180s at the same time as the spare is a 'rescue' train.

Although if posts on another forum are to be believed the Manchester Victoria to Blackpool service is to be operated by TPE on behalf of Northern.

Do you have a link for that please?

No. It was in a paper left on a train that I read but didn't choose to take with me.

 

[387star]

Sounds great!! solves all the problems and enough ex virgin coaching stock for east coast plus 'unified' fleet for them!

 

[rail-britain]

If FTPE do take on the Class 180 units then they will be doing so at their own cost and risk
That is the way a TOC should be

Transferring the Class 180 units on to Scotland - Manchester makes great operational sense
Join and split is rarely required
In effect this allows strenthening on their services from the west through Manchester to Blackpool

 

[oliverj8]

Would it improve journey times as well as the 185s can only do 100mph where as the 180s can do 125mph?

I know that 125mph is only permitted for tilting trains on the WCML but aren't there some 110mph stretches they can make up time on?

 

[ukrob]

Assuming it is true, I can't see the timings being changed as 185s will have to cover it from time to time no doubt. This is 180s we are talking about

 

[The Planner]

Nothing will get changed in the timetable purely for the reason above, you also need a fair bit of 110 to gain anything over 100.

 

[mumrar]

Nothing will get changed in the timetable purely for the reason above, you also need a fair bit of 110 to gain anything over 100.

Not too much, after 6 min of 110mph you've covered 11 miles versus 10 miles for 100mph. Plus the 180s would accerate better I'd imagine, being capable of 125mph.

 

[ukrob]

Not too much, after 6 min of 110mph you've covered 11 miles versus 10 miles for 100mph. Plus the 180s would accerate better I'd imagine, being capable of 125mph.

I doubt a 180 accelerates faster to 100mph than a 185.

 

[455driver]

. Plus the 180s would accerate better I'd imagine, being capable of 125mph.

No, it would be the complete opposite, as 180s are higher geared they would accelerate slower.
Try running your car at 30mph in 3rd gear then put your foot flat down, it would fly away until it hit the rev limiter or blew up if its old.
Now try it in 4th gear, the acceleration would be gentler but it would reach a much higher speed eventually.
Lower gearing equals quicker acceleration but a lower top speed.

 

[The Planner]

Not too much, after 6 min of 110mph you've covered 11 miles versus 10 miles for 100mph. Plus the 180s would accerate better I'd imagine, being capable of 125mph.

That may be so, but in time a mile at 100 is 36 seconds, 110 is 33 seconds. So to get a minute, you need 20 solid miles of it. Unless that minute sneaks them infront of something else which in turn gains them more minutes via a better path, they probably wont bother taking advantage of it. Its like the FGW loco hauled services, they were straight swaps of a 150 path. Also when the Pretendalino is out, Virgin never re-bid a path to take account of the slower running, they just take the delay hit.

 

[pemma]

Remember that Virgin used mainly 220s on the route before TPE took it over. Virgin had much longer stops at Preston and Lancaster but the overall journey time on a northbound service between arrival at Preston and arrival at Glasgow/Edinburgh was virtually the same as it is now with TPE, but obviously TPE have less time which can be made up if they arrive at Preston late.

 

[Crossforth]

Well if TPE do take on 180s.... God help them

 

[rail-britain]

Try running your car at 30mph in 3rd gear then put your foot flat down, it would fly away until it hit the rev limiter or blew up if its old.
Now try it in 4th gear, the acceleration would be gentler but it would reach a much higher speed eventually

I always drive at 30mph in 3rd or 4th gear, can easily take me up to 100mph before I would need to change gear (30 to 100mph time is something like 12 seconds)
I would only need to change gear (at about 70mph) if I was in 2nd gear
Different if I was driving in 6th gear...
Might still be at 30mph after waiting 30 seconds!

 

[455driver]

It is all a question of gearing, a small engined car (with low gearing) will sit happily in 5th at 30mph, where-as a bigger engined car (with higher gearing) wont be able to hold 5th gear as it would be working at too low revs.

 

[rail-britain]

My car has a 3 litre engine
The gearing has nothing to do with the engine capacity
At 2nd gear my car is at 1100rpm and in 6th gear my car is at 800rpm (engine stall speed is 600rpm)

My previous car was a 2 litre engine and there is no way it could 70mph in 2nd gear

 

[richw]

My previous car was a 2 litre engine and there is no way it could 70mph in 2nd gear

my 1.6turbo pug 207 will just if i red line each gear, but i wouldnt drive it like that! is my pride and joy

 

[455driver]

My car has a 3 litre engine
The gearing has nothing to do with the engine capacity
At 2nd gear my car is at 1100rpm and in 6th gear my car is at 800rpm (engine stall speed is 600rpm)

My previous car was a 2 litre engine and there is no way it could 70mph in 2nd gear

So you are saying your 3 litre engined car will quite happily run at 800 revs then.

The point I am trying to make (I will use little words) is that a small engined car will normally have lower gearing than a big engined car, or are you saying that is not true!

 

[tbtc]

Glad to see them being used, but:

1. Its not enough for the TPE Scottish services (especially with TPE throwing more units at it at each timetable change)
2. The displaced 185s or 180s are going to be "non standard" at Northern (if, indeed Northern do get a replacement) - better to have 170s go to ScotRail and 158s move to Northern instead?
3. Presumably this would mean an end to the portion working with Barrow services (plus the recently introduced Blackpool portion)

Then again, if this means TPE end up using more 158s on the South Transpennine route (and not two car 170s) I can't complain as much...

 

[rail-britain]

The point I am trying to make (I will use little words) is that a small engined car will normally have lower gearing than a big engined car, or are you saying that is not true!

Vauxhall and Ford must be different then...
Larger engines, lower revs, closer ratios
Smaller engines you need to revs the hell out of them, just to move!

If there is just 300rpm between 2nd and 6th gear, then surely that gear ratio is "low"

 

[David]

Would it improve journey times as well as the 185s can only do 100mph where as the 180s can do 125mph?

I know that 125mph is only permitted for tilting trains on the WCML but aren't there some 110mph stretches they can make up time on?

Nope, as explained above, a 185 can accelerate to 100mph quicker than a 180 (or 220/221) can, which explains why journey times from Manchester didn't increase when the route changed to TPE.

Glad to see them being used, but:

1. Its not enough for the TPE Scottish services (especially with TPE throwing more units at it at each timetable change)
2. The displaced 185s or 180s are going to be "non standard" at Northern (if, indeed Northern do get a replacement) - better to have 170s go to ScotRail and 158s move to Northern instead?
3. Presumably this would mean an end to the portion working with Barrow services (plus the recently introduced Blackpool portion)

Then again, if this means TPE end up using more 158s on the South Transpennine route (and not two car 170s) I can't complain as much...

Over on wnxx, they're discussing the possibility of the 180s staying with Northern, with the other 2 joining them.

However, if the 180s do transfer to TPE, then there is some MIA - Scotland services they can not be used on, as they are diagrammed for a pair of 185s as far as Preston where they then split, the front unit carrying on to Scotland, the rear unit for somewhere in the North West.

PS. I'll settle for some 3 car 158s on the South TPE route instead of the 170s :P

 

[455driver]

Vauxhall and Ford must be different then...
Larger engines, lower revs, closer ratios
Smaller engines you need to revs the hell out of them, just to move! "

Larger engines, lower revs= higher gearing
Smaller engines , higher revs= lower gearing

Is your car faster in first, a lower gear, than it is in 5th, a higher gear.

The lower the revs you are doing for any given speed, the higher the gearing.

Smaller engines you need to revs the hell out of them, just to move! "

No they are just geared lower (by the final drive) to allow the engine to turn faster at lower speed.
My 1.0 litre will pull away quite happily at just above tickover.

If there is just 300rpm between 2nd and 6th gear, then surely that gear ratio is "low"

No its just a close ratio box. At what speed is there 300rpm difference and what actual rpm are you talking about. If you double the speed then you will double the rpm difference between the gears.

 

[WillPS]

Just a thought - is there a chance TPE and Hull Trains could share an allocation of First branded 180s?

 

[rail-britain]

My 1.0 litre will pull away quite happily at just above tickover

I can pull away in 3rd gear, it's the first car I've ever been able to do this with
Other Vectra owners have also remarked on this
1st gear runs to about 30mph, 2nd gear to about 70mph, 3rd gear to about 90mph, 4th gear to about 110mph, 5th gear to about 150mph , 6th gear to a 140mph
I virtually drive in 3rd gear all the time, from 10mph right through to 50mph, after that I use 6th gear (hardly ever use 4th or 5th)