5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Rick1984]

How easy is it to remove a middle car?

 

[mde]

The Conwy Valley is getting just that...

Without wishing to push (further) off topic, I'd suggest there's perhaps a political motivation behind that decision… the Welsh Government and KeolisAmey want to be seen to be doing something given the veritable mishmash of rolling stock that Arriva are currently running. It's showboating.

 

[InOban]

I hadn't heard the suggestion that the 153s be introduced this winter, but it would be possible on the present timetable, because from October to march the FW services are only two coaches, while certain Oban trains load well all winter and passengers might appreciate the extra space.

 

[Journeyman]

Are you aware of just what a financial basket case the West Highland lines are? Very difficult to justify brand new stock for that route.

Quite apart from anything else, WHL diagrams are not captive, and the stock works on other routes during the day. Designing a specialised train will cause no end of problems.

 

[Journeyman]

Price of everything, value of nothing. Of course as pointed out the 156s were new when introduced onto the WHL.

But, then as now, they were used on many routes, and part of their cost-effectiveness is down to their flexibility. The WHL hasn't had route-specific rolling stock for decades, if ever, and the financial justification for that is FAR worse.

 

[mcmad]

Quite apart from anything else, WHL diagrams are not captive, and the stock works on other routes during the day. Designing a specialised train will cause no end of problems.

At the moment, although as more routes out of Queen St are electrified then the more the WHL stock becomes captive. Once SDA goes live then it is only the WHL and Anniesland services that remain as diesel (ignoring the HST 7 cities routes!)

 

[Journeyman]

When loadings are generally much, much lighter?

Winter sports enthusiasts bring a lot of bulky gear with them.

 

[Journeyman]

At the moment, although as more routes out of Queen St are electrified then the more the WHL stock becomes captive. Once SDA goes live then it is only the WHL and Anniesland services that remain as diesel (ignoring the HST 7 cities routes!)

So it's likely that WHL and Anniesland services will interwork. Does Anniesland need a scenic train with catering facilities? I don't think so.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Quite apart from anything else, WHL diagrams are not captive, and the stock works on other routes during the day. Designing a specialised train will cause no end of problems.

There's often an assumption on these fora that diagrams are set in stone and cannot be changed. This clearly is not the case. There are sometimes benefits to having stock dedicated to a particular route because of the unique nature of said route. The West Highland lines being a case in point with heavy tourist traffic in summer and a very different sort of tourist traffic in the winter.

But, then as now, they were used on many routes, and part of their cost-effectiveness is down to their flexibility. The WHL hasn't had route-specific rolling stock for decades, if ever, and the financial justification for that is FAR worse.

The most recent "dedicated stock" for the WHL that I can think of was the "Mexican Bean" class 104 unit in the late 1980s. Did that unit often find itself being used on routes besides the Oban shuttles?

 

[haggishunter]

So it's likely that WHL and Anniesland services will interwork. Does Anniesland need a scenic train with catering facilities? I don't think so.

So you specify the fittings of the train on the basis of a short 12min urban hop and then use it for a service that is over 5 hours long? Priorities just a little bit wrong way round there?

WHL 156s can operate other routes, but other 156s can't operate the WHL due to the radio signalling, so in a sense the stock is captive. Providing it fits the infrastructure (I don't know if it does) having a 3rd car with 'scenic' facilities in a 156 that goes to Anniesland is in no way detrimental to that service or its users.

 

[gingertom]

if Anniesland via Maryhill was electrified we would not be having this conversation.

 

[GrimShady]

Ah, the magic money tree funds everything then.

I've just stated how you make the money. Same as other seasonal businesses.

Nothing magical about that.

 

[GrimShady]

Can I make a comparison?
The traditional ferry service to orkney is provided by a full service ferry which operates twice a day, three times in summer between Scrabster and stromness. By full set I mean that it has a large passenger capacity, and offers everything from a cup of coffee to a full meal. It is highly subsidised, and because the boat weighs thousands of tons, it has a huge carbon footprint.

The recent competition runs a bare bones service between Gill Bay and St Margaret's Hope. It operates up to five times a day, uses much lighter boats which use a fraction of the fuel, with a much smaller crew. It needs no subsidy, and carries the vast majority of the traffic. They're getting another new boat.

It supports the economy of Orkney by allowing people and goods to be carried at lower cost. And personally I think the AYR service to Mull should be similarly provided by a smaller, more basic boat operating a much longer day. No

These tourist-orientated luxury services make no sense unless there are enough people prepared to pay fares which are a multiple of the normal fare. In some cases there are: you can travel between FW and Mallaig and back for around £14.40 on a 156 or £35 on the unsubsidised Jacobite.

So, if you think a luxury service on the rest of the WHL is justified, you have to ask whether there is a market prepared to spend a multiple of standard fare for your enhanced service.

I wouldn't be too sure about the fuel figures, you may find its cheaper to run Hamnavoe on diesel than it is for Pentalina. Its not about weight its about engine speed. Hamnavoe is also an all weather vessel where as Pentalina is not. Hamnavoe was also designed with the ability to relieve Isle of Lewis on the west coast. Penatalina is not a life line service, Hamnavoe is.

The catering facilities on the the Mull run are very, very well used second only to Caledonian Isles on the Arran run.

If nobody tries then we will never know.

 

[Journeyman]

The most recent "dedicated stock" for the WHL that I can think of was the "Mexican Bean" class 104 unit in the late 1980s. Did that unit often find itself being used on routes besides the Oban shuttles?

Wasn't new though, was it? It would have been fully depreciated by then.

 

[Journeyman]

So you specify the fittings of the train on the basis of a short 12min urban hop and then use it for a service that is over 5 hours long? Priorities just a little bit wrong way round there?

WHL 156s can operate other routes, but other 156s can't operate the WHL due to the radio signalling, so in a sense the stock is captive. Providing it fits the infrastructure (I don't know if it does) having a 3rd car with 'scenic' facilities in a 156 that goes to Anniesland is in no way detrimental to that service or its users.

Yes, only 156s with radio signalling can operate on the WHL, but they earn their keep doing other work in between, and the economics of the WHL are so poor that this is absolutely necessary.

Much as I'd like a really nice tourist train on the WHL, it absolutely isn't going to happen because of the need to (a) flexibly interwork with other services and (b) be as economical as possible on a line that burns up money like you wouldn't believe. I don't know how much of a loss the WHL makes, but I suspect it's in the region of millions per year.

I know "cost of everything value of nothing blah blah blah", but this is the real world we're living in. Quite frankly it's a miracle the WHL has survived at all - from a purely public transport point of view, it's an absolute basket case.

 

[43096]

I've just stated how you make the money. Same as other seasonal businesses.

Nothing magical about that.

A lot of the costs are fixed, though - trains (leasing and maintenance), track, signalling, staff are all fairly fixed costs. What would make a big difference would be a higher year-round consistent revenue.

I'll repeat - financially the line is a basket case and always has been. Journeyman's last post is absolutely spot-on.

 

[GrimShady]

When loadings are generally much, much lighter?

Exactly, I can't understand this move if its true.

 

[Carntyne]

The time will come where the WHL will get new or additional stock over and above these 153 units, but I'd wager enough cash is being burned through on the 320/4, 385 and HST introductions for it to be considered for a few years.

 

[GrimShady]

A lot of the costs are fixed, though - trains (leasing and maintenance), track, signalling, staff are all fairly fixed costs. What would make a big difference would be a higher year-round consistent revenue.

I'll repeat - financially the line is a basket case and always has been. Journeyman's last post is absolutely spot-on.

I don't doubt that in its current form the line is a poor performer financially. We're talking about trying to make a better return on those assets. In order to do that it needs more comfortable/better suited stock. It needs to be well marketed and run with a view of more than a simple low quality service.

 

[scotraildriver]

THe first RETB 156 for full refurbishment has enetered the wotks in the shape of 156458. We'll see how well thats received in a few weeks time.

 

[GrimShady]

The time will come where the WHL will get new or additional stock over and above these 153 units, but I'd wager enough cash is being burned through on the 320/4, 385 and HST introductions for it to be considered for a few years.

I would have thought that a follow on order of the 385s customised with a push/pull loco or HSTs would have been the answer, given that both are follow on orders and should be relatively cheap vs new dedicated stock. Both types can be used anywhere on the network if need be.

Class 73s axle loading's are too high for for those lines to meet sprinter differentials.

 

[xotGD]

No-one would dream of ordering brand new stock for the West Highland.

Except for the Mark 5 sleepers, of course.

 

[AMD]

The plan is that WHL diagrams will become self contained from December 2019.

 

[GrimShady]

The plan is that WHL diagrams will become self contained from December 2019.

Self contained? As in stock won't be shared with other services?

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, only 156s with radio signalling can operate on the WHL, but they earn their keep doing other work in between, and the economics of the WHL are so poor that this is absolutely necessary.

agreed, and the 153s are being talked about as simply a powered centre car which is why this is such a good idea...

Self contained? As in stock won't be shared with other services?

That's my usual (maybe even the normal) understanding of the term!

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Sprinters offered considerable cost savings over both LHCS and the old bog carts - effectively they were bought on a 2 replace 3 basis - so there was a clear business case for doing so. How much of a cost saving would new stock on the West Highland offer over 156s or 158s?

Remember the situation. The old LHCS was fully depreciated, so the capital cost was essentially nil. The primary cost was operational. Putting the 156s on the line meant a big bit of upfront capital cost was required. Why do it on a basket-case line? Because the cost savings from using the 156s was more than sufficient to justify the upfront capital cost. It was an example of investing to save.

Today, the 156s are getting closer to the position the LHCS was back then. The cost of running old rolling stock does not decrease with time - it increases. Refitting them to have modern passenger comforts like air conditioning, retention toilets, power sockets and so on doesn't extend their real working life. If anything, it decreases it, as it increases the physical demands on the other components and structure.

The greatest problem of major refurbishments is that they involve installing the same sorts of components which go into new trains, but at higher cost, as they cannot be properly designed alongside and around the rolling stock. Essentially all you would be left with is the big chunks of metal which hold the bodyshell together, and that actually reflects a relatively small amount of the value in a modern train. This is why the Vivarail Class 230 programme has essentially fallen flat on its face - the cost of doing up a mechanically reasonable old train to modern standards is about 2/3rds of the cost of a brand new train with a service life several times longer.

Doing nothing isn't actually an option. The 156s cannot be economically life-extended forever and ever. They'll need replaced, but there is really not a lot of rolling stock that would be able to replace them. We've never really had to replace 156s on routes, since until now they've been perfectly reasonable trains which are by no means the worst on the network. What stock would you suggest instead anyway? The 158s are of similar vintage and aren't going to last that much longer in service. The Networker/Turbostar design isn't at all suited for the WHL given the lack of end doors and end gangways. If there are no other trains in service which could practically take on the WHL roles, then the only real option is to buy new.

When you're at the point of buying new, you have to consider whether you're doing the same thing as BR in the first place. BR needed a go-anywhere train design that could do everything from suburban hops to 5-hour former LHCS routes. Today, that's not really the case. There's been significant changes on the rest of the network which mean a one-size-fits-all train is unlikely to be suitable. In ScotRail-land there has been a significant shift towards the 38X template of 100mph commuter EMUs which are fundamentally unsuitable for rural routes - loco-haulage of EMUs is not a sensible option on routes which are likely going to be self-powered for the lifetime of the train. Meanwhile, the longer-distance InterCity runs are being handed over to more InterCity-style stock. That means the possible scope for a 156 replacement really would just be routes which qualify as vaguely scenic. That is, Inverness to anywhere not the Central Belt, the WHL and G&SW/Stranraer.

Given that Angel Trains has proposed some fairly absurd renovations of 156s it's not really credible to say that other train builders wouldn't be interested in building a dedicated scenic product. It doesn't really take that much to qualify as a 'scenic' train anyway. Most of the passenger-facing improvements are really just about the internal layout and features. Bike spaces, perfect seat alignment, good catering, etc are all things which could be fitted to any design of train if you asked. Hull Trains had four 170s with a full InterCity layout. This is what I would expect as an absolute minimum, because there's not a vast amount of risk for a ROSCO. In the worst-case scenario the shiny interior can be replaced with a bog-standard commuter one and the trains used on any of the other self-powered routes around GB. Whether the train manufacturers go beyond this is just a question of how cheaply configurable their product is. Since the Greater Anglia fleet was announced I think a lot of people have expected great things from Stadler, as they've demonstrated willingness to make tiny fleets of scenic trains for various Swiss railways.

So it's likely that WHL and Anniesland services will interwork. Does Anniesland need a scenic train with catering facilities? I don't think so.

Anniesland is likely going to be electrified either before or simultaneously with the introduction of any 156 replacement stock for the WHL. In doing so, it makes it more likely that the replacement train would be a bi-mode as electric power would then be available from Queen Street to Craigendoran. There's a big risk involved in buying a new diesel fleet for a route with a busy semi-underground terminus at the end.

The time will come where the WHL will get new or additional stock over and above these 153 units, but I'd wager enough cash is being burned through on the 320/4, 385 and HST introductions for it to be considered for a few years.

The WHL replacement fleet will probably happen with the new ScotRail franchise starting 2022-2025. There's no real need to worry about it for the moment, but with the prospect of EK/Barrhead/Anniesland wiring the question of Glasgow DMU allocations and servicing is really going to be on the minds of bidders.

 

[Rick1984]

That means the possible scope for a 156 replacement really would just be routes which qualify as vaguely scenic. That is, Inverness to anywhere not the Central Belt, the WHL and G&SW/Stranraer.

I do think a 3 or 4 car bi-mode with a scenic car from Stadler would be perfect. I imagine no more expensive than any other modern multiple unit

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think a 3 or 4 car bi-mode with a scenic car from Stadler would be perfect. I imagine no more expensive than any other modern multiple unit

Or if you had to do it cheaper...you could do something with a 4-car Class 170 - the windows are quite big. OK, not full on panoramic, but if you fitted good seats all in bays with tables, First Class (aka money for old rope - the tourists would cough up), a buffet counter with bar area, space for say 6 bikes (you could do that in an end section) etc it would be very nice indeed.

But yes, this is exactly Stadler's sort of thing if building new!

 

[43096]

Or if you had to do it cheaper...you could do something with a 4-car Class 170 - the windows are quite big. OK, not full on panoramic, but if you fitted good seats all in bays with tables, First Class (aka money for old rope - the tourists would cough up), a buffet counter with bar area, space for say 6 bikes (you could do that in an end section) etc it would be very nice indeed.

You mean ScotRail shouldn't have ripped the buffet counters out of 170393-396?!

Incidentally, with all the talk about 156s, has the plan to use 158s - which are being refurbed as the scenic railways trains - on the West Highland been changed?

 

[Rick1984]

a hot-cold food trolley with a good selection of quality Scottish fare should suffice. Both for the 153 and future stock.